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Thread: Formula 1 2019

  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by g40steve View Post
    'deliberately steered right knowing Hamilton was there', SV was correcting a 2m wide car at over 100mph on a street circuit not some vast tarmac carpark?
    The Stewards unanimously decided, after looking at all data/footage available to them, that Vettel intentionally acted in a dangerous fashion after he had recovered control of his car.

  2. #602
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeremyO View Post
    If that report from Autosport is correct then it puts the decision regarding the penalty beyond all doubt, tantamount to Vettels move on Hamilton at Baku 2017.
    From that article:

    The stewards examined slow motion footage of Vettel's actions from the moment that he had regained control and started steering his car - and felt the evidence showed that he could have made different choices that would have been within the rules.

    The footage clearly captures Vettel correcting an oversteer moment as he rejoins the track - which is shown by a sharp steering wheel movement to the right.

    Shortly after that, Vettel has sorted the oversteer and begins steering to the left to follow the direction of the circuit - suggesting he is now under control.

    But a split moment later, rather than keeping to the left, Vettel is shown to release the steering wheel - which allows his car to drift to the right, cutting off the route that Hamilton would have taken had he had clear space.


    If Vettel had "sorted the oversteer" and if his car was "under control" then I have to agree with the stewards' decision. However, is a suggestion that he was under control enough? The telemetry from the car (accelerometers etc) should be able to supply evidence to back up that suggestion...or otherwise. Was there enough time to look at the data and did the stewards do so? Are they expert enough to be able to interpret such date by themselves or do they rely on the teams to explain it to them when giving evidence?

    The stewards wrote that Vettel was "Involved in an incident as defined by Article 38.1 of the FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations" (pdf link). That article says "After review it shall be at the discretion of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an investigation." I'm in no doubt that there was an incident.


    Then Article 38.2 a) continues:

    It shall be at the discretion of the stewards to decide if any driver involved in an Incident should be penalised.

    Unless it is clear to the stewards that a driver was wholly or predominantly to blame for an Incident no penalty will be imposed.

    I have to hope that the stewards have enough evidence to show the appeal that Vettel was clearly at fault.


    Then there is the last paragraph of Article 27.3 that says:

    Should a car leave the track the driver may re‐join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the race director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he gained by leaving the track.

    Why did the stewards reject this option?


    So many questions...

  3. #603
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pointy View Post
    Go & read the stewards explaination issued today. Vettel regained control & then deliberately steered right knowing Hamilton was there.

    I hope he gets banned for a few races for bringing the sport into disrepute with his behaviour after the race. It demonstrated what a classless entitled child he really is.
    Where can I find that, please? All I have seen is The Stewards Decision (Doc 42) issued yesterday. Thanks, in anticipation...

  4. #604
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    I really think that that was an unfair penalty. The rulings by the judges are sometimes ridiculous. They are taking the 'racing' out of racing. There was nothing 'unsafe' about it!

  5. #605
    Quote Originally Posted by Boss13 View Post
    I really think that that was an unfair penalty. The rulings by the judges are sometimes ridiculous. They are taking the 'racing' out of racing. There was nothing 'unsafe' about it!
    but "racing" is on the track, if the grass had been a brick wail we wouldn't be having a discussion.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    Where can I find that, please? All I have seen is The Stewards Decision (Doc 42) issued yesterday. Thanks, in anticipation...
    Adrian posted it earlier - https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...LQuXxILEvYCXfg




  7. #607
    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    but "racing" is on the track, if the grass had been a brick wail we wouldn't be having a discussion.
    Indeed.

    The Stewards are of the opinion that Vettel could have chosen to avoid forcing Hamilton off the circuit, the fact he chose to make a manoeuvre that gave Hamilton no choice other than to do so was their reasoning for issuing the penalty.

  8. #608
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    Where can I find that, please? All I have seen is The Stewards Decision (Doc 42) issued yesterday. Thanks, in anticipation...
    Thanks. In my book "it is understood that the stewards' decision was based on" does not count as "the stewards explaination" (sic) and leaves many thing to ponder on, as I posted above (#602).

  9. #609
    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    Thanks. In my book "it is understood that the stewards' decision was based on" does not count as "the stewards explaination" (sic) and leaves many thing to ponder on, as I posted above (#602).
    Fair enough. The article isn't a statement of explanation from the Stewards themselves, it's a piece written informing the reader of the Steward's decision making process.

    For me it's sounding more like Vettel was penalised not for re-joining the circuit in an unsafe manner, more it was a case of him intentionally performing a manoeuvre that was subsequently declared unsafe. He did actually recover in a safe manner (as in he in no way hindered LH during the recovery process), it was only after that recovery did he commit the crime.

  10. #610
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    Quote Originally Posted by CardShark View Post
    Fair enough. The article isn't a statement of explanation from the Stewards themselves, it's a piece written informing the reader of the Steward's decision making process.

    For me it's sounding more like Vettel was penalised not for re-joining the circuit in an unsafe manner, more it was a case of him intentionally performing a manoeuvre that was subsequently declared unsafe. He did actually recover in a safe manner (as in he in no way hindered LH during the recovery process), it was only after that recovery did he commit the crime.
    And then both drivers were on the team radio with messages that were 'for the stewards' , according to the TV pundits.

    When I occasionally watch football I am dismayed by players, diving, rolling around on the ground etc...all in an attempt to influence the match officials. I'm sad to see F1 going the same way, but then the drivers are professional sportsmen too.

  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraniteQuarry View Post
    Could've been worse; he could've invaded Poland.

    Who? Vettel or LH.

    It does seem that some people think that it's all LH/Mercedes fault for creating the pressure on Vettel, causing Vettel to leave the track, for having to break to avoid running into Vettel or the wall and for then asking for the incident to be investigated to the Stewards - what utter bastards?

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  12. #612
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    for then asking for the incident to be investigated to the Stewards - what utter bastards?
    It is indeed like football players asking for a yellow card to be issued.
    Whether Hamilton, Vettel, Verstappen or whomever, imo it is poor sportmanship to address the stewards or act for them on the team radio.
    Stewards should take exception as it is basically an insult to their eyesight and intelligence.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  13. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    And then both drivers were on the team radio with messages that were 'for the stewards' , according to the TV pundits.

    When I occasionally watch football I am dismayed by players, diving, rolling around on the ground etc...all in an attempt to influence the match officials. I'm sad to see F1 going the same way, but then the drivers are professional sportsmen too.
    Going that way? It's been that way for a long, long time. In all sports.

    Sent from my GM1903 using Tapatalk

  14. #614
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    Where can I find that, please? All I have seen is The Stewards Decision (Doc 42) issued yesterday. Thanks, in anticipation...

    Surprised you need it given that only last year you posted.

    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    27.3..."Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and..."


    Edit Those of you with replay should be able to see if he left the track:
    "Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not."


    Update "Driver and team representative are required to report to the Stewards" at 17h30 local...that's 16h30 BST.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  15. #615
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Surprised you need it given that only last year you posted.
    Not surprised that you're surprised.

  16. #616
    Jolyon Palmer makes his point well - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/form...c87DzDO-m2E9rQ

    In other news Renault had a great weekend by their usual standards, apparently Hulkenberg was asked to hang back from his team mate and not engage in any kind of battle and put points at risk. McLaren went from hero to pretty much zero, Magnussen is still probably unable to sit down after the kicking he got from his boss and George Russel beat his teammate again. The 2019 version of Bottas failed to turn up at the circuit on Sunday, he didn't look that racy at all.
    Last edited by CardShark; 10th June 2019 at 23:15.

  17. #617
    Hypocrite?

    https://youtu.be/xCvyhkyinQs

    Vettel is a master at selective whingeing.
    Last edited by watchcollector1; 11th June 2019 at 12:18.

  18. #618
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    There was an excellent Vlog by Rosberg following the race.

    In summary, whilst he had considerable sympathy for Vettel, he believed that Vettel simply folded under the pressure (again). Rosberg also believed that Vettel knew exactly what he was doing in allowing his car to run wide and prevent LH the overtake oportunity. He admitted that's exactly what he would have done.

    Watching the video from LH car, LH had to break hard in order not to hit either the wall or SV car and was pretty much 100% off track at the time. Proper squeaky bum time hence why LH said it was a "dangerous" re-entry.

    Rosberg also made the point that driving an F1 car at close to 200 mph, inches away from concrete walls was very stressful But nowhere near as stressful as doing the same with Lewis Hamilton in all over your gearbox at the same time. The leader knows that if LH makes a mistake, he loses 0.5 seconds and will try again, however if the leader makes a mistake, then there is a very good chance they will lose the race.

    He should know, he had to deal with for 4 years.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  19. #619
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    It is indeed like football players asking for a yellow card to be issued.
    Whether Hamilton, Vettel, Verstappen or whomever, imo it is poor sportmanship to address the stewards or act for them on the team radio.
    Stewards should take exception as it is basically an insult to their eyesight and intelligence.

    Show me a single sport where this isn't the case and I will happily agree with you.

    Perhaps Vettel should have referred himself to the Stewards and asked whether he should give up the position, rather than relying on others to do it for him?

    Not as strange as you think. Many golfers actually do refer themselves to the Stewards that if they think they have infringed to rules. Why? Because if they sign their card with an incorrect score it means disqualification from the event, not just a one or two shot penalty.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  20. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Show me a single sport where this isn't the case and I will happily agree with you.
    Since when is ´everybody does it´ an argument?
    You try this when caught speeding per example.

    At the end of it, it is unsportsman like behaviour which imo should be discouraged. Why not start with F1? Clamp down on it ónce and teams will do the rest. Can you give me a proper reason as to why not?


    Ásking the stweards whether or not to give up the position is something entirely different but imo should not be a task/worry for the driver. He has more acute things to concentrate on.
    The team should relay; ´you race, we´ll address the stewards´.
    Last edited by Huertecilla; 12th June 2019 at 09:48.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  21. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    Since when is ´everybody does it´ an argument?
    You try this when caught speeding per example.

    At the end of it, it is unsportsman like behaviour which imo should be discouraged. Why not start with F1? Clamp down on it ónce and teams will do the rest. Can you give me a proper reason as to why not?


    Ásking the stweards whether or not to give up the position is something entirely different but imo should not be a task/worry for the driver. He has more acute things to concentrate on.
    The team should relay; ´you race, we´ll address the stewards´.
    Verstappen would be first in the queue to do this.............................................. ................

  22. #622
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    As you know I don´t care whó does ´it´.
    I only have a Dutch passport becaue my mother gave birth to me in the Netherlands.
    If anything I find it nauseating that any form of motorised racing has been politcally incorrect in the Netherlands for décades and that all is possible nów because of a Dutch bloke being successful in F1.

    When Michael vd Mark won the Jerez Superbike that was cool for a different personal reason; I used to race with his dad. This win passed totally unnoticed by the general public in the Netherlands btw.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  23. #623
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    Since when is ´everybody does it´ an argument?
    You try this when caught speeding per example.

    At the end of it, it is unsportsman like behaviour which imo should be discouraged. Why not start with F1? Clamp down on it ónce and teams will do the rest. Can you give me a proper reason as to why not?


    Ásking the stweards whether or not to give up the position is something entirely different but imo should not be a task/worry for the driver. He has more acute things to concentrate on.
    The team should relay; ´you race, we´ll address the stewards´.
    The "everyone does it" is a perfectly valid arguement because of precedence set and the fact that no law/rule was broken. Hence it will continue until the authorities stop it with Laws/Rules/Penalitied. But now show me a sport where it is not common place?

    You also seem to fail to understand why the TV company broadcast the radio messages. It's not just for the information for the viewers - it provides drama, entertainment, etc all of which adds to the experience. Didn't the media/fans get all excited when Max tried to beat up Leclerc last season? And his penality was a small fine and community service. If the FIA really wanted to stop this sort of behaviour they would have banned him for a season. Yet they didn't. Why do you think that was?

    As for your final point.

    So what you are saying that drivers have time to bitch and moan about other drivers, the state of his tires, the temperature of his brakes, a furry aninmal is on the track, or in Vettel case, to have a hissy fit about being cheated out of a race, etc, etc, but its to difficult for the driver to ask whether he should give up a position because he was concerned he might have broken the rules.

    Yeh, right!

    But I do agree that it would be great if everyone were more honest, behaved better and treated others with a bit more understanding, humanity, dignity whilst being less hypocritical and rude. Perhaps a good place to start would be on this tread so we can set an example to others.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  24. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    The "everyone does it" is a perfectly valid arguement because

    ...


    But I do agree that it would be great if everyone were more honest, behaved better and treated others with a bit more understanding, humanity, dignity whilst being less hypocritical and rude. Perhaps a good place to start would be on this tread so we can set an example to others.
    I agree.
    F1 is formostly an amusement show against the backdrop of marketing áwesome technology.
    Rácing has long since gone off the top ten priority list.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  25. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    I agree.
    F1 is formostly an amusement show against the backdrop of marketing áwesome technology.
    Rácing has long since gone off the top ten priority list.

    Sport is not really for amusement. It really should not be confused with comedy.

    Sports are for the entertainment of those who participate and for those who spectate. This applies to little children who turn out to play Little League football on a Saturday morning, up to those old farts who play golf/bowls/darts. It's all entertainment!

    If its professional sport, then it's also for making money which includes collecting money via marketing. F1 is no different to any other sport and to think it should be, is quite silly.

    If F1 does not entertain you, then don't watch it. I manage to do this with Horse Racing, most football, Hockey, Tennis, (to name a few), because they don't entertain me. Occams Razor!

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  26. #626
    The show has moved to Paul Ricard for this weekend, a circuit that has been said to hold a similar challenge to car and driver as Barcelona, and the show goes on despite the fact that the dust hasn't quite settled after Canada. Ferrari weren't able to appeal against Vettel's penalty however they are entitled to ask for an official review, and the hearing for this is set for Friday. The Scuderia will be presenting evidence as yet to taken in to account to the stewards that presided over the Canadian GP in the hope that they may be able to influence the decision - what the difference between an appeal and an official review is I've no idea considering they could both have the same outcome.

    As already said, Paul Ricard bares a resemblance to Barcelona in that it requires a car to possess a great balance of talents. The circuit doesn't have the fastest of straights, the hardest braking zones or the tightest of hairpins, however there's enough of a mix of tighter, grip and stability sections along with faster sweepers (including Signes, one of the fastest bends on the calendar) that test power and aerodynamic efficiency. Mercedes finished 1-2 in Spain last month and finished 1-2 in France this time last year...

    Will it be Ferrari or Red Bull that take the best of the rest? Gasly is still coming to terms with the RB15 so I doubt it'll be the Frenchman on the 3rd step, though given that it's his home GP then he'll sure want to be. Between the other 3? I'm not so sure, though maybe Ferrari's new front wing that they'll be bringing along will be a positive influence for them. Renault will be wanting to impress - Hulkenberg and Ricciardo have the ability, will the team give them the car to match?

    C2 to C4 tyre compounds for the three days, with everyone shying away from the C2 and favouring the softer C4. The weather forecast is dry and warm building to hot for the weekend.

  27. #627
    From memory PR was the most unexciting race of last year, massive run offs and TV cameras so far away from the track everything is in long shot, let’s hope this year is better.

  28. #628
    After Le Mans last weekend I'm struggling to get back into F1.

  29. #629
    Quote Originally Posted by HenPecked View Post
    After Le Mans last weekend I'm struggling to get back into F1.
    Can’t argue with that, GT pro was like 24 hour sprint race

  30. #630
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    Unsurprisingly Vettel lost his appeal. Not even sure why they bothered simply because LH could have claimed that he could have overtaken SV, but didn't bother because he was already had 5 seconds in hand. Personally I remain convinced that Vettel's and Ferrari "outrage" was just a smoke screen to deflect people's attention away from the fact that SV made another mistake.

    Watching practice today 3 comments.

    1) Norris quicker than Max.

    2) what an ugly track it is. Looks like a water park without the water.

    3) What a utterly stupid trophy they have come up with, especially if LH finishes on the podium.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  31. #631
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    Good argument in this article for removing mandatory pit stops.
    https://wtf1.com/post/why-f1-should-...GiCVhCnmsSGrVs

  32. #632
    Watching FP3, it’s still a dire track to watch on TV

  33. #633
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    Another master class and clearly it's not just the car. VB's Q3 was horrible (especially his 2nd run).

    As for SV - another nightmare filled with unforced errors. He will blame the car, but as he demonstrated in Q2 its not the car. It's him! Perhaps it's time for him to follow Alonso out of the paddock and give his seat to someone better.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  34. #634
    I know I’m becoming a bore but, LS out in Q1 again whilst his teammate made P6.

  35. #635
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    I know I’m becoming a bore but, LS out in Q1 again whilst his teammate made P6.
    What qualifying are you watching? Perez qualified P14

  36. #636
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    Great performance from Grosjean who out qualified the mighty Williams...
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  37. #637
    Quote Originally Posted by jaytip View Post
    What qualifying are you watching? Perez qualified P14
    I said in Q1

  38. #638
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    Good performance by the McLarens. I wonder if it will continue in the race?

  39. #639
    Quote Originally Posted by hogthrob View Post
    Good performance by the McLarens. I wonder if it will continue in the race?
    I hope so, and I'm glad that Lando Norris is proving to be one of this season's stars. He's showing some remarkable maturity and speed behind the wheel considering the general pace of the car, McLaren's gamble on taking on the rookie is paying off.

    I'm aware of the quali results however I haven't watched it, I'm just catching the end of C4's quali show as I type - Vettel appears to have crumbled today! It hasn't been widely reported however he got married shortly after Canada, I thought he already was.

    Just watching Cyril Abiteboul's interview, if only the Renault cars were as fast as he talks...

  40. #640
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    I said in Q1
    Which is completely irrelevant. Perez went out in Q2 and only qualified 14th himself.

  41. #641
    Perez' Q2 time is very nearly a full second faster than Stroll's Q1, that's some margin. It's also Stroll's 12th successive Q1 knockout.

    I know it's easy to throw the "daddy's money" phrase about however the Canadian is yet to warrant his place in the team based on pace alone, in my humble.

  42. #642
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    Everyone is banging on about Stroll and I agree there are better drivers who have been denied a seat (Ocon) because of his daddy’s money, but did you know that he has been qualifying closer to Perez than Gasly has to Max, but no one seems to be mentioning Gasly’s shortcomings.

  43. #643
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    Gasly is very much on the spot in RB central, despite being 6th with 36 points.
    Don't take my silence for agreement. I've just realised you're too stupid to argue with.

  44. #644
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaytip View Post
    Which is completely irrelevant. Perez went out in Q2 and only qualified 14th himself.
    Not really. It shows the pace available. His qualifying is atrocious at the moment. But his Sundays are very good.

    For some reason he gets a lot of flack for the Saturdays, but not enough credit for the Sundays. Does need to sort it out though.

  45. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Gasly is very much on the spot in RB central, despite being 6th with 36 points.
    This was being spoken about during C4's coverage. I've always felt that Gasly got the seat vacated by Ricciardo because he was the best of a not too deep RB talent pool, rather than he is a potential future star as per Vestappen.

    Quote Originally Posted by WarrenVrs View Post
    Not really. It shows the pace available. His qualifying is atrocious at the moment. But his Sundays are very good.

    For some reason he gets a lot of flack for the Saturdays, but not enough credit for the Sundays. Does need to sort it out though.
    Fair point ref Sundays.

  46. #646
    If Formula1 is as green as they would want us to think, why don’t they run Paul Ricard and Monaco one after the other, just over 100 miles, rather than go to Canada and back between?
    Last edited by adrianw; 23rd June 2019 at 10:32.

  47. #647
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    If Formula1 is as green as they would want us to think, why don’t they run Paul Ricard and Monaco one after the other, just over 100 miles, rather than go to Canada and back between?
    I think the best they can claim is that they are furthering research into green engine technology. There's no hiding the huge number of artics and cargo plane miles they rack up in a year.

  48. #648
    So! Perez did exactly as he was supposed to do yet got a penalty, because the penalty box turned out to be the fastest way, you couldn’t make it up.

  49. #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    So! Perez did exactly as he was supposed to do yet got a penalty, because the penalty box turned out to be the fastest way, you couldn’t make it up.
    Really? 27.3:

    Should a car leave the track the driver may re‐join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage.

  50. #650
    Phuq this is dire, it’s like watching a high speed precession around Asda’s car park.
    I’m off to cut the grass.

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