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Bollocks, CLC at least needed to be behind him to get the swap done.Originally Posted by ryanb741
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A deserved win for merc, they had the faster race car
Can't. Stop. Laughing.
Bollocks, CLC at least needed to be behind him to get the swap done.
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A deserved win for merc, they had the faster race car
God was clearly watching Ferrari, and their antics, and didn't approve.
Great drive by Lewis and to set fastest lap on old knacked tires, must have really rubbed it in.
Albon had an excellent race and is worthy of praise.
Hilarious and very entertaining. People who think F1 is boring need to get out more.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
I'm really going off Seb recently.
Good result for Lewis though
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The reason SV got driver of the day was because he deserved it,
True, but I missed the name of Albon in the list of Driver of the Day! From starting in the pit-lane to #5. Had it been one of the 4 in front of him, they would have been voted to driver of the day, every single one of them.
To go from third to first in the first couple of corners was pretty good, but how can he be driver of the day when he dropped out after 20 odd laps. I most however say his parking certainly spiced things up.
Last edited by Andyg; 29th September 2019 at 15:27.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
They probably have, not sitting at home watching the box.
If there was a pre-race agreement within Ferrari whereby Vettel should either not overtake Leclerc or give the place back if he does then Vettel is in the wrong for not following such agreement. The reason why he didn't (of such agreement existed) is because a) it's "Multi-21" Vettel and b) he's genuinely threatened by his teammate and wants/needs maximum points in an attempt to keep Leclerc in his place, the issue with that is Leclerc has already proved his worth.
I'd rather he hadn't retired personally, it took away a potential racing element of the event as well as the intrigue of any potential in-team political fallout. The German was quick prior to retirement, it would have been good to see where he could have finished.
...and Albon should have been the driver of the day, by some margin.
Team orders?
'Ze German' clearly does not take them as such.
Karma?, perhaps. These people are being paid a large fortune to win races, as part of a team.
Driver of the day? Nah - he has been pretty average all year so far and made some really dumb mistakes.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
I can't understand anyone having a problem with Vettel today. Total non issue.
LeClerc wasn't anywhere near close enough to allow Vettel to slow and let him past, without dropping too close to the mercedes, jeopardising a potential 1-2.
The agreement was a bit stupid, much safer to execute later on, or during the pitstops.
LeClerc is talented, massively. But he needs to stop whining. He took the piss at Monza, it's difficult to find sympathy if the favour is returned.
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Binotto seems to have confirmed that there was an agreement to swap, but the timing hadn't been discussed.
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In defence of Vettel, he was quicker than CLC and about 3 seconds down the road before he asked to move over. Hamilton was about 2.5 seconds behind LeClerc on harder tires which would (in theory) last longer than the softs. If Vettel had slowed to CLC catch him, then LH might have been able to jump them both. Hence I think Vettel did the right thing to try and build a lead. An opportunity to let CLC through at a later part of the race always remained an option.
Personally it was really stupid of Ferrari to suggest that CLC should be let through with LH only a couple of seconds behind - especially so early in the race. Lap 52 might have been a better idea assuming SV and CLC had established a decent lead.
Classic own goal because Ferrari tried to be cute. They should just let them race. It's a strategy that works well for Mercedes.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
I think it;ls six-to-one half-a-dozen to the other.
If you look at the start replay Vettel drafts Leclerc a little, but Leclerc makes no effort to defind the inside, which suggests there clearly was an agreement. I bet the agreement was that they thought Hamilton would slipstream, so if Leclerc stays to the left, Vettel could also slipstream, but take Hamilton on the inside (thus boxing out Hamilton).
So what Vettel did 'wrong' was slipstream Leclerc and take the place, rather than using the slipstream to get Hamilton (as that was uncessary). Hence the need to swap back. The agreement would be "we'll work together to be 1 & 2", but there are huge flaws with this plan. Firstly, if you don't need to get past Hamilton, what happens then? Secondly were they all clear on who would be 1 & 2? Thirdly, it's WAY overthinking...
So I don't think Vettel should take too much blame. Perhaps he knew the flaw in the 'plan' and figured out how to take advantage of it. It's like when Senna and Prost had a falling out at Imola, after agreeing no overtaking after the first corner, but Senna overtook on the restart, honouring the letter of the agreement if not the spirit. Vettle has done that here I think.
But where Vettel is to blame is not obeying team orders. He was right! But, it is a big deal to break team orders, and as a result the team trying to level it up messed up the win. BUT it was a totally stupid plan, and Vettle needs to get his elbows out a bit if he doesn't want to be No2.
Lol
In that case I’d like to nominate myself - drove to Budgens earlier for some milk, didn’t annoy the management and made it all the way home without breaking the car.
All very fair points of view and, upon reflection, I'm in agreement. Given the circumstances at the point at which Vettel was first asked to let Leclerc through it would have given Hamilton an advantage should he had done so, and you simply can't be doing that. As it was Leclerc got the undercut so the positions were "rectified" then, it's a shame though that we were denied the opportunity to see if Vettel could take the fight back to his teammate again as there's no doubting that he had speed.
Vettel does have a track record of being selfish on circuit, that he thinks of himself before his team/mate. That kind of attitude may gain you points however you're sure not going to win many friends, it may have also contributed to my original way of thinking.
Mercedes had to work for their win and they duly acknowledged that. They had a seemingly insurmountable level of performance for the first half of the season with Ferrari languishing in their wake, that's evidentially not the case any more. Fair play to the Italian outfit.
Re Vettel's DOTD, he only got 21% of the votes cast so there must have been a good total number of drivers who received a share as well.
Oh there is definately some of this. Vettel chose to overtake. He knew he was well past Hamilton, so could have still stuck with second after the start. And IMHO Vettel is very petulant!
Vettel passed CLC because it appears to have been agreed at the start that CLC would give him a good slip stream to get into P2 but stay there.
CLC therefore didn’t defend the corner as he wasn’t expecting to be passed. For SV to do so having been assisted in to the position he was in, was hardly sportsmanlike but that’s not unexpected from SV.
I’m sure he’s still grinning in his beer that his engine problem scuppered CLC’s race win!
It didn't, it just changed the strategies a bit, Merc had him on tyres anyway.
I think the big issue over the Ferrari agreement came when Vettel made a blinding start and would've out-dragged Charles anyway. Trying to control the race the way they did was clumsy and Vettel probably would've saved a 1-2 with his suggestion over delaying the swap - I think Hamilton would've ended up in a prime place to pounce on them. The fact Charles couldn't get close to him on pace just made the whole thing crazy.
It would be fascinating to find out where the extra pace is coming from in the Ferrari, bearing in mind it has been noted that it's predominantly quali pace, without showing such proportionally strong race pace.
I guess they must either be harvesting energy much more efficiently, or deploying in a 'better' way.
I wonder whether any of the other teams have considered trying the low-drag set up - remarkable how well it's been working for Ferrari.
The Beeb sum it up well here:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/49872162
ie Vettel was/is a tw@t and reneged on the agreement. The team may, or may not, have taken him out of the race after that.
That's not what happened.
From Binotto
"We agreed together that the best way was not to give any slipstream to Hamilton first, and therefore Charles would have given the slipstream to Seb.
“That was what we agreed, by giving the slipstream to Seb and not defending the position would have given an advantage to Seb which later on in the race we would give back by swapping the cars. So that was the deal."
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From the horses mouth, I stand corrected.
The problem, is that there was an agreement that the swap would happen was in place, but the timing hadn't been agreed. LeClerc has recently been a silly on the radio (which he acknowledged) but then repeated to a degree again.
A late race swap, or pitlane swap was always going to be the best way to minimize the mercedes risk.
Asking a guy that's 3 seconds up the road to slow sufficiently to allow a slower driver through is stupid. Ferrari have made this an issue, when it wasn't.
A nice simple pit swap would of ensured the 1-2 were it not for the retirement/safety car.
Although had they tried to hold back Vettel late on, I think he'd have rightfully ignored that.
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Ferrari have managed to get a low drag set up that doesn't destroy the tyres ie doesn't slide too much on the bends, the other teams have either not been brave enough to try it or cannot make it work, most drivers far prefer a planted feeling rather than everything being a bit loose.
I very much doubt that the team terminated Vettel's race, if that's what you're referring to - there are a few reasons why it wouldn't be considered.
He clearly had pace and very good point scoring potential, as a team you can't give that up. What if Leclerc DNF'd? Even more points lost plus, if it was a DNF as a result of car failure or driver error, a loss of face. What if rivals fell by the wayside? An opportunity to capitalise on the misfortune of others would be lost.
It's fun to speculate on such matters however the reality is much more straight forward.
Vettel's definitely starting to feel the heat of a new, and clearly a potentially more talented "team mate", where he feels a sense of entitlement based on the past and not the future of the team.
I haven't ever seen him as being a real team player, just ask Mark Webber when they were at Red Bull............ he has history of making his feelings known
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mo...tensifies.html
Last edited by alanm_3; 30th September 2019 at 12:37. Reason: Link added
From the Beeb article:
“It seems, though, that Vettel did not fulfil his part of the bargain, and - although they denied it afterwards - it looked as if the team had to take things into their own hands to resolve it.”
I'm pretty sure that this is referring to pitting Leclerc before Vettel and holding the German out for maybe a lap or two longer than necessary handing the Monegasque a guaranteed undercut -
"On lap 22, Leclerc was brought into the pits for fresh tyres. Vettel was left out for four further laps, on the second of which he said his tyres were going off. Vettel pitted on lap 26 and rejoined a couple of seconds behind Leclerc, only to retire after three-quarters of a lap with a failure in his hybrid system."
Last edited by CardShark; 30th September 2019 at 13:36.
I would be interested to know the power difference between the power units but I guess that’s a closely guarded secret!
Did Vettel goose his own engine by driving the b*llocks off it, trying to prove his was the faster car?
No.
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I doubt it will be huge, this is all about drag
I do wonder if Ferrari Management have a big red "kill switch" in pits. If a driver disobeys team orders, or gets a bit lary, then the kill switch will be pressed and the engine will die.
Might even be a FIA reg
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Funnily enough, all the teams have them, but it against the rules to remote control the car, all telemetry other than vital signs is one way.I do wonder if Ferrari Management have a big red "kill switch" in pits. If a driver disobeys team orders, or gets a bit lary, then the kill switch will be pressed and the engine will die.
Might even be a FIA reg
Not sure about that but Vettel certainly has a Self Destruct button.I do wonder if Ferrari Management have a big red "kill switch" in pits. If a driver disobeys team orders, or gets a bit lary, then the kill switch will be pressed and the engine will die.
Might even be a FIA reg
One more season of Bottas at Mercedes, and then Lando Norris?
https://www.planetf1.com/news/lando-...rcedes-report/
Hmm, "you can have our engines again, if..."
So, Daddy Stroll buys a team whilst Daddy Norris buys a load of Merc engines. Ho hum...
Yep, another rich kid in motor racing
https://www.horatioinvestments.com/
But in fairness Lando is doing far better than Stroll in his rookie season.
oh yes
Or maybe not
https://www.grandprix247.com/2019/10...-is-fake-news/
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Thank goodness! After the uninspiring and unremitting dreariness that is Sochi, F1 is back at a proper circuit this weekend - you know, one that's a bit narrow, follows the natural contours of the land on which it is built, has a couple of awesome corners, and is bordered by grass and/or gravel.
Alright, there are a couple of "get out of jail free" tarmac run-offs, but largely, Suzuka is one of the very few tracks left on the calendar which hasn't suffered the attentions of Hermann Tilke and his geometry set.
There is a potential issue looming over the horizon which may affect the race, which is the typhoon heading towards Japan, and predicted to disrupt both the Grand Prix and Rugby World Cup. Bad weather is a regular feature of the Japanese Grand Prix, so the organisers are used to it and can be expected to shuffle the schedule around and put the show on regardless.
Tyres will play an important role this weekend, as Suzuka is notoriously abrasive, and Pirelli are supplying their three hardest compounds. There is only one DRS zone, along the Start/Finish straight.
The team to watch will be Red Bull, because this is Honda's home race, and both Red Bull and Toro Rosso took penalties at Sochi in order to use the new, upgraded power units at Suzuka, a circuit which rewards cars with efficient aero to take advantage of the medium and high-speed corners, and good direction change for the Esses, 130R, Turn 1, Degner 1 and Spoon. If Honda have achieved power unit parity with Mercedes and Ferrari, the Red Bull's chassis should do the rest.
It's probably the race which I enjoy more than any other, and the prospect of having three teams fighting it out at the front means that this year's race will be unmissable.
Even if it does mean getting up early on Sunday morning.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
I read somewhere that if it gets cancelled due to poor weather Hamilton wins the championship or if Merc get a one two they win the manufactures title
they made the decision on Wednesday to cancel Saturdays rugby matches, lets hope they are not so rash with the F!
F1 are generally less concerned about the plight of local/travelling fans, so I expect it will go ahead. Worst case the qualifying moves to Sunday morning, then the race is cancelled after 3 laps when Stroll aquaplanes backwards into an out of control Magnussen.
I’m sure we’ve seen this sort of thing before in Japan (more than once)
Apparently there's already plans in place to (potentially) have qualifying at 9am (local time) on Sunday morning so they're prepared for it and we've seen it before.
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