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Thread: Not safe as a seller receiving Paypal....i lost both watch, money and confidence....

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by emstudio View Post
    Yss i am in Singapore. I use Singapore Post which is the equivalent of Royal Mail. with tracking. Singapore Post tracking does it job with the tracking that both the RM and Singpost.com site did register that the parcel have been delivered and accounted for in both the web site tracking. The issue now is that buyer claimed the person collected the parcel is not him which i have no doubt with all this while nor the future. If buyer is unable to track down the theft together with the cooperation with the Police at the crime scene. there is no way Singapore Post or insurance company, may miles away, is able to do so
    OP, if you have not already done so, you need to open a case with Singpost, you are their client and they will have more chance of getting info from RM than you or the buyer. If you sent via speedpost, its covered for upto S$150, but the point is Singpost will have the best chance of getting more info on this delivery/collection from RM.

    You do not need to fly over to UK to launch a case with RM, as you are not their direct customer.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onelasttime View Post
    None of this is about insuring the package. The watch reached its destination according to Royal Mail and the online tracker. Unfortunately that destination appears to not be the buyer, it was someone posing as the buyer, although even this is subject to conjecture. Insurance would not pay out as it shows as having being delivered.

    What does confuse me is that PayPal and the CC company have agreed that it didn't reach its destination based entirely on the word of the buyer and not the online evidence stating otherwise.

    Is the buyer telling the truth? Does the buyer live in flats with dodgy tenants? Did the postie nick it? A total mess and the only loser is the seller.
    I now suspect you are a retired Postman Pat. That is a very accurate summation.

    The RM got a signature, the GPS will confirm to within a few feet where the parcel was signed for and unfortunately the only loser is the seller.

  3. #53
    Craftsman woodacre1983's Avatar
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    CCTV Is your only option! RM do not always follow their rules. This week alone I have picked up a parcel addressed to my wife sent RMSD with no card and no need for ID.
    Many times I can pick up with only the card and no need for ID.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryip88 View Post
    OP, if you have not already done so, you need to open a case with Singpost, you are their client and they will have more chance of getting info from RM than you or the buyer. If you sent via speedpost, its covered for upto S$150, but the point is Singpost will have the best chance of getting more info on this delivery/collection from RM.

    You do not need to fly over to UK to launch a case with RM, as you are not their direct customer.
    This.

    And rather than alienating the buyer, enlist his help with providing proof that it wasn't him who signed for the package.

  5. #55
    I have tried, but Singpost went online to only re confirmed that it has been delivered.

  6. #56
    In Singapore, when I head down to collect parcel from overseas. I will need to provide my ID card and the postal staff will have to pen down on my 7 digital ID number on the collection card and I have to sign for the parcel. Do RM work the same way?

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by emstudio View Post
    I have tried, but Singpost went online to only re confirmed that it has been delivered.
    That is their standard reply and hope that you will go away. The point to make to them is that it's not whether it was delivered or not, but it was wrongly delivered, then they may look into for evidence of delivery. I had a something similar situation, but not with an item of value with HK Post to UK Address. Outcome it was delivered to the wrong address but they tracked it back and eventually made the correct delivery. They never provided any explanation.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by emstudio View Post
    In Singapore, when I head down to collect parcel from overseas. I will need to provide my ID card and the postal staff will have to pen down on my 7 digital ID number on the collection card and I have to sign for the parcel. Do RM work the same way?
    According to their rules, it should. However, as evidenced by at least three posters (myself included) on this thread and the thread started by the buyer, they aren't always bothered to follow the rules.

    Your only hope is to kick a big enough fuss that Singapore Post/Royal Mail will start an investigation that will show that either the parcel was handed to the wrong person through Royal Mail's negligence or your buyer is lying (in which case you may have some recourse with Paypal)

  9. #59
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    How about the buyer reports it to the police and seeks a crime number?

    At the end of the day this was technically an item belonging to the buyer that has apparently been stolen seemingly from his address and with his ID - it is a crime!

    I know the buyer has been refunded but firstly I would still be very uncomfortable knowing that had happened to an item sent to me and it would also give the seller something to provide his postal service with to then request they hold RM to account which seems fair.

  10. #60
    Journeyman ChromeJob's Avatar
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    Not safe as a seller receiving Paypal....i lost both watch, money and confidence....



    I hate to be a “next day quarterback” but this is an illustration of why when shipping internationally, you use a single, international carrier (e.g. DHL, FedEx?). Insurance with signature delivery, of course, because this puts the onus on the carrier to either prove it was delivered to the correct party and not just someone at some address, or pay out the insured amount.

    [Addendum: in the US you can opt for “delivery confirmation” or actual “signature delivery.” I prefer teh latter. It’s up to the carrier to confirm the person signing for the item is the correct party. If the signature is falsified, that’s evidence of a theft IMHO.]

    Yes, this costs more. Guess what? You get your money’s worth if something goes awry.

    OP, you need to press with your local carrier for investigation. Get the buyer to send you a notarized written statement that the package was not delivered, with details. A police report of theft will also aid in your inquiry. Bawling on a watch forum does nothing, no one on this forum has any authority to further an investigation for you. Unfortunately, you as seller chose your shipping method and protection (or lack thereof), so it’s your accountability. Be an adult and recognize that, and do the needful.

    All we can do is offer you a kerchief and a spank on the bottom.
    ____________

    To the Buyer ... yeah, you got your money back, but you could press the case with the local law enforcement, if only to get a case # assigned that you can provide to the seller. (If I was the seller, I wouldnt’ believe you with any less, when the carriers show a successful acceptance by the addressee.) It would show that you made the effort, and also reinforce that you are being honest. (In many places, making a false complaint of a crime is a crime in itself.)
    Last edited by ChromeJob; 5th December 2018 at 20:37.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegreatdogwood View Post

    At the end of the day this was technically an item belonging to the buyer that has apparently been stolen seemingly from his address and with his ID - it is a crime!
    Unless someone can prove the buyer was involved in fraud or actually has the item - the item still belongs to the seller and the fraud was against him.

    You cannot 'technically' own an item you either do or you don't. All the buyer currently has is an unfilled contract and a payment for an item they don't have.

    That sucks for the buyer but that is what it is.

  12. #62
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    The Seller has very little option without help from the Buyer. The Buyer, although has no legal obligation to help the Seller, has a moral obligation to do so.

    Since RM will not just cooperate with any civilian asking to see the CCTV footage, the only way this will get investigated/resolved is if UK Police is involved. That means the Buyer needs to report the matter to the police and get a case number and help the Seller pursue it. It is the right thing to do.

    In the mean time, the buyer is still within his rights to try to get his money back using methods available to him, he is a victim in this case as well.

    I agreed with the other members and the Seller regarding insurance. It is irrelevant in this case even if the watch was insured, they will never pay out on a case like this given the available information.

  13. #63
    Craftsman woodacre1983's Avatar
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    Could the buyer not use a DSAR (data subject access request) in order to obtain the CCTV showed ‘them’ signing for the parcel? At which point they can point out its not them? I know DSAR works with recorded calls. Not sure if it’s transferable to CCTV?


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  14. #64
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    Presumably the signature obtained by RM isn't Deckard81's. If he confirms this, RM's 'proof of delivery' defense vanishes, surely?

    Maybe that was sufficient to convince the CC company to refund, and could be useful information for the OP too?

  15. #65
    If I was the seller I would also go back to Paypal and point out that you have seller protection under their own terms.




    "9.2 Scope of Protection. PayPal will protect you for the full amount of the eligible payment and waive the Chargeback Fee, if applicable.



    9.3 Eligibility Requirements. To be eligible for PayPal Seller Protection, you must meet all of the basic requirements listed below under (a) Basic Requirements. To be covered for Item Not Received protection you must meet both the Basic Requirements and the Item Not Received Additional Requirements listed below under (b). To be covered for Unauthorized Transactions protection you must meet both the Basic Requirements and the Unauthorized Transactions Additional Requirements listed below under (c)

    a. Basic Requirements:

    You must ship the item to the shipping address on the Transaction Details Page.
    You must respond to PayPal's requests for documentation and other information in a timely manner.
    The item must be a physical, tangible good that can be shipped.
    You must accept payment from one PayPal account for the purchase (partial payment and/or payment in installments are excluded).
    b. Item Not Received Additional Requirements:

    The payment must be marked "eligible" or "partially eligible" for PayPal Seller Protection on the Transaction Details Page.
    You must have a Proof of Delivery as described below in Section 9.4.
    You must ship the item within 7 Days of receipt of payment. Or, if the payment is for pre-ordered or made-to-order goods, shipment is required within the timeframe specified in your item listing.
    c. Unauthorized Transactions Additional Requirements:

    The payment must be marked "eligible" for PayPal Seller Protection on the Transaction Details Page.
    You must have a Proof of Shipment or a Proof of Delivery as described below in Section 9.4.


    9.4 Proof of Shipment, Proof of Delivery, and Signature Confirmation Requirements:

    "Proof of Shipment" is online or physical documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following:

    The date the item is shipped.
    The recipient's address, showing at least the city/state or postal code (or international equivalent).
    "Proof of Delivery (for tangible items)" is online documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following:

    The date the item is delivered.
    The recipient's address, showing at least the city/state or postal code (or international equivalent).
    Signature Confirmation as described below for payments of $750 USD or more (or the following equivalents), save for Sellers having a PayPal Account registered in Albania, Andorra, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, and Ukraine to whom such requirement won’t apply):

    "Signature Confirmation" is online documentation that can be viewed at the shipping company's website and indicates that the item was signed for on delivery.

    “Proof of Delivery (for intangible or virtual items or services)” means any compelling evidence to show the purchase order was fulfilled and includes all of the following:

    a. The date the item or service was provided;

    b. The recipient’s address (email/IP, etc) where applicable."


    As I understand it the buyer raised a Paypal issue under the 'Item was not as described'. Why he did this I do not know as he is actually claiming it was not received, perhaps he will tell us.

    Paypal will not give seller protection against this type of claim.



    "9.5 Items/Transactions not Eligible for PayPal Seller Protection.

    The following are examples of items/transactions not eligible for PayPal Seller Protection:

    Claims or Chargebacks for Significantly Not as Described."



    It may be that it is in the Paypal system as a 'not as described' item.

    As far as 'not received' is concerned the seller seems to have a cast iron case against Paypal.



    Mitch

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodacre1983 View Post
    signing for the parcel?
    Was it signed for? I thought it was just a wave the red slip and out comes the parcel job?

    Edit: from other thread - "Royal Mail claim that it was collected from the local post office showing the “sorry we missed you card” that was left at my property together with a form of ID." No claim of having buyer's signature.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by sean View Post
    Presumably the signature obtained by RM isn't Deckard81's. If he confirms this, RM's 'proof of delivery' defense vanishes, surely?

    Maybe that was sufficient to convince the CC company to refund, and could be useful information for the OP too?
    Quote Originally Posted by Der Amf View Post
    Was it signed for? I thought it was just a wave the red slip and out comes the parcel job?
    And this is why I usually refrain from 'adding my two cents' to these threads! Not worth even that... :)

  18. #68
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    I don't know about anyone else but I've picked up loads of parcels from the sorting office without bothering to show ID.

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Der Amf View Post
    Was it signed for? I thought it was just a wave the red slip and out comes the parcel job?

    Edit: from other thread - "Royal Mail claim that it was collected from the local post office showing the “sorry we missed you card” that was left at my property together with a form of ID." No claim of having buyer's signature.
    It was signed for, a copy of the signature is on line.

    This case seems to meet all Paypal's terms and conditions for seller protection, I would contact them and ask why it is not being covered and what aspect of their terms has not been satisfied.

    I think they may still be treating it as a 'not as described' case, which is how it was raised by the buyer for an inexplicable reason. Though perhaps he was familiar with Paypal's terms and feared a failure of his claim under 'not received'.



    Mitch

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch View Post

    I think they may still be treating it as a 'not as described' case, which is how it was raised by the buyer for an inexplicable reason.

    Mitch
    Would be interested to hear what the buyer has to say on the 'not as described' claim.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lampoc View Post
    I don't know about anyone else but I've picked up loads of parcels from the sorting office without bothering to show ID.
    Perhaps you’ve pickd up so many that they know who you are?

    I pick a few up and I’ve always been asked for ID, no ID no parcel!

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Amf View Post
    Was it signed for? I thought it was just a wave the red slip and out comes the parcel job?

    Edit: from other thread - "Royal Mail claim that it was collected from the local post office showing the “sorry we missed you card” that was left at my property together with a form of ID." No claim of having buyer's signature.
    Bet a neighbor has picked it up - I’m an optimist at heart - so hopefully for all concerned it will turn up once they realise it’s not a parcel for them. There are still good people in the world.

  23. #73
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    Hi All,
    I’ve just seen this.
    FYI can you all remove my personal details, name and address for the thread please?
    It’s on the open part of the forum.
    Everything Linus has posted is factually correct. The only part that he didn’t mentioned is that I did raise a complaint with Royal Mail, as he suggested, and that I’ve never told my CC company that the parcel arrived but was not “as described”, but I believe that the CC company might have said that to PayPal. I did ring the police but they were not interested.
    I really feel for the OP but at the same time I don’t think I should be out of pocket for a parcel that I’ve never received and for a watch that I’ve never inspected and will never be able to see or wear.
    I’ve bookmarked the thread and if any of you has any questions, I’ll be happy to answer them.

  24. #74
    So someone has managed to get the red card from the buyers house and provide the correct ID to get the parcel really??? Wow thats spooky,or could it be a bent postman and a mate who got lucky with the parcel they chose.Could even bring the buyers story into question,wow! complex case tough, to prove/sort out

  25. #75
    Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter2704 View Post
    Could even bring the buyers story into question
    What are your grounds for doing that?

  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deckard81 View Post
    Hi All,
    I’ve just seen this.
    FYI can you all remove my personal details, name and address for the thread please?
    It’s on the open part of the forum.
    Everything Linus has posted is factually correct. The only part that he didn’t mentioned is that I did raise a complaint with Royal Mail, as he suggested, and that I’ve never told my CC company that the parcel arrived but was not “as described”, but I believe that the CC company might have said that to PayPal. I did ring the police but they were not interested.
    I really feel for the OP but at the same time I don’t think I should be out of pocket for a parcel that I’ve never received and for a watch that I’ve never inspected and will never be able to see or wear.
    I’ve bookmarked the thread and if any of you has any questions, I’ll be happy to answer them.


    I don't think you have anything to answer to Deckard, I have dealt with you in the past and I'm sure dozens of members on here will echo the sentiment that you're a "stand-up guy".

    This is a crappy situation, especially for the value and especially at this time of year. While I appreciate the fact that the OP seems to have fallen into a scummy Royal Mail loophole (negligence that they neglect to admit to!) and might have to take this one on the chin, I am putting myself in his shoes and it's not a nice feeling.


    It might be out of order to suggest it, but I'm going to offer £20 to the OP's paypal and if anyone would like to join me to soften the blow a little bit then please do so. £20 won't hurt me and probably won't benefit emstudio much to be fair, but if a few of us did the same then emstudio might not be feeling the pressure quite as much.
    No pressure, but he's a long-standing member of the forum and despite the mistrust and back-biting that has crept in the last few years, as far as I'm concerned this is still a close-knit watch community of friends and like-minded collectors.

    emstudio, please PM your paypal address.

    If you get some joy out of Royal Mail then I would like to think that you would pay-it-forward or chuck the difference in the fundraiser. I wish you the best of luck, I can put myself in your shoes and a £1000 hit would be absolutely gut-wrenching for me.

  27. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Der Amf View Post
    What are your grounds for doing that?
    Looking from the outside in,not having a pop at the buyer/seller just all the possible scenarios.And why it will probably not get solved,I hope it does

  28. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deckard81 View Post
    Hi All,
    I’ve just seen this.
    FYI can you all remove my personal details, name and address for the thread please?
    It’s on the open part of the forum.
    Everything Linus has posted is factually correct. The only part that he didn’t mentioned is that I did raise a complaint with Royal Mail, as he suggested, and that I’ve never told my CC company that the parcel arrived but was not “as described”, but I believe that the CC company might have said that to PayPal. I did ring the police but they were not interested.
    I really feel for the OP but at the same time I don’t think I should be out of pocket for a parcel that I’ve never received and for a watch that I’ve never inspected and will never be able to see or wear.
    I’ve bookmarked the thread and if any of you has any questions, I’ll be happy to answer them.
    OK, accepting your points, do you feel you've done everything possible to resolve this?

    Did you knock on a few doors locally and ask a few questions?

    Did you press the point with the Police.........this is fraud and I don`t see how they've got the option to NOT be interested!

    Have you continued to push the case with Royal Mail? I don`t mean the odd phone call, written letters still carry more weight thesedays and it doesn`t take much effort to do this. Likewise with the Police, put it in writing!

    This incident happened a few months back, did you consider sharing full details of the watch? if this watch has been resold which is likely, it has resurfaced somewhere! I`ve had one look at the picture posted and I`d be fairly sure I could spot this watch, look for the characteristic ageing signs on the dial! If this watch had surfaced for sale that would've provided a trail back to the fraudster.

    It's a bad situation for everyone involved, but given the sellers geographical location it seems only right that all efforts should've been extended to reach a better outcome. I agree, you've done nothing wrong, but perhaps there's more that could've been done to track down the watch. Perhaps I`m being harsh, but judging from the comments on your earlier thread your prime objective was to recover your money with little thought to recovering the watch. I don`t know your location, but if I`d been in your shoes I would've been doing the rounds of the local pawn shops, second-hand shops, markets etc. together with monitoring ebay and gumtree closely. Armed with the right info at the right time I`m sure folks on this forum would've been only too willing to lend a hand. Someone's impersonated YOU, the fraud has been committed against you, not the seller, but he's ended up as the victim.

    I think too much water's now gone under the bridge, this needed chasing with vigour a few months ago.

    In future, any watch I post out will be photographed in detail, with serial numbers recorded etc. That's one lesson I`ve learned from this.

  29. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    OK, accepting your points, do you feel you've done everything possible to resolve this?

    Did you knock on a few doors locally and ask a few questions?

    Did you press the point with the Police.........this is fraud and I don`t see how they've got the option to NOT be interested!

    Have you continued to push the case with Royal Mail? I don`t mean the odd phone call, written letters still carry more weight thesedays and it doesn`t take much effort to do this. Likewise with the Police, put it in writing!

    This incident happened a few months back, did you consider sharing full details of the watch? if this watch has been resold which is likely, it has resurfaced somewhere! I`ve had one look at the picture posted and I`d be fairly sure I could spot this watch, look for the characteristic ageing signs on the dial! If this watch had surfaced for sale that would've provided a trail back to the fraudster.

    It's a bad situation for everyone involved, but given the sellers geographical location it seems only right that all efforts should've been extended to reach a better outcome. I agree, you've done nothing wrong, but perhaps there's more that could've been done to track down the watch. Perhaps I`m being harsh, but judging from the comments on your earlier thread your prime objective was to recover your money with little thought to recovering the watch. I don`t know your location, but if I`d been in your shoes I would've been doing the rounds of the local pawn shops, second-hand shops, markets etc. together with monitoring ebay and gumtree closely. Armed with the right info at the right time I`m sure folks on this forum would've been only too willing to lend a hand. Someone's impersonated YOU, the fraud has been committed against you, not the seller, but he's ended up as the victim.

    I think too much water's now gone under the bridge, this needed chasing with vigour a few months ago.

    In future, any watch I post out will be photographed in detail, with serial numbers recorded etc. That's one lesson I`ve learned from this.
    Have I done everything I could? No.
    I could have quit my job and look for the missing vintage omega like a Templar in search of the holy grail, but I didn’t.
    I could have knock on all the doors of the village asking “have you stolen my watch?” But I didn’t.
    I could have chained myself to the post office demanding to see the CCTV and the same to the local police station.
    I didn’t.
    I called RM and placed a complaint; I called the police and they were not interested. I’ve kept Linus informed all the way through. Once I thought I had exhausted all possibilities to recover the parcel, given that Linus was not interested to take responsibility, I realised that I was in the fortunate position to be able to claim via my CC company and so I did.
    I’ve asked someone else in the forum, just to get an opinion, if he thought it was likely for the seller, Linus, to be “charged” by PayPal, and he thought he was unlikely.
    I’ve asked the forum their opinion on my own H&V post and I’ve kept the seller anonymous.
    Not good enough? I’m sorry to disappoint you or anyone else.

  30. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by boring_sandwich View Post
    Would be interested to hear what the buyer has to say on the 'not as described' claim.
    I never did claim it as “not as described”. I know you didn’t actually get to meet me, but we spoke on the phone. Do you reckon I would have engineered 2000 posts on TZ to get a watch for £776?

  31. #81
    Fwiw, about 8 years ago, when I had an empty parcel turn up via RMSD, I tried to lodge a police complaint to get a crime reference number. The 'civilian' police officer who was later back by a PC told me the police don't issue crime reference numbers for royal mail because RM 'is the Queen's mail and they have their own investigations team....we cannot give you a crime ref number. Sorry'. All I needed was a crime reference number and PayPal would pay out. Eventually I logged a call with the police to call me back, I explained the situation, they gave me a call log number. Which may or may not have been a crime reference number. I gave that to PayPal who duly refunded me. The seller was a fraudster and may he rot in hell.

  32. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by RustyBin5 View Post
    Bet a neighbor has picked it up - I’m an optimist at heart - so hopefully for all concerned it will turn up once they realise it’s not a parcel for them. There are still good people in the world.
    You’re certainly an optimist mate, perhaps the neighbour has been plucking up the courage to bring it round since JULY haha


    It’s quite scary to think you can actually sell a watch and the buyer could sign for it and even then say they didn’t get it!

    Everyone is taking the buyers word here (which we’d all hope is gospel) but it just doesn’t make much sense that RM can ‘prove’ it was delivered to the buyer yet the the buyer can claim against the seller that it didn’t turn up! Worrying for anyone selling.

  33. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by jameswrx View Post
    You’re certainly an optimist mate, perhaps the neighbour has been plucking up the courage to bring it round since JULY haha


    It’s quite scary to think you can actually sell a watch and the buyer could sign for it and even then say they didn’t get it!

    Everyone is taking the buyers word here (which we’d all hope is gospel) but it just doesn’t make much sense that RM can ‘prove’ it was delivered to the buyer yet the the buyer can claim against the seller that it didn’t turn up! Worrying for anyone selling.
    Given that I must have sent thousands of pounds before receiving any watch and that I can remember at least 2 occasions of having given watches prior to receiving any cash, a rose gold reverso and a Patek ellipse, I would have thought my word did count for something.
    I did not sign for anything.

  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deckard81 View Post
    Have I done everything I could? No.
    I could have quit my job and look for the missing vintage omega like a Templar in search of the holy grail, but I didn’t.
    I could have knock on all the doors of the village asking “have you stolen my watch?” But I didn’t.
    I could have chained myself to the post office demanding to see the CCTV and the same to the local police station.
    I didn’t.
    I called RM and placed a complaint; I called the police and they were not interested. I’ve kept Linus informed all the way through. Once I thought I had exhausted all possibilities to recover the parcel, given that Linus was not interested to take responsibility, I realised that I was in the fortunate position to be able to claim via my CC company and so I did.
    I’ve asked someone else in the forum, just to get an opinion, if he thought it was likely for the seller, Linus, to be “charged” by PayPal, and he thought he was unlikely.
    I’ve asked the forum their opinion on my own H&V post and I’ve kept the seller anonymous.
    Not good enough? I’m sorry to disappoint you or anyone else.
    You’ve done nothing wrong.
    It’s simple as that.

  35. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deckard81 View Post
    Given that I must have sent thousands of pounds before receiving any watch and that I can remember at least 2 occasions of having given watches prior to receiving any cash, a rose gold reverso and a Patek ellipse, I would have thought my word did count for something.
    I did not sign for anything.
    Yes, no doubt your word is good going by others chipping in I’m sure.

    It was more a reflection of what can actually be achieved, this situation is there to be seriously exploited by the sounds of it and concerns the heck out of me as far as sending goes.

    And people preaching “insurance” it wouldn’t help in this situation.

    Mind you, IF a RM employee stole it the lack of insurance May have been a deciding factor in them doing so. I’d imagine there’s a lower investigation level when something isn’t insured. Having had a watch stolen by DHL that the seller didn’t insure I’m certain the DHL employee who stole it did so because of it being an uninsured watch. And going by their investigation I’d say that’s about right.

  36. #86
    I really don’t see how deckard can be blamed in anyway,we’ve all got busy lives to lead so complaining to multiple companies isn’t going to happen,if it had been a new member with no feedback then you could possibly think the worst.
    Having met gab I can 100% say he’s not trying it on


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  37. #87
    Master RustyBin5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jameswrx View Post
    You’re certainly an optimist mate, perhaps the neighbour has been plucking up the courage to bring it round since JULY haha


    It’s quite scary to think you can actually sell a watch and the buyer could sign for it and even then say they didn’t get it!

    Everyone is taking the buyers word here (which we’d all hope is gospel) but it just doesn’t make much sense that RM can ‘prove’ it was delivered to the buyer yet the the buyer can claim against the seller that it didn’t turn up! Worrying for anyone selling.
    Apologies. Never realized it was July.

    Re the RM “checking ID”. In my experience a flash of any old photo card gets no more than a cursory glance from the staff. I was even told once as I dug out my wallet to.show my driving license “nah it’s fine don’t bother” - guess he wanted to get off his shift. RM negligence it sounds like. Shame tho.

  38. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by mk1974 View Post
    I really don’t see how deckard can be blamed in anyway,we’ve all got busy lives to lead so complaining to multiple companies isn’t going to happen,if it had been a new member with no feedback then you could possibly think the worst.
    Having met gab I can 100% say he’s not trying it on


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Not much consolation for the seller!

    If I’d have been in Deckard’s shoes I would’ve pursued it as a matter of principle. I wouldn’t like to think someone in my neighbourhood had impersonated me to commit fraud, that’s what’s happened in this case.

    Deckard’s sarcastic reply to the points I raised says enough for me; OK, technically he’s not at fault, but having found himself in this situation he could’ve handled it differently. I’m not questioning his honesty, but in my opinion he could’ve done more as a matter of principle.

    He’s got his money back so he’s OK........yeah, we all lead busy lives.

  39. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
    If I was the seller I would also go back to Paypal and point out that you have seller protection under their own terms.




    "9.2 Scope of Protection. PayPal will protect you for the full amount of the eligible payment and waive the Chargeback Fee, if applicable.



    9.3 Eligibility Requirements. To be eligible for PayPal Seller Protection, you must meet all of the basic requirements listed below under (a) Basic Requirements. To be covered for Item Not Received protection you must meet both the Basic Requirements and the Item Not Received Additional Requirements listed below under (b). To be covered for Unauthorized Transactions protection you must meet both the Basic Requirements and the Unauthorized Transactions Additional Requirements listed below under (c)

    a. Basic Requirements:

    You must ship the item to the shipping address on the Transaction Details Page.
    You must respond to PayPal's requests for documentation and other information in a timely manner.
    The item must be a physical, tangible good that can be shipped.
    You must accept payment from one PayPal account for the purchase (partial payment and/or payment in installments are excluded).
    b. Item Not Received Additional Requirements:

    The payment must be marked "eligible" or "partially eligible" for PayPal Seller Protection on the Transaction Details Page.
    You must have a Proof of Delivery as described below in Section 9.4.
    You must ship the item within 7 Days of receipt of payment. Or, if the payment is for pre-ordered or made-to-order goods, shipment is required within the timeframe specified in your item listing.
    c. Unauthorized Transactions Additional Requirements:

    The payment must be marked "eligible" for PayPal Seller Protection on the Transaction Details Page.
    You must have a Proof of Shipment or a Proof of Delivery as described below in Section 9.4.


    9.4 Proof of Shipment, Proof of Delivery, and Signature Confirmation Requirements:

    "Proof of Shipment" is online or physical documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following:

    The date the item is shipped.
    The recipient's address, showing at least the city/state or postal code (or international equivalent).
    "Proof of Delivery (for tangible items)" is online documentation from a shipping company that includes all of the following:

    The date the item is delivered.
    The recipient's address, showing at least the city/state or postal code (or international equivalent).
    Signature Confirmation as described below for payments of $750 USD or more (or the following equivalents), save for Sellers having a PayPal Account registered in Albania, Andorra, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, and Ukraine to whom such requirement won’t apply):

    "Signature Confirmation" is online documentation that can be viewed at the shipping company's website and indicates that the item was signed for on delivery.

    “Proof of Delivery (for intangible or virtual items or services)” means any compelling evidence to show the purchase order was fulfilled and includes all of the following:

    a. The date the item or service was provided;

    b. The recipient’s address (email/IP, etc) where applicable."


    As I understand it the buyer raised a Paypal issue under the 'Item was not as described'. Why he did this I do not know as he is actually claiming it was not received, perhaps he will tell us.

    Paypal will not give seller protection against this type of claim.



    "9.5 Items/Transactions not Eligible for PayPal Seller Protection.

    The following are examples of items/transactions not eligible for PayPal Seller Protection:

    Claims or Chargebacks for Significantly Not as Described."



    It may be that it is in the Paypal system as a 'not as described' item.

    As far as 'not received' is concerned the seller seems to have a cast iron case against Paypal.



    Mitch


    Thanks again Mitch. I just got off the line with paypal after 20 mins. And yes the paypal staff did mention your last part (not received) or rather your entire findings. Is a straight no claim case with buyer. She goes on to say that as paypal tie up with visa, mastercard, credit cards companies, they have their own agreements, normally at seller's expense as with this current case.

    Now I know why this comes about. The buyer disputed the £776.00 charge for the following reason: Item not as described.

    If it not as described, then just send back to me and I gladly refund back.

    Clever. As the tracking and documents I can easily provide together with the photo of the parcel at the post office with buyer address before sending out taken is still with me.

    Anyway, I didn't doubt buyer's integrity and I am sure of his frustration. I have not received any police report statement and any form of documents with RM.

    Thank you for your very kind intention Kevkojak!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkojak
    It might be out of order to suggest it, but I'm going to offer £20 to the OP's paypal and if anyone would like to join me to soften the blow a little bit then please do so. £20 won't hurt me and probably won't benefit emstudio much to be fair, but if a few of us did the same then emstudio might not be feeling the pressure quite as much.
    No pressure, but he's a long-standing member of the forum and despite the mistrust and back-biting that has crept in the last few years, as far as I'm concerned this is still a close-knit watch community of friends and like-minded collectors.

    emstudio, please PM your paypal address.
    No, I can't accept this from you or any of you guys here, especially this Christmas season, the family will need the funds more for their presents and trips.... I rather the coffer of goodwill and kindness goes to the Fundraiser.


    I can at this point of time suggest to the buyer of a 50-50 share of lost....and move on.... Have a good and safe holiday all.

  40. #90
    Proof of RM delivery ��
    Last edited by emstudio; Yesterday at 21:55. Reason: As requested to remove buyer’s info.

  41. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by jameswrx View Post
    ... Everyone is taking the buyers word here (which we’d all hope is gospel) but it just doesn’t make much sense that RM can ‘prove’ it was delivered to the buyer yet the the buyer can claim against the seller that it didn’t turn up! Worrying for anyone selling.
    I've experienced such a situation first hand here in the US. A prior GF ordered me a DVD set off eBay for Christmas. It was sent to her address, insured, with delivery confirmation. The postal carrier marked it delivered, but it never showed up in her apt package lockbox (and was not left with the apartment management office). She had to press the issue with eBay/Paypal that she had not received the shipment, and her USPS branch was little help in confirming the issue. They simply said, "It was delivered, case closed." I encouraged her to open a case with the Postal Service Inspector General, but she finally got a refund, so she was "satisfied" (not happy). I'm not sure if the seller ever collected, since the USPS claimed it was properly delivered. It soured me on the US Postal Service.

    Now I use Fedex or UPS, and if the shipment is worth more than $5, I specify signature receipt. Always, unless I don't care if I lose it. As I mentioned earlier, someone falsifying my signature to receive goods illegally is a crime, I suspect it's a Federal, mail fraud crime. I tend to fall on the side of pursuing justice until the expense outweighs the cost to myself personally.

    I can see how both buyer and seller are mutually suspicious, if only a little, it's natural. But where we're at now is that the buyer has gotten a refund from his CC company, and seller has been robbed. I find Deckard81's current perspective a bit disappointing. Yes, we all have busy lives, blah blah blah. But a theft occurred, and someone on the other side of the world is impeded from effectively pressing the RM and local constabulary to investigate. Don't we all care that a forum member was ripped off by a stranger? ?:)

    BTW, I'm confused about something. Paypal told the seller that the claim was "not as described." The buyer claimed to his credit card company (NOT Paypal) that it was not delivered. Do I understand correctly? So ... wouldn't it help the seller if the buyer provided a signed statement or copies of correspondence proving that the claim was for the delivery issue? The buyer has been reimbursed, it costs little or nothing to provide this documentation, and I presume there's no risk. That would demonstrate the "forum mates" code of conduct, right?

    Just my 2p.

  42. #92
    Maybe a bit optimistic but I think the watch will turn up with the buyer before long

    There is a chance it was delivered to the wrong address and the occupier of that address picked up the parcel and only then realised the mistake had been made

    I really hope so as I really can't see why either party should be out if pocket here

  43. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montybaber View Post
    Maybe a bit optimistic but I think the watch will turn up with the buyer before long

    There is a chance it was delivered to the wrong address and the occupier of that address picked up the parcel and only then realised the mistake had been made

    I really hope so as I really can't see why either party should be out if pocket here
    I thought that too, but then found out it was back in July. I think the idea of a written letter from Deckard to EMS saying it was settled due to being not received and clarifying it is not for the reason of not as described might allow EMS to present this to Paypal and help his case somewhat. The signature is intriguing - definitely not just a squiggle, but a K. Might help narrow the search a little?

  44. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by emstudio View Post
    Thanks again Mitch. I just got off the line with paypal after 20 mins. And yes the paypal staff did mention your last part (not received) or rather your entire findings. Is a straight no claim case with buyer. She goes on to say that as paypal tie up with visa, mastercard, credit cards companies, they have their own agreements, normally at seller's expense as with this current case.

    Now I know why this comes about. The buyer disputed the £776.00 charge for the following reason: Item not as described.

    If it not as described, then just send back to me and I gladly refund back.

    Clever. As the tracking and documents I can easily provide together with the photo of the parcel at the post office with buyer address before sending out taken is still with me.

    Anyway, I didn't doubt buyer's integrity and I am sure of his frustration. I have not received any police report statement and any form of documents with RM.

    Thank you for your very kind intention Kevkojak!!



    No, I can't accept this from you or any of you guys here, especially this Christmas season, the family will need the funds more for their presents and trips.... I rather the coffer of goodwill and kindness goes to the Fundraiser.


    I can at this point of time suggest to the buyer of a 50-50 share of lost....and move on.... Have a good and safe holiday all.
    Linus,
    You did and do doubt my integrity; you are the one that stopped contacting me; you are the one that has plastered my name and address in the open part of the forum.
    You can suggest a 50/50 split and some in the forum might agree with you, but there’s no way you’ll see a penny from me after this behaviour.
    Do you understand that I’ve never received anything?
    If you had kept in touch, I would have provided you with all the statements (2) and relevant paperwork, but you didn’t.
    All I got was inconveniences; shall I also pay £388 for the privilege?
    Everyone will draw their own conclusions.

  45. #95
    You have challenged me to post on the forums if you have forgotten and when I did you are asking why I am including your name.
    My last conversation with you is simply a question of fairness I asked when you say you are proceeding with the claim through your credit card company. This is my last words in your inbox:
    So I see that you have start the paypal claim, again, this is really not fair on my end as I cannot be taking liability on the Royal mail behalf that the parcel gotten into the wrong hands. Perhaps we both can let the forums members be the jurors.

  46. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by emstudio View Post
    You have challenged me to post on the forums if you have forgotten and when I did you are asking why I am including your name.
    My last conversation with you is simply a question of fairness I asked when you say you are proceeding with the claim through your credit card company. This is my last words in your inbox:
    So I see that you have start the paypal claim, again, this is really not fair on my end as I cannot be taking liability on the Royal mail behalf that the parcel gotten into the wrong hands. Perhaps we both can let the forums members be the jurors.
    Please read your post above again. You “challenged” me, not the other way round.
    And your last message was weeks after my last message to you...

  47. #97
    And in which part have I ever doubted your integrity be it in your inbox or this thread. Did I say ever say you got someone to pick up the parcel?

    Did I ever faulted you not being at home not receiving the parcel?

    I can show all the screen shot of the paypal case file stating that ‘item not as described’ being the reason for the case to be open. Not that I make up to be. You mentioned you left it to the credit card company to pursue the matter, so I believe that it is not your idea of doing so.

    I have suggested checking on the CCTV of the post office, lodging a police report etc asking you of the outcomes during the moments before you decided to make the claim.
    I respected you for your number of posts, as a member. please do also check my ebay records.
    If majority thinks I am the one totally at fault here, please do donates the split to the charity fund.

  48. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Deckard81 View Post
    Please read your post above again. You “challenged” me, not the other way round.
    And your last message was weeks after my last message to you...
    ‘Feel free to post on the forum whatever you wish‘

  49. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by emstudio View Post
    And in which part have I ever doubted your integrity be it in your inbox or this thread. Did I say ever say you got someone to pick up the parcel?

    Did I ever faulted you not being at home not receiving the parcel?

    I can show all the screen shot of the paypal case file stating that ‘item not as described’ being the reason for the case to be open. Not that I make up to be. You mentioned you left it to the credit card company to pursue the matter, so I believe that it is not your idea of doing so.

    I have suggested checking on the CCTV of the post office, lodging a police report etc asking you of the outcomes during the moments before you decided to make the claim.
    I respected you for your number of posts, as a member. please do also check my ebay records.
    If majority thinks I am the one totally at fault here, please do donates the split to the charity fund.
    What is the point of this whole thread if not to question my integrity?
    Nobody, that I can see, said you are “at fault”; you were unfortunately a victim of circumstances.
    There is no “split” here. I’ve never received anything.
    I don’t know how many times I need to repeat this: I did lodge a complaint with Royal Mail, I can give you the reference number if you wish, and I did contact the police. In the UK, and in my opinion, this is the normal course of action.
    If things were reversed, I would have refunded the buyer and I would have been pissed off for a while, but eventually I would have just moved on without the drama in watch talk.
    Once again, please remove my personal details from your posts.

  50. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by emstudio View Post
    ‘Feel free to post on the forum whatever you wish‘
    For clarity’s sake:



    After my “what do you mean?” You simply went quiet until you received notification from PayPal that there was a problem with the transaction.

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