SC purchase, what to do when it’s not quite 100%

[snowman]

On my watches that old, I'm happy if the minute hand is right over a day (nothing in my life is that critical, anything that is close, I'm early for), so I don't think it's unreasonable to consider 10 seconds a day 'spot on', personally.

If the buyer was really unhappy, I would probably offer to take the watch back if the buyer paid to return it.

Sometimes a small reimbursement makes sense, but if someone is genuinely unhappy about something they're usually happy to return it for a refund.

In non-watch related transactions, I've had people angling for a partial refund to effectively reduce their cost and sellers offering a partial refund for me 'to get it fixed' without actually knowing the fault and therefore the cost of any repair.

M

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[boundary546]

This. I wonder how old the OP is? Some of us grew up wearing watches at school in the 1960s or 70s, cheap 1 jewel mechanicals that were often a minute or more out by the end of the day. An average of 10s out on a 50 year old movement, non-cosc, is a minor miracle that needs appreciation. I'm not sure if I would describe it as spot on but I would describe it as 'pretty good'.

I grew up / went to school in the 70's and 80's. Every watch I had back then was quartz. I got my first mechanical watch in the mid 90's and haven't owned a quartz since. I've had Tag Heuer, Rolex, Tudor, Omega, Steinhart, Longines, and none of them have been as much as 10 seconds per day out, maybe I have been lucky.
This is the first vintage watch I have owned, but I thought that any movement can run fairly accurately if well serviced ?
My point wasn't if -10 seconds per day was good or bad for a 552 movement but whether this is classed as spot on which the seller claimed before purchase. It is only post purchase that the seller claims he knew it was losing time but thought it was 2-3 seconds per day, which I would have been over the moon with. My opinion is that 2-3 seconds could be classed as spot on, I wouldn't class 10 seconds per day as spot on.
I have never had a problem with a watch I have sold on here, but I did have a minor problem with a mobile phone I sold. I immediately offered the buyer a full refund and ended up agreeing on a partial refund to pay for the repair. I haven't asked the seller for a refund on this occasion as he basically doesn't want to know, he has the money, i don't even have his sympathy !
It looks like I will have to take it on the chin, the watch is a cool thing so I will probably just have to take it in to be checked out and serviced.
You live and learn

[PhilT]

I get your point - you feel that you’ve been misled, and to make things worse you haven’t had “satisfaction” from the seller in the follow up.

There was a time when this would have made my blood boil, but I’ve come to realise that self preservation is key - walk away, find a positive association for your lovely new watch and don’t let the nasty people get you down.

:-)

[Dave+63]

It looks like I will have to take it on the chin, the watch is a cool thing so I will probably just have to take it in to be checked out and serviced.
You live and learn

I don’t really think that there is anything to “take on the chin”; you’ve a non COSC vintage watch which is keeping excellent time considering it’s age.

Even new non COSC movements are specced at +/- 20spd. Granted most perform far better than that but 20spd is deemed acceptable for a mechanical movement.

[beechcustom]

To echo other comments, 'spot on' is too vague but to me it would either imply +/-0 or 'within manufacturers spec'. I personally would have asked for more timing clarification from the seller.

[Der Amf]

I don’t really think that there is anything to “take on the chin”; you’ve a non COSC vintage watch which is keeping excellent time considering it’s age.

Even when new, 10s/d would have been no cause for complaint, so yes, "excellent" indeed.

One time buying a vintage watch I discovered that timekeeping described as "fine" = losing 3 *minutes* a day. THAT was taking something on the chin.

[Foxy100]

In complete agreement with those comments re questions and answers.. I bought a vintage Omega the other week with a picture of the timegrapher showing *1 per day.. when i got it the watch was losing 30seconds a day.. the seller asked me to post it to the watch repairer he used and I paid the return postage costs.. which he wouldnt cover!! I didnt post negative feedback over 24 pound but In hindsight I wish I had..

Do you think the seller was lying or do you think there's a chance it was one second per day and took a knock in the post?

[Montello]

I grew up / went to school in the 70's and 80's. Every watch I had back then was quartz. I got my first mechanical watch in the mid 90's and haven't owned a quartz since. I've had Tag Heuer, Rolex, Tudor, Omega, Steinhart, Longines, and none of them have been as much as 10 seconds per day out, maybe I have been lucky.
This is the first vintage watch I have owned, but I thought that any movement can run fairly accurately if well serviced ?
My point wasn't if -10 seconds per day was good or bad for a 552 movement but whether this is classed as spot on which the seller claimed before purchase. It is only post purchase that the seller claims he knew it was losing time but thought it was 2-3 seconds per day, which I would have been over the moon with. My opinion is that 2-3 seconds could be classed as spot on, I wouldn't class 10 seconds per day as spot on.
I have never had a problem with a watch I have sold on here, but I did have a minor problem with a mobile phone I sold. I immediately offered the buyer a full refund and ended up agreeing on a partial refund to pay for the repair. I haven't asked the seller for a refund on this occasion as he basically doesn't want to know, he has the money, i don't even have his sympathy !
It looks like I will have to take it on the chin, the watch is a cool thing so I will probably just have to take it in to be checked out and serviced.
You live and learn

Your expectations are out of line. If this was a big deal for you you should have qualified what he meant by spot on ... for a vintage 552 I’d say that was ok.

If my old watches run within 10s I’m happy with that.

I’m not sure there is anything to take on the chin here, maybe vintage isn’t for you.

[walkerwek1958]

The fact that this watch is running at -10 secs/day is telling us very little about its condition. The amplitude and positional variation would tell a more comprehensive story and an inspection by someone who knows what hes looking at would complete the picture..........almost. The only sure-fire way to assess the condition is to strip it down and that’s a bit drastic.

In good condition for the age I’d hope to see over 260 degrees amplitude fully wound, with the span of positional variation no greater than 20 seconds. I would then be confident to regulate the watch to run between 0 and +5 secs/day, but this would be affected by wear pattern and state of wind. When I regulate a watch I determine the rate it runs at on the wrist by wearing it for a few hours and checking against a quartz analogue watch. I also check the rate overnight with the watch running dial-up. Hopefully the two rates will be close, but on a watch like this the rates could vary by as much as 14 seconds, the watch might run +7 dial up and -7 on the wrist. Based on 16hrs wear and 8hrs dial up the overall rate will be around -2.5 secs/day and this could be improved by regulating the watch to run at +10 dial up. The owner would then be happy, with the watch running at between 0 and +2 when worn daily, but the watch is NOT meeting COSC, it’s merely been regulated carefully to optimise performance. Even if a watch isn’t running well it can sometimes be regulated to create the illusion its in good condition and that’s why a full check as described is the only way to tell.

A common fault on old automatics is a worn mainspring barrel. If fully wound the watch will reach good amplitude but this will fall over 20-30 seconds as the mainspring slips around the barrel to leave the watch running with lower amplitude and reduced power reserve.

The last vintage Omega I bought is a 552, it’s in superb condition but its running +70 secs/day. Amplitudes reasonable but the watch would benefit from being serviced and I’ll do that when I get chance. Meanwhile I wear it ocassionally and enjoy owning it. I’m delighted with the watch, it took 3 years to find a good one, but to some folks it would be seen as a bad buy because its gaining lots of time. Glass half- full or half-empty?

OPs watch might need a small adjustment to the regulation, or it might need a complete thorough service. Unless the seller can provide evidence that a watch has been serviced properly in the recent past its wise to assume it’ll need attention and budget accordingly when buying. When I started collecting vintage watches the first thing I’d do was take the watch to my local repairer and have it serviced, in most cases they needed it too!

[village]

.....
This is the first vintage watch I have owned, but I thought that any movement can run fairly accurately if well serviced ?.......

My point wasn't if -10 seconds per day was good or bad for a 552 movement but whether this is classed as spot on which the seller claimed before purchase. ........

It looks like I will have to take it on the chin, the watch is a cool thing so I will probably just have to take it in to be checked out and serviced

And here are your problems in a nutshell.
Firstly, you now declare it's your first vintage watch so you have unreasonable expectations, borne of ignorance*, of an old movement that,as already mentioned,wasn't designed to be much different to +/- 10s when new. Secondly,you appear to be under the misapprehension that a service will magically alter the specs of this movement. A good watch fettler 'may' be able to achieve better than +\- 10s but it would be unlikely to be much different...maybe 5s better? I certainly wouldn't expect much.

* not intended to be rude.....many of us have been through the same learning curve

[learningtofly]

Not like you to overreact

[boundary546]

Not like you to overreact

Or maybe I prefer things to be accurately described ?

[walkerwek1958]

First thing I check on a 550/560 Omega is the rotor, if its rattling against the caseback the rotor bush is worn. Second check is the hand- winding, if it feels ‘gritty’ the reverser either needs lubricating or replacing.

[walkerwek1958]

Or maybe I prefer things to be accurately described ?

In the context of a vintage watch I don’t think the seller has been wildly inaccurate or misleading.That’s my final comment on this thread, a few of us have tried to be constructive and pointed out that your expectations might be flawed, but you’re clearly not taking it on board.

Suggest you find someone to check the watch thoroughly and regulate it if it bothers you so much. I won’t be volunteering, judging by your attitude I think you could be hard work to deal with.

Two final points: are you confident your timing reference source is correct? Have you ensured the watch is running in a high state of wind?

Paul

[Papa Hotel]

A 40-50 year old watch is running within the specs of when it was brand new. And we're onto the second page of outrage?

And to think, they told me watches aren't fun, what a boring hobby you have Papa Hotel! This is living.

[Wallasey Runner]

Just missed a bus by 8 secs - curse the guy on here who sold the watch it to me, told me it was tickety-boo.

Didn't really - just being silly.

Out of interest, I had one (or several) new full metal G-shocks. Connected to an atomic clock via Blue tooth and "adjusted" four times daily. Now that was seriously spot on.

I agree 10 secs on a vintage watch is good. This really is a non thread. Has the OP asked for a refund yet?

[MFB Scotland]

Presume it is the Seamaster 300 (on sales corner).

My first thoughts on this thread was buyers remorse.

[ped]

99.988% accurate, or whatever the quoted figure is, for -10 spd isn't really very 'accurate' in itself. That assumes that 'INaccurate' is a watch out by 100%, however I think most of us would consider a watch 'inaccurate' at far less than that - perhaps out my five minutes a day? So as a proportion of THAT level of inaccuracy (a more realistic reference), -10 spd isn't that accurate now.

That said, my main watch is a vintage piece and I have to bump it along a couple minutes every few days, it doesn't bother me at all and I have in the past been forensic about accuracy, until I realised that it doesn't matter to me. I found it interesting as a curiosity but practically it means nothing when I have to hand wind every day anyway and nothing I do requires to-the-second accuracy; even if it did, I'd have to worry about more timepieces than my own.

If it really bothered me, I'd perhaps have it regulated at it's next service, but not something to lose sleep over.

[ac11111]

My 1950s IWC manual wind with 89 movement is with 2 seconds a day. That’s almost 70 years old. It must be a miracle! But then again it is the 89 iwc movement.

http://www.woundforlife.com/2014/12/...wc-caliber-89/

[Omegamanic]

99.988% accurate, or whatever the quoted figure is, for -10 spd isn't really very 'accurate' in itself. That assumes that 'INaccurate' is a watch out by 100%, however I think most of us would consider a watch 'inaccurate' at far less than that - perhaps out my five minutes a day? So as a proportion of THAT level of inaccuracy (a more realistic reference), -10 spd isn't that accurate now.

That said, my main watch is a vintage piece and I have to bump it along a couple minutes every few days, it doesn't bother me at all and I have in the past been forensic about accuracy, until I realised that it doesn't matter to me. I found it interesting as a curiosity but practically it means nothing when I have to hand wind every day anyway and nothing I do requires to-the-second accuracy; even if it did, I'd have to worry about more timepieces than my own.

If it really bothered me, I'd perhaps have it regulated at it's next service, but not something to lose sleep over.

10 second variation may not be “that accurate now” but no brand advertised mechanical watches of better than COSC (except some rarer models Geneve Seal, Seiko etc.) until very recent times.

20 years ago all but COSC and a few exceptions would have been within 10 seconds a day.

Its a bit like buying a 70’s Ferrari and it performing as good as the day it left the factory, but getting bent out of shape or disappointed that the latest model is outperforming yours.

10 secs per day for a 40/50 year old movement is fanbloodytastic - but it was also well wishing the specification for the watch the day it was sold.

Some watchmakers may have got some of these older movements to perform very well on a timer - but they most likely won’t get all they look at and service to get anywhere near the best without change a lot of parts, and even then the movements were not sold as hitting those figures.

Personally, I’d be pretty damn impressed with the performance.

[Mick P]

When you buy a second hand mechanical watch, always and I mean always ignore what the seller says and wack it in for a service. I have done this with every Rolex I have every bought.

This gives you peace of mind on its spec and you know you got 8 or so years ahead of you before it needs another service. Plus you got up to date paperwork.

[mylofitz]

A watch just sold on the forum where the ad stated "It's keeping good time" so who knows how much that might be out by. Nothing wrong in that statement or in being 'spot on', there just needs to be a reasonable level of expectation.

Regarding it being spot on - 10 secs is 99.988% I'd be pleased with 10 secs for a vintage piece and where position can have a fair significance on the timekeeping. How you rest it at night could bring that count down significantly ( could also make it worse). Just a matter of trial and error.

[Chinnock]

"Spot on" might have been the wrong wording for 10sec but as already stated, for a vintage movement of this age that is bloody good.

[SteveHarris]

I think it's all to do with expectation OP. If you've never had a vintage watch, you would probably think (as you do) that -10s is not spot on at all. If you're seller with an experience of vintage watches and all that entails you would describe it as spot-on. It's a case of mis-matched expectations I'm afraid.

If it was me as the seller, I would probably just refund you and take the watch back but the seller would be be quite justified in refusing to do so as well in my opinion.

Steve

[ped]

10 second variation may not be “that accurate now” but no brand advertised mechanical watches of better than COSC (except some rarer models Geneve Seal, Seiko etc.) until very recent times.

20 years ago all but COSC and a few exceptions would have been within 10 seconds a day.

Its a bit like buying a 70’s Ferrari and it performing as good as the day it left the factory, but getting bent out of shape or disappointed that the latest model is outperforming yours.

10 secs per day for a 40/50 year old movement is fanbloodytastic - but it was also well wishing the specification for the watch the day it was sold.

Some watchmakers may have got some of these older movements to perform very well on a timer - but they most likely won’t get all they look at and service to get anywhere near the best without change a lot of parts, and even then the movements were not sold as hitting those figures.

Personally, I’d be pretty damn impressed with the performance.

I think you missed my point which was purely with the measure of accuracy from a mathematical point. I agree the watch is very accurate at 10spd.

[Hood]

When you buy a second hand mechanical watch, always and I mean always ignore what the seller says and wack it in for a service. I have done this with every Rolex I have every bought.

This gives you peace of mind on its spec and you know you got 8 or so years ahead of you before it needs another service. Plus you got up to date paperwork.

Its an old Omega and already had a recent service.

[pugster]

imo 10s/d for a vintage watch is fine so it comes under the 'have a word with yourself' section.

i guess it comes down to how precise you expect a description to be when most of the time ppl are guessing ( how many of us have a proper timing machine to hand? )

you could of course ask for a refund but might have trouble buying watches from ppl in the future if they think that its just going to cause grief when you realise the watch is 10 spd instead of the 8 they said or it weighs 48.5g instead of the 50g you were told.

[Mick P]

Its an old Omega and already had a recent service.

Define what is meant by a recent service.

Old Omegas should be serviced by Omega and no one else.

My old boss took his fathers 1950s Seamaster to Omega for a service and they made a wonderful job of it. Taking it to an indy is dereliction of duty.

[seadog1408]

Define what is meant by a recent service.

Old Omegas should be serviced by Omega and no one else.

My old boss took his fathers 1950s Seamaster to Omega for a service and they made a wonderful job of it. Taking it to an indy is dereliction of duty.

​CODSWALLOP.

[Mick P]

​CODSWALLOP.

Remind me never to by a watch off you.

[Hood]

Define what is meant by a recent service.

Old Omegas should be serviced by Omega and no one else.

My old boss took his fathers 1950s Seamaster to Omega for a service and they made a wonderful job of it. Taking it to an indy is dereliction of duty.

[seadog1408]

Remind me never to by a watch off you.

You have continually spouted nonsense since your arrival, I wouldn't sell you the steam off my pi$$.

[ped]

Remind me never to by a watch off you.

To be fair it was a ridiculous thing to say. Please don’t ever buy a watch from me!

[Mick P]

Grow up and try to be original, that old pic has been going around for yonks and posting it is a bit childish to say the least.

Omega are holding back on spares and hardly any indy is going to have them, so they will service with a compromise.

Anyone who owns an old Omega has a moral duty to give it the best care possible and that means taking it to Omega.

[Hood]

Grow up and try to be original, that old pic has been going around for yonks and posting it is a bit childish to say the least.

Omega are holding back on spares and hardly any indy is going to have them, so they will service with a compromise.

Anyone who owns an old Omega has a moral duty to give it the best care possible and that means taking it to Omega.

Total garbage and an insult to watchmakers up and down the country and self righteous pis*.
Are you saying Rocco at Watchworks is incapable of servicing an old Omega?

[Mick P]

Total garbage and an insult to watchmakers up and down the country and self righteous pis*.
Are you saying Rocco at Watchworks is incapable of servicing an old Omega?

I am saying that if I owned an old Omega, I would give it the best treatment I could and that means taking it to Omega.

[Hood]

I am saying that if I owned an old Omega, I would give it the best treatment I could and that means taking it to Omega.

No
You said taking an Omega to an Indy is a dereliction of duty.

[Padders]

Define what is meant by a recent service.

Old Omegas should be serviced by Omega and no one else.

My old boss took his fathers 1950s Seamaster to Omega for a service and they made a wonderful job of it. Taking it to an indy is dereliction of duty.

This is absolute crap. Dangerous advice even. Send a vintage piece to Omega and be prepared to have hands and dial replaced and the case polished. To restore water resistance (part of the warranty) they will also replace crowns and pushers. Swatch Southampton (OSC) are not receptive to sensitively keeping a vintage piece vintage, Bienne do a better job but not Southampton. It is a sure fire way to destroy the character and value in an older piece. It is also eye wateringly expensive. Swiss Time Services or Simon Freese are the go to people for older Omegas in the UK. There are of course other independents who will also do a perfectly good job. You really have no idea what you are talking about on this. Independents can have access to parts, they just need to be authorised independents.

[sean]

Old Omegas should be serviced by Omega and no one else.

Anyone who owns an old Omega has a moral duty to give it the best care possible and that means taking it to Omega.

I am saying that if I owned an old Omega, I would give it the best treatment I could and that means taking it to Omega.

https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...eptable-RESULT

[Mick P]

No
You said taking an Omega to an Indy is a dereliction of duty.

Yes because it is not the best possible care.

The reason why I slap any second hand watch in for a service by Rolex immediately after buying it is that I want the best treatment for it. The others may be good, but they are not as good as the OEM.

[Mick P]

This is absolute crap. Dangerous advice even. Send a vintage piece to Omega and be prepared to have hands and dial replaced and the case polished. To restore water resistance (part of the warranty) they will also replace crowns and pushers. Swatch Southampton (OSC) are not receptive to sensitively keeping a vintage piece vintage, Bienne do a better job but not Southampton. It is a sure fire way to destroy the character and value in an older piece. It is also eye wateringly expensive. Swiss Time Services or Simon Freese are the go to people for older Omegas in the UK. There are of course other independents who will also do a perfectly good job. You really have no idea what you are talking about on this. Independents can have access to parts, they just need to be authorised independents.

I am not talking about authorised indies who are vetted and constantly checked, I am talking about someone who has no connection with Omega or Rolex etc. Going to them is not as good as going to the OEM.

[trident-7]

Or maybe I prefer things to be accurately described ?

10 seconds per day is spot on in many peoples' eyes. You didn't ask the right question.

[ped]

I am not talking about authorised indies who are vetted and constantly checked, I am talking about someone who has no connection with Omega or Rolex etc.

Make your mind up

[Mick P]

Make your mind up

I use a Rolex AD with a Rolex accredited workshop and sometimes St James. Both are Rolex, is that so hard to understand. These are not Joe Blogs down the street who does not have access to OEM parts.

[seadog1408]

I use a Rolex AD with a Rolex accredited workshop and sometimes St James. Both are Rolex, is that so hard to understand. These are not Joe Blogs down the street who does not have access to OEM parts.

​MUCHO CODSWALLOPO.

[snowman]

Taking an earlier analogy, if I buy a Ferrari F40 and find it only a fraction of a second faster than my Golf Estate to 60, can I ask for a partial refund?

M

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[ped]

I use a Rolex AD with a Rolex accredited workshop and sometimes St James. Both are Rolex, is that so hard to understand. These are not Joe Blogs down the street who does not have access to OEM parts.

You make everything you write hard to understand. Enjoy your Rolex, I bet everyone loves hearing about it.

[village]

Define what is meant by a recent service.

Old Omegas should be serviced by Omega and no one else.

My old boss took his fathers 1950s Seamaster to Omega for a service and they made a wonderful job of it. Taking it to an indy is dereliction of duty.

That is the biggest load of rubbish I've read since Andyg last posted.

[Hood]

I am not talking about authorised indies who are vetted and constantly checked, I am talking about someone who has no connection with Omega or Rolex etc. Going to them is not as good as going to the OEM.

As usual Mick you make some grandiose statement which is total guff and then backtrack spouting crap along the way.
It might be better giving an opinion instead of stating your self perceived facts.
Can an old dog learn new tricks?

[bokbok]

I think your expectations was way too high "a few seconds + / - " that's superlative territory on a 50 year old watch

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