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Calling Haywood_Milton (don’t think he’s Glasgow but may have some contacts)? Or post to a Rolex Service Centre?
A few years back I started a thread about a submariner my dad has owned for as long as I remember. Things got a bit heated regarding the authenticity and there was a definite conclusion that many of the parts were (cheap/moody/bad) replacements.
Following a worrying trend of my dad's mates unexpectedly passing away, my dad has decided he wants to sell this watch and help out the grandkids. Unfortunately he's asked me to help and I don't know where to begin due to the nature of the watch. I have already prewarned him that the watch could be completely worthless.
From the previous forum thread the advice seemed to be to get the back off to check the movement was genuine and hope this also revealed a date inside the case back. I don't have the tools to do this and being a bit ham fisted I don't trust myself to open a 40+ year old watch that's possibly never been opened. Can anyone advise on someone who can do this for me in Glasgow please?
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Calling Haywood_Milton (don’t think he’s Glasgow but may have some contacts)? Or post to a Rolex Service Centre?
Thanks. I think HM is in the Merseyside area. Unfortunately I'm never down that way.
I wasn't really wanting to take it to a Rolex service centre as I'm not sure how understanding/helpful they would be (I think the PCG case and movement are original and at the very least the bezel and dial have been replaced with cheap parts). I really just want a professional assessment so I can set my father's expectations on price.
From searching here, Martin's in Glasgow may be my best bet. The guy in Tron Pawn also knows his stuff but I've found him a bit abrasive in the past. I've heard there is a watchmaker upstairs in Argyll arcade but I never realised there was an upstairs.
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Posting some good quality pictures of the watch on here is a good place to start, the l resident experts should at least he able to give constructive feedback on the external appearance and parts.
Agreed; with decent pictures we can probably cover most things.Originally Posted by ~dadam02~
H
I will see if I can find my camera and get some uploaded. The pics I posted years ago weren't great quality and the discussion got a bit heated between some members (at least one of them is now banned) so I'm trying to avoid that happening again.
A visit to Tom Coll, upstairs in the Argyll Arcade could help you out. up the stairs immediately behind the Omega Boutique.
Thank you Alanm. Took it in and was at least confirmed it's not fake. The serial starts 977 and is apparently 1963. I didn't get a definitive list of the parts replaced but I do know my ham fisted father glued a cheap crap bezel insert on and lost the original.
My attempt at hi Res images below if any experts can offer enlighten me. Many thanks.
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Wowsers, what a shame about the dial.
I assume they opened it for you and took a pic of the movement if they authenticated it? That’d be my first concern given the look of it, if you’re selling it as it is people will want to see the movement as it’ll be assumed fake by the look of it.
Whatever the details, it is worth from £5K to £10K depending on what model exactly it is and how much it would need to bring it to par. Take your time with it... and when you are ready put it up for auction (with a reserve) rather than try to sell it privately at a fixed price.
He opened it but never took photos. His advice was to send it to Rolex to be sorted.
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Just take a day out to visit Haywood or Mike Wood in the Liverpool area, yes it’s a bit of a drive but it’s also a watch of value that needs a very expert opinion, combine it with a nice lunch and enjoy the day for what it is, I’m sure you’ll come away with a lot more knowledge about the Sub..
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+1...or jump on a train and have an even better day out (I dislike driving thesedays). Either Southport or Liverpool are OK for a few hrs.
It's well worth getting to the bottom of this, getting a correct appraisal and valuation as a basis to move forward.
Or contact Duncan of Genesis Watchmakers, he will advise, but you would almost certainly need to send it to him, but he only accepts Royal Mail special delivery, so not sure about insurance value for a parcel, I know you can insure unto 2.5k, but not sure above that value.
This sounds like a plan. I'll probably wait until my dad is better (currently suffering from complications after a hip replacement) then maybe travel down together and make a day/overnight of it.
Probably a good idea I contact Haywood or Mike Wood before travelling to ensure they don't think I'm wasting my time on a watch that's too far gone.
Thanks.
Resurfacing this thread as I popped in to Martin's and got some shots of the movement and inside the case back. In my previous thread it was mentioned there would be a date inside the case back.
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Third quarter of 1963 I think III63.
Cheers..
Jase
A question for any knowledgeable folk still reading.
My dad wants to sell this but wants to send it off for a service first as currently it isn't running right. We have 2 options.
Martin's seemed quite keen on servicing/repairing it but I'd need to discuss what they planned to do.
The other option is send it to Rolex. How much do you think they would replace and would it end up looking like a new watch?
Cost wise he's not bothered.
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Full Rolex service maybe £500 ball park + discretionary parts.
New dial will be available only through Rolex themselves, unless you can somehow find a loose one on the secondary market.
Rolex UK service with new dial and other parts (they'll likely want to replace that crown and some movement parts) I might expect to be between £1,000 - £1,500 but then it would indeed look more like a new watch, certainly with a modern dial having white metal surrounds to the indices.
If Rolex say you need a new mid-case for any reason, come back here for further advice.
Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 5th March 2019 at 16:44.
It’s one of those watches that can’t really be brought back to where a collector would want to pay top money for it. I had the same issue with a one owner, 1964 Speedmaster that I sold for a friend a couple of years ago.
I’d therefore send it back to Rolex and let them sort it. They’d at least replace all the moody parts with genuine and you’ll end up with a genuine (but not original) 1963 submariner.
Priced at the lower end of what 5513s (I assume it’s a 5513 but I’m not an expert) sell for, I’d imagine it would still sell quite quickly. I’d certainly be interested in it as a birth year watch.
Surely the best way forward is to contact a Rolex accredited independent such as Bill Rice or Duncan Potter (Genesis)?. These guys are more flexible than Rolex Service centre, you can discuss the watch with the guy who's doing the work, and they're likely to be cheaper too. Accredited repairers have access to genuine Rolex parts, that's a big advantage for a watch like this one.
Hmmm. Not sure I'm keen on Rolex sticking very visible parts in that aren't anything like what the watch would originally have had.
But on the other hand. The dial that's in there is rubbish and I'd imagine originals are thin on the ground.
Thanks for the tip on the specialist. I may try giving them a call.
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I'm in Hamilton, near Glasgow, I collect vintage Rolex, Omega and military watches.
As he wants to sell it, and it is not 100% original and would be almost impossible for you get it back to what it would have looked like, I'd not waste any cash on it, it will make NO DIFFERENCE to the price out achieves.
I would sell it via McTears auction house in Glasgow.
Ensure it is going to be listed in one of their specialist watches auctions.
Ensure it is described properly, eg, "1963 Pointed crown guard Rolex 5513 with ******* bracelet etc etc"
Good luck with it.
If he’s selling it why not just sell it as it stands? You’ll never get back the £1500 as I’d imagine a new (applied marker) dial in this watch would nearly be as detrimental to value as the refinished dial anyway.
Or really push Rolex on a correct dial. My feeling is they do have them after reading threads on TRF. One chap even got a new red sub service dial after RSC in the US said no chance he went direct and got one after some digging and contact with them.
At Mctears (which is not unusual) the buyer's commission is 24% + VAT, i.e. 28.8% on top of the hammer price.
The separate seller's fee is 15% plus VAT, i.e. 18% of the hammer price.
There is a £10 lot fee for entry / cataloguing / photography in specialist sales.
Insurance is 1.5% + VAT, i.e. 1.8% of its "best valuation of the item."
So, if an item sells for £4,000 hammer price, the buyer will in fact have to pay £5,152 and the seller will receive £3,198.
If my mathematics and reading of McTears' Ts & Cs are correct ( https://www.mctears.co.uk/terms-of-business ) then such a seller will receive just 62% of what the buyer of his item actually pays. He may also have to wait a couple of months for the cataloguing / sale calendar / payment processing to realise his money.
There are many occasions when selling a watch directly to someone, whether private or trade, is a better bet.
The last 20 years have seen the percentage taken in buyers' and sellers' fees by the auction houses generally increase very significantly even in areas like watches where sale values have grown enormously. While competition keeps estate agents' % fees relatively stable and it is rising markets which have made them more money, auction houses in growth areas like watches appear to be having their cake, eating it and sleeping with the baker's wife.
Haywood
Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 6th March 2019 at 11:19.
IMO, the best bet is to replace the dial and hands with something period correct. There is a 5513 dial and hands set on eBay for $3500. Something like that ( obviously with some reassurance of the authenticity) would be the best bet- if you want to keep it or sell it. I would imagine you would more than recover the price of the dial as it would fetch a better price.
You could try Catawiki? I've used them on a few watches and been fairly happy. They hold funds in Escrow and are pretty quick with settlement.
12.5% fee + VAT on the commission amount.
https://catawiki.zendesk.com/hc/en-us
Personally, I think it's one of those watches where it's probably best to let the new owner sort it as they may have a different opinion on how they would like to restore it.
Steve
Why is nothing ever simple?
Sounds like either way we go with this we could turn certain groups of potential buyers off so potentially the best bet is to look to sell at a fair price and let the buyer decide if they want to restore or renew.
Auction sounded like a good idea but all that commission is a bit off putting. I'm not sure my dad would go that route either as he had a bad experience selling his Vincent via auction. The attractive part of auction is letting the buyer decide the price as I have no clue how to price such a watch in its questionable condition.
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I think you would want Rolex to service and authenticate the watch before you sell it, that way if there is any issue with it they will tell you strait away.
This is indisputably true, auction houses have it all ways at the moment and are bending everyone over and making hay, to mix metaphors. At McTears there is even an additional 4.95% if you bid through The Saleroom .com. I can't think of a worse place to sell a watch to be honest, the bidders will bid less if they calculate the close to 30% of fees on top.
I, personally, think the watch should be left as it is, be patient and find the right private buyer that you are happy to sell your dad's watch to and agree a deal between yourselves that you are both happy with.
Last edited by size11s; 8th March 2019 at 18:34.
Is it not worth trying to sell it as it is on the forum?
Haywood’s calculations are enlightening and somewhat surprising to say the least!
Ideally.
Following views given in some of the posts I figured the way to price it would be to find the average price of 5513s of this age for sale then deduct the cost of a period dial and bezel at the very least.
However, this is easier said than done. I don't want to get the pricing wrong and have one of THOSE sales threads.
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I'm not sure I do if they are likely to slap a load of new parts in it or do anything to the case destroying what little originality is left. I didn't think authenticity was in question anymore. At least not for the case and movement.
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It will be hard to sell it for a decent price IMO. Not many I imagine would be interested just in the case and movement unless they get it for cheap. I feel for the OP as something that should have been very desirable is let down by the dial.
A period appropriate dial ( even though it will cost a pretty penny ) would make it a very interesting proposition. I hear what people who say let the new owner decide are saying but what do you expect the new owner to do? They are hardly going to polish it and get a brand new dial. Then it would be just another Submariner. Anyway, OP can try selling it as it is and see what the response is and take it from there. Whatever you decide OP, all the best.
I imagine $5000-6000 would be a good price for it in current condition. Get a correct dial-handset for $3000 and suddenly it will be worth $10,000. These are just rough figures and my estimates. I am more than happy to be corrected by the experts.
Last edited by RAJEN; 9th March 2019 at 10:04.
It’s got replacement dial, hands and bezel insert, there’s not much more originality that it can lose apart from the case.
There’s a similar one on SC at the moment in a condition yours would probably be once serviced. It’s just over £5k and not shifting so I’d say yours would probably fetch around £3.5k as it is.
It is what it is and even with its lack of originality, it’s still a nice watch. As the saying goes “you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear!” But there’s still a decent market for sow’s ears!
I mean this with without any disrespect, as I mentioned earlier, that’s a watch I would be interested in as a birth year watch bearing in mind that a totally original one would be way beyond my budget and, for me, unwearable anyway.
As an aside, I sold this Speedmaster for s friend a couple of years ago. Bought new for him by his wife, it had only ever been serviced by Omega.
Replacement parts included the dial, hands, bezel and even the movement.
No offence taken by any comments. I appreciate all the opinions and advice.
Thanks for pointing me in the direction of the one on sales corner, it's a good guide on price and views on a watch that has service parts (although the dial on my dad's is too crap to be a service dial). However, I'm struck with that same issue again, where it's not really like for like. It's 10 years younger and not a PCG case which seems to be one of those Rolex anomalies like a different font, extra line of text, bigger lume plots etc that can affect price.
I plan on calling some of the specialist mentioned above and have an appointment with a local guy who specialises in vintage watches.
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I think a potential buyer would just have to keep the watch as is and appreciated it for what it is.Is £3 1/2 Grand reasonable bearing in mind an auctioneer will do the OP up the butt sideways?
Last edited by lew07; 10th March 2019 at 15:05.
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