This fake Daytona was offered to a Finnish dealer.
Be careful when buying pre-owned.
This fake Daytona was offered to a Finnish dealer.
Be careful when buying pre-owned.
What are the indicators that its fake? Presumably there should be a hologram visible where the UV light is being pointed on the warranty card.
No, no hologram. The illustrator is showing us that the card reacts to a UV torch, as does a genuine card.Originally Posted by Gerald Genta
I am pleased to say that for other reasons this card may instantly be dismissed as fake.
Tell you how? Sorry, no.
So there is a clear reason to know why the card id fake. Glad to know that.
Unfortunately I think that the card would fool 99% of individuals and probably 80% of pre-owned dealers.
Last edited by EJL25; 6th February 2019 at 16:58.
As someone who was trained on 4130's even the movement is a good fake. Obviously to the familiar eye the finish of the movement is poor, but the plates are the right size and shape, the mechanics are the same too. They have reverse engineered the movement, just missing out the nice details, like end shake adjustment, free sprung balance etc.
Understood and makes sense. Can the same be said of the watch? Or is the card the main / initial indicator?
Watch itself passable at a glance but upon close inspection, fail.
I'm just working through a report on this carton of Superfake stuff :
They are pouring into the country and appearing in all quarters having fooled private buyers and many a naive trader / jeweller alike. Sixteen boxes in this photo...
Some in the trade will look and learn. Many others will bury their head in the sand.....and pay the price.
H
Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 7th February 2019 at 10:59.
It feels increasingly like the only place to safely buy a used Rolex is from Haywood's shop!
I bet a few people are checking the cards right now making sure the serial number isn't OH4K9991 :-)
Watch itself passable at a glance but upon close inspection, fail.
I'm just working through a report on this carton of Superfake stuff :
They are pouring into the country and appearing in all quarters having fooled private buyers and many a naive trader / jeweller alike. Eighteen boxes in this photo...
Some in the trade will look and learn. Many others will bury their head in the sand.....and pay the price.
H
HM, are these seized items? Seized during importation by Customs?Watch itself passable at a glance but upon close inspection, fail.
I'm just working through a report on this carton of Superfake stuff :
They are pouring into the country and appearing in all quarters having fooled private buyers and many a naive trader / jeweller alike. Eighteen boxes in this photo...
Some in the trade will look and learn. Many others will bury their head in the sand.....and pay the price.
H
As someone who purchased from you 6 months ago, I am glad that it has landed on your desk for a forgery report.
Is the correct answer
Why? because the fakers would know how to make improvements to their fakes.
Great work HM for providing yet another reason not to buy from anyone unless they have rock solid reputation.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
smug?Is the correct answer
Why? because the fakers would know how to make improvements to their fakes.
The fakers already know where their goods are lacking.
The only people losing here are buyers who are being conned.
Bingo.
This is my point too. Using the line about not letting them know is laughable. They will know exactly where they’re going wrong as they’re the ones trying to copy these things with the resources they currently have.
I understood that the warranty card is like it should be or very close.
Apparently the movement was the only clear indicator that it was fake.
Poppycock. It may have been the only thing the observer was able to identify, which is a different matter.
Hand cream or greater experience in Rolex watches? It is unclear for which the need is more pressing.
Rolex should utilize your services. Assuming they can afford it:-)
I’m not sure I get the joke, but I’m laughing all the same. I always enjoy threads that you participate in.
Rather scary that this Daytona is a ringer, as the accompanying paperwork materials look quality enough (for my naive eye) to be genuine. Teh preowned Rolex market seems clearly in the Mos Eisley realm of “we must be cautious.”
The used market is a absolute minefield.
Given the quality of the fakes I'd want to be 100% certain the retailer I was buying from could spot this stuff ... that means there are only a few used retailers in the UK i would trust.
I wonder how often someone takes their pride & joy to Rolex for a service only to be told the bad news ... it is fake ...
Seriously, if he thinks that then he may like to purchase a copy of this : https://www.miltonaires.com/2018-rol...and-comparison
It's available only to members of the trade who are of demonstrable bona fides. 20% to the tz-uk fund-raiser if he does.
There's a whole section on the current warranty cards which would have helped him smell that instantly. They're going to become a more sinister problem for the unwary, as the cards are available to order for about £30 and the unscrupulous will start to put them not only with SuperFakes, but also with genuine watches that do not have their original card. This could be because they are stolen, or simply to add value where they are missing.
H
Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 7th February 2019 at 11:04.
H,
Do you think AD’s keeping the warranty cards may actually compound this problem, where people buy a “hooky” card just so they can sell the watch into grey?
Yes, and at this moment I think very few in the trade are even switched on to the risk, let alone armed to detect it.
As for private buyers, there will be tears in due course.
It's not going to take long for that information to get out though is it? Given the substantial profits to be made from SuperFakes then it's well worth slipping £10k to a contact with access to a copy.
Each copy is digitally and visually unique for security, but I agree about the information thereon. However, it comes back to the diminishing returns for the fakers. If they can get past 90% of their potential market, why bother to work twenty times as hard to try to get closer to 100%?
I'm confident that many of the aspects identified are effectively impossible correctly to reproduce.
Who is this Hayward guy? I don't see him listed with 𝑵𝒂𝒕𝒊𝒐𝒏𝒂𝒍 𝑵𝒂𝒕𝒊𝒐𝒏𝒂𝒍 National Pawnbrokers Association. Must be fake:-)
Best money I spent for a good while buying the super fake document from you Haywood. The fakes are getting better and better which is a huge concern for us in the trade. With some of these fakes you really do need to know what you are doing and require very close inspection with a loupe in various giveaway parts of the watch, the differences are minuscule on some parts like the Lasered glass, it really is the fine details that are the giveaways. Same goes for the warranty cards, fine details show the fakes to stand out quite clearly.
Scary times for dealers and private buyers/sellers that aren’t in the know :(
There is, of course, a philosophical issue here; what if some fakes fool even the experts....because then we really are in trouble. It might have already happened. How would anyone know?
I guess check the serial number with Rolex, if they'll do that. Or insist on a service before buying?
Fails on both counts.
The SuperFakes are being given case numbers, sometimes individually, which the crooks have ensured match correct examples of the right model and period. While those illustrated above have used the same case number (and have fake cards describing UK supply in 2015), that number was correctly applied to a 116610LN....
....but supplied in 2016, outside the UK.
A service through a Rolex service centre might be definitive ONLY for the person who has it carried out. It is not unknown for the unscrupulous to have a watch serviced, swap out parts and then offer it for sale the same day with apparently impeccable credentials. For example, if someone has a Rolex with a diamond bezel serviced and on return immediately swaps that bezel for one of the better generic ones, how many buyers would spot it? How many would be reassured by the Rolex service card, even documentation describing the diamond bezel? The rotter has obtained a £6,000 part for the price of an £800 one.
It is also clear that not all Rolex service centres have the same level of skills. Rolex UK may be excellent at identifying correct military-issue Submariners, where others elsewhere in the world may not.
Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 7th February 2019 at 11:31.
oh man, sounds like we don't stand a chance against the fakes ! On a positive note it can only be good for your business Haywood with people getting the real mccoy from yourself.
Doesn't really help me to be honest. For some time my sales have been limited by the number of watches I can source and the amount of time I can devote to the Rolex, which make up only about 10% of my business, rather than the number of buyers looking for them.
So you are telling us not to rely on a rolex service alone as evidence the watch is genuine. But rather to only buy from a reliable source? Is there a list of reliable sources? It all sounds pot luck!
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If you were the one who had the Rolex service done for you, that would be fine. If a dealer or seller of bona fides had it done, this should be fine. Just be aware that a watch can be messed with in less than an hour, so ask yourself if you are confident in those hands it has been in since Rolex service, if any.
Yes, I would suggest otherwise buying only from sources who seem to have sound knowledge, have a reputation to protect and are big enough that in the event of a dispute you could realistically bring a claim against them and expect to realise what you were due.
Buying from private individuals is not for the faint-hearted. What is their level of knowledge? Where did they get the watch from? Will they be willing to repay you in the event of a problem regarding authenticity or legal title? Will they be able to repay you?
There could never be an agreed list of sound sources, but regular involvement in watch fora might throw up some useful indicators.
As with many things, what seems at first like pot luck can in fact be made rather more scientific, if you are prepared to make the effort.
In your hypothetical scenario of perfect replicas, the problem would quickly come to light.
When a watch bearing the same case number was taken in for service not long after another had been serviced in the same country or elsewhere, questions would be raised. "We just serviced this watch in London. Why does it bear no service marks? We fitted a new rotor, but this one is clearly damaged. The client declined to replace the gouged case-back, but this one's perfect," and so on.
As it happens, I do not think the scenario likely. There are so many naive / careless individual and trade buyers in the world that the baddies need to do only 75% of the job to fool 90%+ of the total market, which would make them quite enough money.
The time and expense of doing the job perfectly, if indeed it could be done, would make it one of diminishing returns.
Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 7th February 2019 at 11:17.
Is there a list somewhere of known fake serials? Will be helpful in at a minimum prevent a purchase.
I've spotted a fake rolex bracelet once on eBay by just googling the serial of the watch it apparently came off.
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Bloody Scary
Surely you jest, sir. The minute such a thing were published, it would be invalid.
Surely the best way would be to see if the glass has the crown etched on? Is it etched?
It's lasered.
It's been copied for some years now.
The latest ones are exceptionally good and I would expect to fool most people.
In any event, this identifies only one component. Those who imagine that verifying one part proves the whole is real may find themselves with a lot of part-fake watches.
The sensible route would be, buy new from AD or only from a reputable second hand seller who can spot these things. Other than Miltons who else can spot them?
I don't have any reason to doubt authenticity of my Rolexes bought on secondary market (none of them is a current model except a DSSD bought from a friend right after release ). But, things like these make you wonder. I would be very hesitant to buy a Rolex from a watch forum nowadays. Even if seller is not trying to deceive, he himself might be under the illusion that he is selling a genuine Rolex.
So you wouldn’t trust Haywood Milton?
Not until I met him and had a chat etc, it's nothing personal, just business.
However he seems to be up there, so probably yes.
However I don't trust you and you would be a mug to trust me.
TBH anyone who accepts that as a Genuine 116500 shouldn't be trading in watches. I do hope the Finnish dealer didn't accept it. There are so many issues with the dial alone, let alone opening it to check the movement.This fake Daytona was offered to a Finnish dealer.
Be careful when buying pre-owned.
If someone knowingly or unknowingly took a Rolex “super fake” to a Rolex AD to trade in against a new watch, would the AD spot it for the fake it is? If not, then that fake could end up amongst the used/second hand stock.
Until now, I thought that buying a used Rolex from a Rolex AD was one of the safe options to acquiring a used watch but I’m not so sure now.
If you live in a region with limited Rolex ADs then this is potentially a serious issue.
The dial colour/finish looks rubbish to my eye, just the over all glancing initial ‘wow’ factor. I find with watches the initial look counts for a lot. Same with vintage Seiko’s now, the pogues & pandas. If in any doubt with the initial glance they’re no doubt fake. If you have to start looking at the details it’s already over. Obviously I’m just talking about the initial look but it’s amazing how good the brain is at things feeling off when you’re tuned into them.
I still don’t get the whole “don’t tell them your name Pike” thing with not saying the details. Even my Mrs could sit there and play spot the difference if she had the real thing as a reference, you know like the fakers would.
The fakers know all the differences better than most people trying to authenticate them. Saying “don’t point out the differences as it tells them where they’re going wrong” is pretty daft surely? There’s a couple of people that always do this on Rolex forums. The silly thing is the fact that they call a piece out as fake is all anyone watching would need to know to improve their game (if anyone really needs to be watching a forum to know their copy isn’t perfect) and they sure as hell know the areas themselves. The only people who’d be educated on the differences would be the people who don’t really care, people reading who just don’t see the details or are just marvelling at the copy.
I’m interested in what people think about so called genuine Rolex movements ‘flooding the streets’ in the US? (words of an authenticator on TRF) News supposedly circulated by some authentication service.
That particular Daytona in the OP is rubbish. There’s much much better out there that playing spot the difference would be very risky where thousands of pounds are at stake.
If you want to learn how to identify a fake and wouldn't be granted access to Miltons document I'd suggest having a look at the replica watch forums, they are perhaps more obsessive about the minute 'tells' that identify a fake and endlessly argue about which factory produces the best base to build their frankenwatch on than many a WIS. A quick google reveals multiple threads regarding warranty cards for example.
On the subject of warranty cards I'd certainly like to know if the electronic version supplied by Breitling has been faked successfully.
I wasn’t referring to myself wanting to know about it, I was meaning I don’t understand why people say “we can’t tell you the details” when people inevitably ask on these types of threads.
If someone was to say the “hair spring is wrong” do we really think the bloke that made it is sitting there on his laptop in China thinking... “ahh, sugar! The hair spring is wrong I thought it was identical. Back to the drawing board” No, because he knows the hair spring is wrong and that’s the best he can currently do for his budget/skill/production capability etc
Ultimately these super fakes are made to either be sold to people who for some reason would spend quite a large amount of money knowing it’s fake (which is silly as even the dial looks rubbish) or they’re made to deceive people that aren’t experts and may fall for the “too good to be true” deal so why not educate everyone. Reason being IMO is that experts can guarantee their stock’s authenticity and have an edge over buying private (fair enough) and authentication companies like the one in the states that people pay to sign up to can exist.
If someone said “I’m not telling the differences because we’re a business and our business is selling certified, genuine watches” I’d get that more than someone saying “we don’t want the fakers to know what they’re doing wrong”
Quoting from an earlier post
"Ultimately these super fakes are made to either be sold to people who for some reason would spend quite a large amount of money knowing it’s fake (which is silly as even the dial looks rubbish) or they’re made to deceive people that aren’t experts and may fall for the “too good to be true” deal so why not educate everyone. Reason being IMO is that experts can guarantee their stock’s authenticity and have an edge over buying private (fair enough) and authentication companies like the one in the states that people pay to sign up to can exist. "
Not that I am particularly interested in Rolex , but, "quite a lot of money knowing it's fake" makes me wonder how much one of these obviously quite well made fakes cost to manufacture and , are they openly sold as "honest" copies of the originals a swell as being designed to actively fool buyers?
In the classic car business it isn't uncommon for "recreations" of particularly rare models to be openly sold as such, in addition to the willfully created fakes pretending to be legit .
Last edited by notnowkato; 8th February 2019 at 17:20.
Those hands have been cutting fire wood?This fake Daytona was offered to a Finnish dealer.
Be careful when buying pre-owned.
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