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Thread: Formula 1 2019

  1. #601
    Quote Originally Posted by g40steve View Post
    'deliberately steered right knowing Hamilton was there', SV was correcting a 2m wide car at over 100mph on a street circuit not some vast tarmac carpark?
    The Stewards unanimously decided, after looking at all data/footage available to them, that Vettel intentionally acted in a dangerous fashion after he had recovered control of his car.

  2. #602
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeremyO View Post
    If that report from Autosport is correct then it puts the decision regarding the penalty beyond all doubt, tantamount to Vettels move on Hamilton at Baku 2017.
    From that article:

    The stewards examined slow motion footage of Vettel's actions from the moment that he had regained control and started steering his car - and felt the evidence showed that he could have made different choices that would have been within the rules.

    The footage clearly captures Vettel correcting an oversteer moment as he rejoins the track - which is shown by a sharp steering wheel movement to the right.

    Shortly after that, Vettel has sorted the oversteer and begins steering to the left to follow the direction of the circuit - suggesting he is now under control.

    But a split moment later, rather than keeping to the left, Vettel is shown to release the steering wheel - which allows his car to drift to the right, cutting off the route that Hamilton would have taken had he had clear space.


    If Vettel had "sorted the oversteer" and if his car was "under control" then I have to agree with the stewards' decision. However, is a suggestion that he was under control enough? The telemetry from the car (accelerometers etc) should be able to supply evidence to back up that suggestion...or otherwise. Was there enough time to look at the data and did the stewards do so? Are they expert enough to be able to interpret such date by themselves or do they rely on the teams to explain it to them when giving evidence?

    The stewards wrote that Vettel was "Involved in an incident as defined by Article 38.1 of the FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations" (pdf link). That article says "After review it shall be at the discretion of the stewards to decide whether or not to proceed with an investigation." I'm in no doubt that there was an incident.


    Then Article 38.2 a) continues:

    It shall be at the discretion of the stewards to decide if any driver involved in an Incident should be penalised.

    Unless it is clear to the stewards that a driver was wholly or predominantly to blame for an Incident no penalty will be imposed.

    I have to hope that the stewards have enough evidence to show the appeal that Vettel was clearly at fault.


    Then there is the last paragraph of Article 27.3 that says:

    Should a car leave the track the driver may re‐join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the race director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he gained by leaving the track.

    Why did the stewards reject this option?


    So many questions...

  3. #603
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pointy View Post
    Go & read the stewards explaination issued today. Vettel regained control & then deliberately steered right knowing Hamilton was there.

    I hope he gets banned for a few races for bringing the sport into disrepute with his behaviour after the race. It demonstrated what a classless entitled child he really is.
    Where can I find that, please? All I have seen is The Stewards Decision (Doc 42) issued yesterday. Thanks, in anticipation...

  4. #604
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    I really think that that was an unfair penalty. The rulings by the judges are sometimes ridiculous. They are taking the 'racing' out of racing. There was nothing 'unsafe' about it!

  5. #605
    Quote Originally Posted by Boss13 View Post
    I really think that that was an unfair penalty. The rulings by the judges are sometimes ridiculous. They are taking the 'racing' out of racing. There was nothing 'unsafe' about it!
    but "racing" is on the track, if the grass had been a brick wail we wouldn't be having a discussion.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    Where can I find that, please? All I have seen is The Stewards Decision (Doc 42) issued yesterday. Thanks, in anticipation...
    Adrian posted it earlier - https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...LQuXxILEvYCXfg




  7. #607
    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    but "racing" is on the track, if the grass had been a brick wail we wouldn't be having a discussion.
    Indeed.

    The Stewards are of the opinion that Vettel could have chosen to avoid forcing Hamilton off the circuit, the fact he chose to make a manoeuvre that gave Hamilton no choice other than to do so was their reasoning for issuing the penalty.

  8. #608
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    Where can I find that, please? All I have seen is The Stewards Decision (Doc 42) issued yesterday. Thanks, in anticipation...
    Thanks. In my book "it is understood that the stewards' decision was based on" does not count as "the stewards explaination" (sic) and leaves many thing to ponder on, as I posted above (#602).

  9. #609
    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    Thanks. In my book "it is understood that the stewards' decision was based on" does not count as "the stewards explaination" (sic) and leaves many thing to ponder on, as I posted above (#602).
    Fair enough. The article isn't a statement of explanation from the Stewards themselves, it's a piece written informing the reader of the Steward's decision making process.

    For me it's sounding more like Vettel was penalised not for re-joining the circuit in an unsafe manner, more it was a case of him intentionally performing a manoeuvre that was subsequently declared unsafe. He did actually recover in a safe manner (as in he in no way hindered LH during the recovery process), it was only after that recovery did he commit the crime.

  10. #610
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    Quote Originally Posted by CardShark View Post
    Fair enough. The article isn't a statement of explanation from the Stewards themselves, it's a piece written informing the reader of the Steward's decision making process.

    For me it's sounding more like Vettel was penalised not for re-joining the circuit in an unsafe manner, more it was a case of him intentionally performing a manoeuvre that was subsequently declared unsafe. He did actually recover in a safe manner (as in he in no way hindered LH during the recovery process), it was only after that recovery did he commit the crime.
    And then both drivers were on the team radio with messages that were 'for the stewards' , according to the TV pundits.

    When I occasionally watch football I am dismayed by players, diving, rolling around on the ground etc...all in an attempt to influence the match officials. I'm sad to see F1 going the same way, but then the drivers are professional sportsmen too.

  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraniteQuarry View Post
    Could've been worse; he could've invaded Poland.

    Who? Vettel or LH.

    It does seem that some people think that it's all LH/Mercedes fault for creating the pressure on Vettel, causing Vettel to leave the track, for having to break to avoid running into Vettel or the wall and for then asking for the incident to be investigated to the Stewards - what utter bastards?

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  12. #612
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    for then asking for the incident to be investigated to the Stewards - what utter bastards?
    It is indeed like football players asking for a yellow card to be issued.
    Whether Hamilton, Vettel, Verstappen or whomever, imo it is poor sportmanship to address the stewards or act for them on the team radio.
    Stewards should take exception as it is basically an insult to their eyesight and intelligence.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  13. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    And then both drivers were on the team radio with messages that were 'for the stewards' , according to the TV pundits.

    When I occasionally watch football I am dismayed by players, diving, rolling around on the ground etc...all in an attempt to influence the match officials. I'm sad to see F1 going the same way, but then the drivers are professional sportsmen too.
    Going that way? It's been that way for a long, long time. In all sports.

    Sent from my GM1903 using Tapatalk

  14. #614
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    Where can I find that, please? All I have seen is The Stewards Decision (Doc 42) issued yesterday. Thanks, in anticipation...

    Surprised you need it given that only last year you posted.

    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    27.3..."Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and..."


    Edit Those of you with replay should be able to see if he left the track:
    "Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not."


    Update "Driver and team representative are required to report to the Stewards" at 17h30 local...that's 16h30 BST.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  15. #615
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Surprised you need it given that only last year you posted.
    Not surprised that you're surprised.

  16. #616
    Jolyon Palmer makes his point well - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/form...c87DzDO-m2E9rQ

    In other news Renault had a great weekend by their usual standards, apparently Hulkenberg was asked to hang back from his team mate and not engage in any kind of battle and put points at risk. McLaren went from hero to pretty much zero, Magnussen is still probably unable to sit down after the kicking he got from his boss and George Russel beat his teammate again. The 2019 version of Bottas failed to turn up at the circuit on Sunday, he didn't look that racy at all.
    Last edited by CardShark; 10th June 2019 at 23:15.

  17. #617
    Hypocrite?

    https://youtu.be/xCvyhkyinQs

    Vettel is a master at selective whingeing.
    Last edited by watchcollector1; 11th June 2019 at 12:18.

  18. #618
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    There was an excellent Vlog by Rosberg following the race.

    In summary, whilst he had considerable sympathy for Vettel, he believed that Vettel simply folded under the pressure (again). Rosberg also believed that Vettel knew exactly what he was doing in allowing his car to run wide and prevent LH the overtake oportunity. He admitted that's exactly what he would have done.

    Watching the video from LH car, LH had to break hard in order not to hit either the wall or SV car and was pretty much 100% off track at the time. Proper squeaky bum time hence why LH said it was a "dangerous" re-entry.

    Rosberg also made the point that driving an F1 car at close to 200 mph, inches away from concrete walls was very stressful But nowhere near as stressful as doing the same with Lewis Hamilton in all over your gearbox at the same time. The leader knows that if LH makes a mistake, he loses 0.5 seconds and will try again, however if the leader makes a mistake, then there is a very good chance they will lose the race.

    He should know, he had to deal with for 4 years.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  19. #619
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    It is indeed like football players asking for a yellow card to be issued.
    Whether Hamilton, Vettel, Verstappen or whomever, imo it is poor sportmanship to address the stewards or act for them on the team radio.
    Stewards should take exception as it is basically an insult to their eyesight and intelligence.

    Show me a single sport where this isn't the case and I will happily agree with you.

    Perhaps Vettel should have referred himself to the Stewards and asked whether he should give up the position, rather than relying on others to do it for him?

    Not as strange as you think. Many golfers actually do refer themselves to the Stewards that if they think they have infringed to rules. Why? Because if they sign their card with an incorrect score it means disqualification from the event, not just a one or two shot penalty.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  20. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    Show me a single sport where this isn't the case and I will happily agree with you.
    Since when is ´everybody does it´ an argument?
    You try this when caught speeding per example.

    At the end of it, it is unsportsman like behaviour which imo should be discouraged. Why not start with F1? Clamp down on it ónce and teams will do the rest. Can you give me a proper reason as to why not?


    Ásking the stweards whether or not to give up the position is something entirely different but imo should not be a task/worry for the driver. He has more acute things to concentrate on.
    The team should relay; ´you race, we´ll address the stewards´.
    Last edited by Huertecilla; 12th June 2019 at 09:48.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  21. #621
    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    Since when is ´everybody does it´ an argument?
    You try this when caught speeding per example.

    At the end of it, it is unsportsman like behaviour which imo should be discouraged. Why not start with F1? Clamp down on it ónce and teams will do the rest. Can you give me a proper reason as to why not?


    Ásking the stweards whether or not to give up the position is something entirely different but imo should not be a task/worry for the driver. He has more acute things to concentrate on.
    The team should relay; ´you race, we´ll address the stewards´.
    Verstappen would be first in the queue to do this.............................................. ................

  22. #622
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    As you know I don´t care whó does ´it´.
    I only have a Dutch passport becaue my mother gave birth to me in the Netherlands.
    If anything I find it nauseating that any form of motorised racing has been politcally incorrect in the Netherlands for décades and that all is possible nów because of a Dutch bloke being successful in F1.

    When Michael vd Mark won the Jerez Superbike that was cool for a different personal reason; I used to race with his dad. This win passed totally unnoticed by the general public in the Netherlands btw.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  23. #623
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    Since when is ´everybody does it´ an argument?
    You try this when caught speeding per example.

    At the end of it, it is unsportsman like behaviour which imo should be discouraged. Why not start with F1? Clamp down on it ónce and teams will do the rest. Can you give me a proper reason as to why not?


    Ásking the stweards whether or not to give up the position is something entirely different but imo should not be a task/worry for the driver. He has more acute things to concentrate on.
    The team should relay; ´you race, we´ll address the stewards´.
    The "everyone does it" is a perfectly valid arguement because of precedence set and the fact that no law/rule was broken. Hence it will continue until the authorities stop it with Laws/Rules/Penalitied. But now show me a sport where it is not common place?

    You also seem to fail to understand why the TV company broadcast the radio messages. It's not just for the information for the viewers - it provides drama, entertainment, etc all of which adds to the experience. Didn't the media/fans get all excited when Max tried to beat up Leclerc last season? And his penality was a small fine and community service. If the FIA really wanted to stop this sort of behaviour they would have banned him for a season. Yet they didn't. Why do you think that was?

    As for your final point.

    So what you are saying that drivers have time to bitch and moan about other drivers, the state of his tires, the temperature of his brakes, a furry aninmal is on the track, or in Vettel case, to have a hissy fit about being cheated out of a race, etc, etc, but its to difficult for the driver to ask whether he should give up a position because he was concerned he might have broken the rules.

    Yeh, right!

    But I do agree that it would be great if everyone were more honest, behaved better and treated others with a bit more understanding, humanity, dignity whilst being less hypocritical and rude. Perhaps a good place to start would be on this tread so we can set an example to others.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
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  24. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andyg View Post
    The "everyone does it" is a perfectly valid arguement because

    ...


    But I do agree that it would be great if everyone were more honest, behaved better and treated others with a bit more understanding, humanity, dignity whilst being less hypocritical and rude. Perhaps a good place to start would be on this tread so we can set an example to others.
    I agree.
    F1 is formostly an amusement show against the backdrop of marketing áwesome technology.
    Rácing has long since gone off the top ten priority list.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  25. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    I agree.
    F1 is formostly an amusement show against the backdrop of marketing áwesome technology.
    Rácing has long since gone off the top ten priority list.

    Sport is not really for amusement. It really should not be confused with comedy.

    Sports are for the entertainment of those who participate and for those who spectate. This applies to little children who turn out to play Little League football on a Saturday morning, up to those old farts who play golf/bowls/darts. It's all entertainment!

    If its professional sport, then it's also for making money which includes collecting money via marketing. F1 is no different to any other sport and to think it should be, is quite silly.

    If F1 does not entertain you, then don't watch it. I manage to do this with Horse Racing, most football, Hockey, Tennis, (to name a few), because they don't entertain me. Occams Razor!

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


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