I'm in the process of buying a house. We've just had the surveyor's report that has highlighted a few issues. The house was explicitly advertised as having been maintained without regard to cost. The Surveyor disagrees, observing that while key items have indeed been replaced with quality, the wiring, piping and so on are original - in a house from the mid sixties, he also identified a range of issues and gave a detailed cost breakdown that added up to fifteen grand or so.
I've contacted the seller and given them the surveyor's conclusions. I suggested that we split the cost halfway, firstly because some of the issues, repointing, heavily mossed up roof, woodworm in the garage and so on, I'd already taken account of and secondly because it just seemed a decent way to divide an unexpected expense. The seller flatly disagrees, and apparently assumed that my offer was absolutely final, despite the fact that I was clear that this was dependent on the survey but has 'gone away to think about it'.
Now I'm aware that I'm insane to buy a house right now and that the market is on the edge of a Brexit, Trump and bubbly freefall, but needs must and all that. My question is whether asking for such a split is taking the mickey. I confess I've never had an issue with this stage of negotiation and this has come as a bit of a surprise.
Opinions?
It all comes down to how much you want the house really, doesn't it. If you have to have it, and the seller sticks to his price you'll have to pay it. If not and you think it makes it overpriced with the work, walk away.
We've found some things that needed doing since we moved in Jan last year, and not picked up by the survey either! Would it have changed our minds if we'd known about them, probably not because we really wanted the property. Sometimes money isn't everything.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
If it was Sussex surveyors I would take their advice with a pinch of salt, I have used them for three properties now and their lack of investigation and blatant surmising of condition was legendary, on one property they suggested it needed a new roof due to moss coverage, no inspection done or even a visit into the loft as they had no ladders!!!!!
roof was fine.
its tough particularly if you really want the house
one of the biggest issues these days is Surveyors P.I. insurance , hence most surveyors are overly critical so they don't get comeback / claims
roof moss is an easy job specialists will get on roof and pressure wash it all off
re electrics you might be better getting a trusted electrician to take a look as they will IMHO give you a better opinion than a building surveyor
and no your not mad buying a house now providing you buy it right but then that always applies.
I would seek opinions from a builder, speaks and electrician as well - sounds as though the utilities are good but another opinion can sometimes be beneficial
If woodworm has been identified in the garage I would want a thorough inspection of the roof timbers as well - it could well be elsewhere (Ii speak from personal experience). Moss on the roof can be sorted easily enough.
Surveyors can be over cautious at best for reasons already posted.
Last edited by Chris_in_the_UK; 19th January 2019 at 18:47.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Matt,Originally Posted by M4tt
While I don't know your circumstances and are not asking you to tell the forum, I would question 'needs must'. Is it an aversion of renting generally that leads to this comment, or lack of options? When I was younger I could not wait to get away from renting and to establish my own stake in the ground, but since moving to the UK we have only rented. Moving house is of course a huge PITA but the flexibility is great. Ultimately we will buy because we cannot rent a house that suits us without a lot of compromises, but for now renting is a good option for the reasons you cite.
I do agree with your stance though, it is more than fair, hopefully, the seller see's sense.
Cheers
I’m guessing your paid for a homebuyers or full structural or similar? If so the Surveyor is going to have done a very intensive report and found things as that’s their job. They may (or may not) have been a bit over zealous in their findings. They have effectively done two things - firstly delivered their report and secondly covered their backs. With the world of ‘claims’ now everyone has to.
So assuming you can live with all they have found, first step is to try and negotiate a compromise. If that doesn’t work, then decide if you think it’s a fair price taking all the findings into account. If so then then you carry on. If you can’t then the third step is to walk away.
We can all tell you there’s millions of houses out there, the market is high, don’t overpay, tell the vendor to get lost etc etc but only you know how right that particular house is.
The seller doesn’t have to drop a penny, just like you don’t have to buy it. Hopefully some compromise can be reached. I’d be pushing the estate agents to negotiate myself as they have their commission at stake.
Good luck and let us know how it goes.
P.s. I’ve just remembered. In 2000 I agreed to buy a house for 190k. The valuation came back at 180k. After going back and forwards we went 50/50 at 185k. Communication from the agents was the key.
It's a bit more complicated, we already own, but have had three houses in a row fall through over the last nine months. One who'd recently extended without any planning permission, one who had permission for a significant extension but no building control and an issue with subsidence and finally, and I'm literally not joking, one that seemed perfect but was literally sat five metres from a known chalkwell (that's a bore hole going down forty to eighty feet and then radiating out in a clover leaf as much as one hundred feet!) that had subsequently been used as a cess pit before the house was connected to the mains or, as I put it when the estate agent asked me if I'd reconsidered for a third time, teetering on a pit of ****.
Frankly, to discover this house was sound but run down was a novelty. However the need to buy soon is serious enough to buy first then sell, even in this climate.
You put an offer in BEFORE sight of your survey?
And now you want the vendor to reduce his price?
Good luck with that.
If it's local to Brighton and you need a tried and trusted builder to have a look, let me know as we have one we have used on two of our properties and is a man of his word.
mike
Everything that needed to be said has been said, only you can decide your course of action.
I would, however, insist on asking the seller why he think you had a survey done. If it was a final offer, why a survey at all? Precisely to identify potential pitfalls and, in this case, misrepresentation of the goods.
My house was built in 2000, and when we had a freshen up some norms had evolved (halogen ceiling lights, among others. When we sold my parents' Parisian flat, built in 1975, the surveyor identified that a complete rewiring was necessary because the norms had changed.
Ergo, I hate to think what needs to be changed in terms of wiring, plumbing (lead pipes anywhere?), etc.
All this to say that the seller cannot claim the house was maintained to the highest standards. Make the point to the estate agent, and rub their nose in it because they are the ones who advertised it as such.
And then decide as you see fit
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
The surveyor felt that in both cases, the wiring and piping was at the end of its sensible service life and replacement would be the best option. He was very careful, it's confined to the further of the detached garages and is definitely not in the roof space.
That is the way it works in the housing market in England ...
OP - as has been said, it depends if you really want the house or are prepared to walk away over £7.5k. Your position sounds reasonable, and I have done the same myself and ended up walking away as the survey uncovered things we couldn’t have known about.
Question is what happens if they refuse to meet you half way. You can ask for a contribution - £2.5 - £5k or failing them agreeing to that, you either walk away or if you really want it, then you will be prepared to suck up the extra cost
I did say precisely that. I suspect that they are in a slightly more complex situation. The house has been in probate for a while and is being sold in settlement of a will. I get the feeling that unhatched chickens were being counted. I think I'm being more than reasonable and even gave them a copy of the survey and access to the chap that did it as a gesture of good faith. I hope that I will not regret it...Everything that needed to be said has been said, only you can decide your course of action.
I would, however, insist on asking the seller why he think you had a survey done. If it was a final offer, why a survey at all? Precisely to identify potential pitfalls and, in this case, misrepresentation of the goods.
My house was built in 2000, and when we had a freshen up some norms had evolved (halogen ceiling lights, among others. When we sold my parents' Parisian flat, built in 1975, the surveyor identified that a complete rewiring was necessary because the norms had changed.
Ergo, I hate to think what needs to be changed in terms of wiring, plumbing (lead pipes anywhere?), etc.
All this to say that the seller cannot claim the house was maintained to the highest standards. Make the point to the estate agent, and rub their nose in it because they are the ones who advertised it as such.
And then decide as you see fit
How else would he do it? I presume most people would want the house taken off the market before paying for a survey, and the only way that is going to happen is if an offer has been made / accepted. As the OP said, he believed his offer was subject to survey.
I've always been under the impression that that is how it is done and I've bought and sold a few over the years. In fact, my first was in Warleigh Road Brighton in the mid eighties and was dangerously close to a lottery win by the time I sold it. A survey usually takes a few weeks to organise and cost between 500 and a grand. You do that before you make an offer?
Thanks, but I'm not really that local to Brighton these days, especially at the speed the M23 goes these days!
I confess I didn't even go for a valuation. I think it would have been too depressing...
Yes, I think a contribution of 5K feels like a bottom line here. Mind you situations like this can focus the mind wonderfully.
That is what I have always done. I have always deducted the cost of in obvious repairs from the price or the vendor makes good. Why would you pay for a survey and find your offer not accepted ?
OP - half sounds reasonable or deduct what you couldn’t have seen.
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Are there any specific reasons why he is saying this? The wiring will be PVC & unless he took some switch faceplates off & saw any degradation there's no reason to re-wire (other than a nice profit for the electrician). The consumer unit might be a candidate for upgrade if it's still re-wireable fuses but that's a £750 job. Similarly the internal pipework won't be lead & there's no reason to think copper piping will be past it's useful life. If you're doing a refurb then yes you might rewire but it's not a reason to knock money off unless an electrician gives a good reason for condemning the wiring.
Ultimately it comes down to how badly you'll feel if you lose the place over £7.5k & have to start looking again.
All I can add is that if the wiring is 50+ years old, then whatever happens price-wise, it must be replaced.
Apparently all the fuse components have been upgraded to trip switches of good quality and so on, it the wiring in between he was concerned about. He doesn't specifically mention degradation and he was impressively thorough elsewhere and so I suspect that he was talking about replacement on principle. I agree with him. The pipes he was more specific but also clear that it was less safety critical and just better to sort it out in one go with modern rads and so on rather than put up with irritating issues for life.
- - - Updated - - -
I agree.,
How else do you do it? isn't it normal practice to make an offer, have the offer accepted, then shell out for a survey?
If I'd paid for a survey on every house I'd considered buying before making an offer, I'd be a skint idiot. Plus, while waiting for a survey to be done, someone else is actually going to make an offer and I'm out of the game.
Quite - in the last 4 times I have purchased properties the offer has been subject to survey.
End of.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
I would imagine it was an offer 'subject to survey'.
In a burgeoning market, what one person sees as being immediately necessary - another potential purchaser may be prepared to address over a few years. The first person might want/expect a reduction in asking price - the second person might take on the chin.
But - who is to say that the house isn't priced according to the requirement of some electrical and roof works?
As others say - how much do you want the house? Offer a few grand less (without insulting) and see if it gets accepted............. then move to plan B if not.
Well, not all were mentioned at the time as is traditional when things are factored in, while being well maintained was, with new trip switches, a recent boiler and so on as exhibit A. I'm not remotely asking for all of it, but some of it seems a fair cop.
I'm not sure I'd describe the market in the SE as currently burgeoning unless minus numbers count...
TBH Matt, trip switches and a boiler do not represent 'maintained regardless of cost' rather a sales pitch that is not really representative of the property. If they had paperwork to back this up then fair claim.
Older houses are like a wormhole - we are out of the other side of this so know full well what estimates - V - reality looks like in terms of renovation/update and repairs.
Best of luck, if it's property you really have fallen for then barter aggressively but be mindful that you may have to bend and suck up some bills.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Bizarre comment.
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
It's not a case of fallen for it, it's a case of accommodating my aged father who simply can't look after himself any more, and will go into a home over my dead body, while not buggering up a good life for my wife and kids. So we need a decent sized house with a decent sized annex. Finding that is more of a pain than you might imagine. This one is actually reasonably cheap for the size and leaves us with plenty to sort it. However...
This being the case, and the repairs probably not costing enough to make the house that overpriced and not all needing to be done straightaway, I'd buy it. Get a decent electrician to check and rewire if needed and do the rest as and when.
Started out with nothing. Still have most of it left.
You are probably right and we stand to lose more buying while May carries on unifying us all in disagreeing with her vision of uncertainty. However, at this point, I don’t think negotiating will upset the timetable unless heels get dug in. We”ll see.
The only comment I can add is ‘maintained to a high standard’ can mean ‘when it breaks we throw money at the problem’ as the previous owner was clueless about preventative diy. We bought a 15 year old house 3 years ago which was in very good condition, but over about 3 months with a basic set of tools I was able to fix lots of small issues at negligible cost. Things like dripping taps that just needed a washer, loose screws in door hinges, missing insulation on external pipe work, draining radiators and very basic electrical and plumbing that just need an hours attention every 20 years! - my guess is the previous owner of our property would call out a tradesman if he noticed anything stopped working and would pay over the odds for a high quality replacement when 5 minutes with a Philips screwdriver a year beforehand would have fixed it for free!
In this case it sounds like the plumbing and electrical systems are working fine as far as the vendor is concerned, if you want them brought up to 2019 standards it might cost a few quid. I think negotiating on the findings of a survey is all part and parcel and your meet in the middle view makes sense to me
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In your particular circumstances sounds like the house fits your particular requirements..... that might mean that it won’t be as marketable as the seller thinks. So maybe just try for a £5k reduction
I’ve seen lots of these surveys and the house rarely falls down and if it wasn’t for the fact that it was changing hands many of the issues might not need sorting out for a few years yet anyway
One last thing - you mention your dad is coming to live with you. If he is in anyway contributing to the cost of the house or significant repairs then watch out for an Inheritance Tax situation- a gift with reservation situation can sometimes arise
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'maintained regardless of cost'
First time I've heard that term in relation to a house. Are you sure the estate agent didn't used to be a second hand car salesman?
I would not offer the let the vendor fix things up, you'd only need another survey to check it's been done. Woodworm is a dream for these treatment people with their worthless guarantees. Buy a few cans of Cuprinol 5 Star and a large garden sprayer and do it yourself.
In this market the vendor would be mad not to reconsider your offer. You need to play absolutely firm with the agent. Although they act for the vendor, you may be their only hope for commission so they won't want to lose you and once they realise you are serious, they will get to work on their client.
In the meantime, have a look at their stock and ask to view another property on their books, that usually has them jumping.
But look at the situation the OP is in. He's already had two purchases fall through & he's looking for a very specific property (one with an annexe for his father). To lose this for the sake of £7.5k whan he's already admitted it's a good price & he has the funds to do any work required could turn out to be a poor decision. Yes the house might sit on the market for six months if the economy doesn't pick up but that's not a given.
Right, the situation has resolved itself in a slightly unexpectec manner. My father, who is currently staying with my sister, phoned up and said he’s been up half the night worrying about it and asked me to let it go. As he’s in his mid nineties and still hasn’t really got over my mother’s death, I’ve followed his wishes.
I spoke to the sellers and I’ve clearly made their day. I had negotiated quite hard and, while it leaves me a Rolex or so out of pocket, I feel oddly content with it. It’s far from a dream house, but it’s perfect for our current needs and has sheep grazing the other side of the kitchen window. Some houses you can’t quite decide if you’ve done the right thing all the way to completion, this one isn’t that, I’m sure I want it and the quicker the better, so this feels Ok.
Thanks to to everyone for some sterling and sensible advice that really helped me think it through. I spend too much time in the bear pit and ought to get out more...
Must say - I’m not following that? Are you buying it or letting it go?
I see your point. We are accepting the agreed price prior to the survey.
Sensible Matt.
In the wider aspect of your family and your Dad's well being £15k is nothing if the house suits your needs.
Best wishes for your move.
Cheers,
Neil.
Thanks. It's perfectly suited. It's a sprawling custom built bungalow that was obviously once someone's dream house and has lovely tall ceilings and rather a lot of cavernous roof spaces that give us further future options.Sensible Matt.
In the wider aspect of your family and your Dad's well being £15k is nothing if the house suits your needs.
Best wishes for your move.
Nice to hear from you, I hope all is well down your way?
I think the OP’s probably doing the right thing. None of us know whether the price is fair or not, much of that depends how hard the OP had haggled when getting his offer accepted, but if the house ticks enough boxes it’s the right thing to do. Valuing a house is an inexact science, you can’t pin a valuation down to within a few £K in most cases. Perhaps the seller thinks he’d moved far enough on the price, it does happen.
I’m no expert, but I do know that surveyers cover their backs and sometimes their reports can be open to interpretation. Estate Agents are renowned for embellishing the truth, it goes with the territory, and I take everything they say with a pinch of salt.
Buying and selling houses is always stressful to a greater or lesser extent, and it gets no better. I’m looking to move if the right house comes up for sale, I’d prefer to do it before I get much older because it’s never easy!
I wouldn't worry too much about the pipes and electrics our house is from the 60s I was told by 3 sparks from work that as long as it isn't the old disintegrating cable it should be alright as ours has been fitted with a new consumer unit,and we've been told by a couple of plumbers that the copper piping in old houses is about twice the thickness of the modern stuff
Yes, fine thanks Matt.
Cheers,
Neil.
Wait until the sheep break into your garden and riot. They won't seem so perfect then
In the circumstances, you've done the right thing. Fingers crossed for you and the family that it all goes smoothly
I would second that copper pipe from 50 years ago is more substantial than what one buys today. I renovated a house built in the sixties a few years ago and the plumbing was fine. Only complication was matching imperial to metric sizes when fitting new bathrooms.
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True. One issue may be that in some parts of the country (I suspect Sussex being one such as the county is mostly a lump of chalk) limescale buildup may be a concern. I guess there must be a combination of treatments for buildup in pipes and filter for the incom8ng supply which would address this and possibly avoid the need for replumbing in the near future.
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