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n2
....due to cobwebs!
Seriously, the Estate Agents (who were completely useless during our 16m tenancy) have now threatened to withold an undisclosed sum of our (large) deposit due to ‘cobwebs’ in the rooms, dirty windows (no photographic evidence provided) and black marks on the carpets (caused by their contractors after we moved out!).
There were a couple of felt tip-type marks that were probably the kids’ fault, but apart from that we looked after the place and left it in good order.
The place was a complete dump when we moved in, requiring a couple of days of intense cleaning. I feel like they are simply taking the p*ss and trying to steal our deposit.
Can anyone advise as to what constitutes ‘reasonable wear and tear’? And what is the best course of action should they withhold a sum? From what I’ve read online the Deposit Protection Service are useless, and the Agents have irritated me so much I’d be happy to take legal action. Would a small claims type action be the most appropriate?
Rant over, and thanks in advance!
You must be a member of a 'tenancy deposit scheme' contract them for a chat.
n2
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
Originally Posted by number2
n2
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
Shysters.
“Deposit Protection Service” apparently. And from online reviews they are useless. But good shout, I’ll give them a call on Monday. We moved out 12 days before handing the keys back (due to notice period etc)...the sneaky spiders were busy during our time away!
Why do you think that the DPS are useless? I’ve just been through the process (as a landlord) and although it took some time (several months), the process was relatively transparent and fair.
Who did your inventory, and most importantly, the check out?
Just online reviews (I know, I know!). It was a lady at the Estate Agents who did the check out, but not in our presence.
I wish Josh B was still here to give rental property skirting board advice.
If you dispute the outcome of the check out report, then there should be a process to adjust it if necessary. It should all be documented in your Tenancy Agreement. But, unfortunately, if the inventory clerk recorded something in the property and you weren’t present, then you might struggle to dispute it (unless you have photos or records to the contrary).
Any reasonable landlord/agent should also allow you the chance to rectify any issues before charging you. If you feel that any subsequent charges are unreasonable, then let the DPS decide. I suspect that one of the clauses in your TA is that you have already signed up to the DPS arbitration service.
And no, cobwebs do not constitute ‘reasonable wear and tear’. Just poor cleaning.
my own experiences,of 20 years, generally supports your view.
reasonable wear and tears very debatable, as landlord it's been easier/less time consuming to accept most things, physical structural damage aside.
They have allowed me the chance to ‘rectify’ it, but my fear is I’ll re-clean on one day, only for them to inspect on another day to find the naughty spiders have returned. (The place was well cleaned when we moved out). I offered to do the extra cleaning today in the presence of an estate agent....that wasn’t possible...
To be honest, if they weren’t so useless during our tenancy, and the place wasn’t such a dump when we moved in, I’d be feeling less aggrieved about all this! It’s so nice to be a home owner again (apart from be massive mortgage obvs).
My 18 odd years as a landlord (amongst other things) is that there are shit landlords just as there are shit tenants, currently it seems that the op is dealing with the agent as opposed to the landlord.
n2
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
Was there a check in to compare the check out to? If no check in, then they cannot prove you left it in a worse condition.
First of all I’d want to know how much they are thinking of holding back.
We’re there pictures taken before you moved in? If there wasn’t how can they prove you did it and it wasn’t existing? I normally have around 100 taken and get the tenants to sign and I sign and we keep a copy each. It’s quite clear when they leave if there’s been damage.
The DPS works both ways and personally I’ve never had an issue with them so contact them for advice.
It’s not clear how much they are threatening to hold back; communication isn’t their strong point. And yes I’m dealing with the (useless) Estate Agents as the landlord is in Australia.
I’ve compared the check in / out reports and highlighted where there are discrepancies or no evidence (e.g. “dirty windows”). They haven’t responded to my comments.
During the tenancy they were so useless re: repairs that I contacted the landlord and let his UK based friends come and inspect the property. For instance there was a persistent leak from a velux window; if we hadn’t had a bucket and towels underneath it would have wrecked the laminate floor!
When did the contractors enter the property? Was it after you had handed the keys back or in the 12 day period after you moved out before handing the keys back? If its the latter did they notify you of their entry?
Id be tempted to say to the estate agents that youll pay for a professional end of tenency clean (should cost less than £100) and see what they say. I've had similar situation in the past and that sorted it.
It was during the 12 day period. We weren’t informed.
Im just sensitive about this as we left the place in a far better state than we found it!
Hate to say it but you might be better to chalk this one up to experience, annoying/useless as you say the agent was during the tenancy, without you having had good communications with the owner and/or extensive documentation, I don't think it matters at this point.
Best outcome I imagine is you come to an agreement re the cost of a professional clean and make right the pen marks you mentioned, shouldn't be more than a couple of hundred max at a guess.
Then that in itself is illegal. They still have to notify you. Inform them of that, and threaten to report them to [cant remember name of organisation]. This should see them refund your deposit fairly swiftly. I had the exact same issue when I was renting a few years ago. Even though you have moved out you hadnt handed the key back so you are still the tenants and they therefore need to give you 24hrs notice.
Thanks Genta. That’s just the sort of advice my anger needed!
And thanks all. I’ll celebrate at the Mcr GTG once I have the deposit back!
My experience from the landlord perspective was equally frustrating in my dealings with a useless letting agent, but rightly or wrongly I was informed that even though the tenants left the carpets beyond cleaning, it was classed as wear and tear and the most I could demand was fee for a professional clean. Get a rough estimate of what it would cost and that should be the maximum they can withold. They probably will want to use their own cleaners as I presume there is a premium included on top for themselves.
I found them really good TBH - I had an issue with the landlord and a dispute over final utility bill payments - once I had proved they were correctly settled they released my deposit back to me. They were negligent not asking you to be present for the check out.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Not necessarily.
It’s in the tenants’ interest to be present during the check out (as we can see from this thread) but there is no requirement for them to be present.
I said negligent, not required - only from the stance that now they are claiming issues and Bro Kirk is contesting this.
That was all.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
As a landlord I've found the DPS very much in favour of the tenant.
Had an expensive property significantly damaged by tenants. Their dog did a lot of scratching damage to doors and surfaces, in addition to the other issues. They also emptied the oil tank. DPS deemed it all reasonable wear and tear over an eighteen month stay! Because the watchman on the oil tank stopped working during the tenancy and they failed to report it on vacating the property, the readings were incorrect and passed by the agent.
I now personally take pictures of everything at the start and the end of a tenancy.
I would advise you speak to the DPS. Take it to appeal. You'll probably get most if not all of your deposit back. Some agents view the deposit as fair pickings for compensation of lost rent at the end of a tenancy to cover the rental void.
They can't be present if they are not notified...
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
I’ve obviously missed the bit where the OP said that he wasn’t notified of the check out appointment.
That's how I read it. Could be wrong.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
That was the contractors entering the property.
Apologies. You're correct
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Sorry - to clarify I knew when the check-out was happening, but I couldn’t make it as I was at work (a Monday). So I dropped the keys off the preceding Saturday.
Last edited by Kirk280; 19th January 2019 at 19:46.
If the carpets have been in over 5 years the DPS will write off any damage as wear and tear, I had a Tennant spill hair dye on a previously perfect carpet and didn’t get anything back because of its age.
The carpets were knackered when we moved in. That’s useful info Lammymate. Ta all!
My parents let a number of properties. One of their flats just became vacant. The tenant managed to burn a 2 year old carpet which will cost £190 to replace. The deposit scheme guidelines say for this type of damage you can withhold £50 from the deposit. My father also said that the landlord and tenant had to agree in the amount being withheld.
In this case, the landlord couldn’t charge the full £190 anyway, because this doesn’t account for ‘reasonable wear and tear’ ie it still wouldn’t be a brand new carpet after 2 years use. The crux to any of these claims is invariably ‘betterment’ - ie any replacements or repairs can’t make the property better than it was at the beginning of the tenancy.
And yep, any amounts have to be agreed between the tenant and landlord. If that is amount is disputed by either party, the matter goes to DPS arbitration.
Quick update on this: I formally complained to the estate agent about contractors entering without our knowledge. After a friendly but frank conversation with their regional manager we agreed that a good compromise would be for them to refund all the deposit, and I would then consider the complaint resolved and it not require further escalation. Job done.
Thanks for everyone’s advice!
Good result.
Fantastic news and great advice guys!
A great result- very pleased for you :)
Glad you got it sorted out, Kirk.
Persistence pays off, I guess the Agents hoped you’d roll over and soak it up.
Congrats! Annoying it took this long to resolve but at least you got your full deposit back.
More proof, as if you needed any, that estate agents are complete cockroaches.
Excellent outcome. Bad landlords and agents give us all a bad reputation.
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