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Thread: Fake Daytona

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    Well, not quite.

    The papers would give it away. Either the buyer would get the original paperwork and then watch and papers wouldn't match - or he would get fake paperwork and then invoice and watch/paperwork wouldn't match. Provided the AD would have a system to make sure correct serial (as delivered from Rolex) would be on the invoice (expected) and buyer would check serial number against paper work/watch (strongly recommended, if only to avoid other trouble like mixed up watches).
    I bet lots of people leave an AD with a nice new watch having not checked the serial number against the papers. They could then wear the cuckoo watch for years only to discover its true status perhaps years later when it fails or goes for service. Then what?

  2. #202
    You havenít got a leg to stand on.

    Cheers
    Rory

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    I bet lots of people leave an AD with a nice new watch having not checked the serial number against the papers. They could then wear the cuckoo watch for years only to discover its true status perhaps years later when it fails or goes for service. Then what?
    Anybody who spends 10k on a watch without checking the serial number needs their head examined.

    There are plenty of people who do stupid things, they will have to accept responsibility for their actions (or non-actions). It's as simple as that.
    Который час в москве?

  4. #204
    Although a cross check between watch and warranty card would be normal. How would an AD react if you started asking to check the watch you received was the intended one from the manufacturer?

    Cheers
    Rory

  5. #205
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    I recently bought a lovely 16700 from a forum stalwart. Can I now pay 5% of the purchase price, say £425, to ensure (insure) it is not a fake?

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyman View Post
    I recently bought a lovely 16700 from a forum stalwart. Can I now pay 5% of the purchase price, say £425, to ensure (insure) it is not a fake?
    If you can find someone you trust (and all the staff involved) that offers the service then I guess so. Let’s face it we could all take paranoia to extreme levels and end up trusting no one - that would be a pretty horrible world to live in though.

    Cheers
    Rory

  7. #207
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    FWIW when buying from an AD I always check the watch to the card to the tag etc.

    Docs are kept in packs and separate from watches and boxes. It's easy enough to mismatch the two although I have always seen the AD check as if it does happen they will be left with a watch with the wrong docs... I guess it could be resolved by Rolex, but I'm sure the principle will be not best pleased.

  8. #208
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    Fakes

    I wonder if someone who is very good at sleight of hand saw a watch in a jewellers window, went in with a fake copy of exactly the same watch would the assistant check the serial number after the customer has handed the watch back.
    When I bought my wifeís second hand Cartier from a local hop I checked the serial number against the paperwork before paying for it

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    So if I say that if "someone is painting a watch on their wrist because they want a bigger collection, test drive, stunt double, watch theyíll never justify a level of spending on, thatís their choice. Like it or not itís another branch of this hobby" - then I have not implied that I think it's okay that they painted on the watch?
    I donít think youíve implied anything, just that you acknowledge itís existance - like it or not.

    You can keep spinning it, just as I have in the modified scenario, but the OP didnít say it was ok.

  10. #210
    Craftsman ChromeJob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    So if I say that if "someone is stealing a watch because they want a bigger collection, test drive, stunt double, watch they’ll never justify a level of spending on, that’s their choice. Like it or it it’s another branch of this hobby" - then I have not implied that I think it's okay that they stole the watch?
    You're continuing to troll Rory IMHO, I think he's made his meaning quite clear. I for one read his first post that you're "quoting" and understood his meaning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    Anybody who spends 10k on a watch without checking the serial number needs their head examined.

    There are plenty of people who do stupid things, they will have to accept responsibility for their actions (or non-actions). It's as simple as that.
    There's no shortage of those types in this world.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47201923
    Last edited by ChromeJob; 13th February 2019 at 20:39. Reason: adding reply

  11. #211
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    Yeah I am one , itís never once occurred to me to cross reference a new watch bought from an authorised dealer.
    I suspect I am in the majority .


    Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

  12. #212
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    I also understood Rory first time .


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  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitz View Post
    I also understood Rory first time .


    Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app
    Agreed.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    Anybody who spends 10k on a watch without checking the serial number needs their head examined.
    Oh no... That's exactly what I did last week. But... It was the only model of that watch they had delivered, and I'll make sure that I check the serial against the warranty serials tonight :)
    It's just a matter of time...

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by AUDISTEVE2 View Post
    I wonder if someone who is very good at sleight of hand saw a watch in a jewellers window, went in with a fake copy of exactly the same watch would the assistant check the serial number after the customer has handed the watch back.
    When I bought my wifeís second hand Cartier from a local hop I checked the serial number against the paperwork before paying for it
    Entirely possible - especially if they were Ďplausibleí.

  16. #216
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    lots of examples of jewellery/money theft on youtube using sleight of hand, so my guess is that watches in stores would suffer the same experience.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC180 View Post
    FWIW when buying from an AD I always check the watch to the card to the tag etc.

    Docs are kept in packs and separate from watches and boxes. It's easy enough to mismatch the two although I have always seen the AD check as if it does happen they will be left with a watch with the wrong docs... I guess it could be resolved by Rolex, but I'm sure the principle will be not best pleased.
    I have a 1655 purchased from AD in 1984 where the original papers don't match the serial number on the case, apparently it occurs quite often.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by AUDISTEVE2 View Post
    I wonder if someone who is very good at sleight of hand saw a watch in a jewellers window, went in with a fake copy of exactly the same watch would the assistant check the serial number after the customer has handed the watch back.
    When I bought my wifeís second hand Cartier from a local hop I checked the serial number against the paperwork before paying for it
    That happens.

    I know of someone who bought a watch from a reputable major seller and the watch was fake and had obviously been swapped at some point.

    They were refunded instantly.



    Mitch

  19. #219
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    I purchased a used Submariner recently from a private individual. He wasn't the original owner and for some reason the warranty card was stamped but not dated.

    I contacted the supplying AD who refused to give me the original purchase date because of their GDPR policy. Their advice was to contact head office.

    Head office asked me to email a scan of the warranty card and promised to get back to me. When they responded, the same result. They refused to give me the original purchase date because of their GDPR policy. Their suggestion was to contact Rolex.

    Rolex told me that they would not supply me any information because the manufacturing date is confidential and only the supplying dealer would know the date of sale.

    Nobody was interested in the serial number for my watch because they weren't willing to provide any information at all.

    Solution.

    I contacted another dealer within the same group and told them I was interested in purchasing a brand new Day-Date. Whilst chatting, I asked if he could do me a little favour. 10 minutes later he phoned me back with the purchase date for my watch.

    If this is how difficult it is to obtain a simple piece of information regarding a genuine watch that I actually own, what chance do we all have trying to authenticate a potential purchase?
    Last edited by Wazza; 14th February 2019 at 17:52.

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
    That happens.

    I know of someone who bought a watch from a reputable major seller and the watch was fake and had obviously been swapped at some point.

    They were refunded instantly.

    Mitch
    Surely any retailer who doesn't have the confidence or systems to prevent substitution is open to massive fraud? Dishonest Dick buys a genuine watch then two months later takes back a fake and says "you sold me this, money back please!" They would surely have investigated and tested his claim first? That is, unless they knew they had problems such as bent staff....but even then to pay out instantly without further investigation would be extraordinary. Do you have any more details?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wazza View Post
    I purchased a used Submariner recently from a private individual. He wasn't the original owner and for some reason the warranty card was stamped but not dated.

    I contacted the supplying AD who refused to give me the original purchase date because of their GDPR policy. Their advice was to contact head office.

    Head office asked me to email a scan of the warranty card and promised to get back to me. When they responded, the same result. They refused to give me the original purchase date because of their GDPR policy. Their suggestion was to contact Rolex.

    Rolex told me that they would not supply me any information because the manufacturing date is confidential and only the supplying dealer would know the date of sale.

    Nobody was interested in the serial number for my watch because they weren't willing to provide any information at all.

    Solution.

    I contacted another dealer within the same group and told them I was interested in purchasing a brand new Day-Date. Whilst chatting, I asked if he could do me a little favour. 10 minutes later he phoned me back with the purchase date for my watch.

    If this is how difficult it is to obtain a simple piece of information regarding a genuine watch that I actually own, what chance do we all have trying to authenticate a potential purchase?
    How does information about the date of sale relate to authenticity at some later point in time, for a watch which may or may not legitimately bear the number Rolex or the AD have on record?
    Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 14th February 2019 at 18:04.

  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    Surely any retailer who doesn't have the confidence or systems to prevent substitution is open to massive fraud? Dishonest Dick buys a genuine watch then two months later takes back a fake and says "you sold me this, money back please!" They would surely have investigated and tested his claim first?



    How does information about the date of sale relate to authenticity at some later point in time, for a watch which may or may not legitimately bear the number Rolex or the AD have on record?
    I agree.

    My point is that the new GDPR legislation is scaring AD's not to enter into any discussion unless it's with the original purchaser.

    I could have written a 2018 purchase date for a watch that was actually sold in 2012. And with the knowledge that the AD would refuse to confirm or deny the authenticity of the purchase date on the warranty card at a later date.

    That would have been a good fraud if I wasn't so honest.
    Last edited by Wazza; 14th February 2019 at 20:03.

  22. #222
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    Details like the style of warranty card, holder, swing-tags and boxes, or the date coding of booklets, would typically trip up your hypothetical, darker self in that specific scenario.

    Thereís usually a way to see whatís what, if you consider all angles.

  23. #223
    Master Wazza's Avatar
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    You are the expert Haywood but not all AD's share the same level of expertise or as I found out today, willingness to be of any help at all.

  24. #224
    Craftsman ChromeJob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wazza View Post
    I purchased a used Submariner recently from a private individual. He wasn't the original owner and for some reason the warranty card was stamped but not dated.

    I contacted the supplying AD who refused to give me the original purchase date because of their GDPR policy. Their advice was to contact head office.

    Head office asked me to email a scan of the warranty card and promised to get back to me. When they responded, the same result. They refused to give me the original purchase date because of their GDPR policy. Their suggestion was to contact Rolex.

    Rolex told me that they would not supply me any information because the manufacturing date is confidential and only the supplying dealer would know the date of sale.

    Nobody was interested in the serial number for my watch because they weren't willing to provide any information at all.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    ... How does information about the date of sale relate to authenticity at some later point in time, for a watch which may or may not legitimately bear the number Rolex or the AD have on record?
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    Details like the style of warranty card, holder, swing-tags and boxes, or the date coding of booklets, would typically trip up your hypothetical, darker self in that specific scenario.

    There’s usually a way to see what’s what, if you consider all angles.
    You're the expert as to whether a DATED warranty card is a better assurance of the provenance of a pre-owned watch (two or more owners), but speaking only for my naive self as a hypothetical pre-owned buyer,* a warranty card that wasn't completed per the rules of Hoyle would put me back on my heels a little. If a second or later owner went to the original AD and asked for the authentic paperwork to be verified and filled in correctly, why wouldn't they? This is how IMHO ADs earn trust and loyalty, by being a haven of service and support long after the sale, regardless if you're their original customer, or a new one coming into them with a watch they sold before. In fact, this is a superb way to earn NEW customers. It's a pretty old and reliable story, me thinks.

    * Listing: "Pre-owned Rolex, circa 2012, in VG condition with B&P. The papers weren't filled out properly, but we're very sure they're authentic. Trust us." Yeah, right. :-\

    The behavior Wazza described would put those ADs on my short list of "never return." Would they suffer? Probably not. But word of mouth has a habit of spreading like influenza.

    I'm not a GDPR expert, but knowing the month and year of a sale of a watch that I owned doesn't seem like such a violation.
    Last edited by ChromeJob; 14th February 2019 at 21:20.

  25. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by ChromeJob View Post
    I'm not a GDPR expert, but knowing the month and year of a sale of a watch that I owned doesn't seem like such a violation.
    Were you the original buyer?

    If not you are asking for personal spending information of an individual from a data controller without the data subjects consent. In certain circumstances it could well fall within their own data privacy policy (dependent on how it is written) to not provide that information.
    It's just a matter of time...

  26. #226
    Craftsman ChromeJob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omegamanic View Post
    Were you the original buyer?

    If not you are asking for personal spending information of an individual from a data controller without the data subjects consent. In certain circumstances it could well fall within their own data privacy policy (dependent on how it is written) to not provide that information.
    Entirely plausible. But I donít think the secondhand owner is asking for personal spending information, or even the identity of the buyer. ONLY the month and year (perhaps date) of the original sale. Thatís it. I think protecting that non-personal nugget of info is overly cautious.

    Iím familiar with US HIPAA regs, itís personally identifying information that has to be protected, not generic info like ďprovider, date, type of service.Ē

  27. #227
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    The supply of fake warranty cards in its own right should be a cause of great concern to anyone buying Rolex watches at the moment.

    In my opinion, most of the trade (including main agents) is hopelessly ill-prepared to spot them.

    Dishonest idiots like this chap pop up steadily on places like Instagram, where they may promote their cards with effective anonymity.



    Note that he is explicitly promoting the purchase of the fake cards in order to replace genuine cards that have been withheld by main agents, as with the BLNR. It is easy to see that some will be tempted to spend perhaps £30 on one of these bent cards in order to sell their watch for what might be over a thousand pounds more, if they can find a buyer who does not realise the card is fake:



    Dare we imagine how many watches (real or fake) are being sold with fake warranty cards to individuals through Chrono24, eBay, Shpock or even watch fora?

    As for that Watches of Switzerland receipt......yes, point of sale till receipts exactly like that are being faked as well, creating a "full package" whether with fake or genuine watch.

    Cards can be ordered to the specific details required by the dishonest. Just supply the watch numbers, territory code, main agent details etc :



    They'll pass the UV test which most in the trade probably didn't even know about :





    If any tz-uk member of bona fides is in doubt about a warranty card, they may take good photos of front and back and send them to me. I will be happy to give an opinion and am confident that the current crop of fake cards may easily be identified, once you know what to look for. Couple of pounds to the tz-fundraiser might be nice, but entirely optional.

    Haywood
    Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 17th February 2019 at 16:10.

  28. #228
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post

    Dare we imagine how many watches (real or fake) are being sold with fake warranty cards to individuals through Chrono24, eBay, Shpock or even watch fora?
    And yet practically all wtbs on here want their Rolex watches as ďfull setsĒ with b&p!

    Go figure.

  29. #229
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    Me thinking about posting in this thread..


  30. #230
    Freaky..

  31. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by julian2002 View Post
    Me thinking about posting in this thread..

    Lol. VG.

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