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Thread: Not safe as a seller receiving Paypal....i lost both watch, money and confidence....

  1. #1

    Not safe as a seller receiving Paypal....i lost both watch, money and confidence....

    Hi all, just wanted to have some justification on my recent sales here of a watch to a forum member....

    This was the sale post to begin with https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...s-Marker-watch

    The parcel eventually reached UK as I did a check with the tracking number>

    Me: Hi again Gab, I key in the tracking number RC703871748SG and tracking site is www.singpost.com shows that it arrives GB on the 19th July.

    Buyer: Hi Linus,The parcel is now showing as delivered but I haven't received anything...
    I'll give it until Monday.


    Buyer: Hi Linus, Sorry for the late reply but I'm away. Im still waiting for the internal investigation from Royal Mail. I'll give the a call on Tuesday.

    Me: Hi again Gab, just wandering how did your end go with the investigation? did you lodge a police report?

    Buyer: I'm sorry but Royal Mail is sticking to their story that someone collected the parcel with valid ID and the card that was left at my address. There's nothing more they will do therefore I'll have to claim the money back through my credit card company. I'm not sure what's going to happen at your end.

    Me: Hi Gab, I can’t be losing my watch for a planned theft.

    Me:So I see that you have start the paypal claim, again, this is really not fair on my end as I cannot be taking liability on the Royal mail behalf that the parcel gotten into the wrong hands. Perhaps we both can let the forums members be the jurors.

    Buyer: I have started a claim with my credit card company, not PayPal, but I guess they are claiming off PayPal.
    Feel free to post on the forum whatever you wish.


    and so this evening, I received this from paypal:

    We've been working with your buyer's credit card issuer to dispute your chargeback case. Unfortunately, the card issuer has decided the chargeback in the buyer's favour.We're sorry that you had this experience with your transaction. Although we can't dispute this transaction any further, we encourage you to contact your buyer directly to reach a resolution.


    I have asked buyer to do a through investigation with Royal mail as to the imposter who claimed the watch at the post office. Wasn't there any ID verification? No request to pay for extra insurance during initial shipping and any insurance company may not buy into such case of theft even if insurance were bought.

    As for the initial paypal claim, buyer has written as 'Item not as describe" to open up the case.

    So now here I am feeling lost, humiliated and poorer, I just hope that there can be some justification from the community here. Really appreciate some righteousness can still be salvage. Have a good evening gentlemen.

  2. #2
    Journeyman
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    Not related to this by any chance...

    https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...t-H-amp-V-post

  3. #3
    Surprised that the credit card found in favour of the buyer. What’s the value of RMSD etc. if buyer can simply say it wasn’t him?

  4. #4
    Master Onelasttime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald Genta View Post
    Not related to this by any chance...

    https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...t-H-amp-V-post
    Well that one was bought in October, but the OP's was sold in July? If they are two unrelated cases of the same fraud, that's quite worrying.

  5. #5
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    Why is your buyer contacting Royal Mail? The contract to deliver the parcel is between you and whichever carrier you've used to send it - you need to file a lost package claim, not the buyer.

    It's not clear from your post whether you've insured your parcel or not - but 'I haven't been told that I need additional insurance' is unlikely to hold any water.

    I'm sorry, but unless you've insured the parcel correctly, it sounds like you'll have to take it on the chin.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Surprised that the credit card found in favour of the buyer. What’s the value of RMSD etc. if buyer can simply say it wasn’t him?
    My understanding is that OP is in Singapore, so the watch wouldn't have been sent RMSD

  6. #6
    Buyer: I'm sorry but Royal Mail is sticking to their story that someone collected the parcel with valid ID and the card that was left at my address.
    I would encourage the buyer to recontact the collection office and get the details of the ID.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  7. #7
    Who is the buyer?

  8. #8
    Craftsman
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    First of all I'm sorry you've lost your watch and money-

    In my eyes as the 'seller' you should of insured the package up to it's value to cover yourself- You would have to launch an investigation with whoever you posted it with, Buyer wouldn't be able to start the claim as you were the sender.

    If it was the other way around how would you have dealt with it?

  9. #9
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    1) I am surprised it’s the buyer who had to claim from postal service as initial contract is with seller
    2) what proof can RM supply that parcel was delivered ?
    Well, everybody in Casablanca has problems. Yours may work out.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald Genta View Post
    Not related to this by any chance...

    https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...t-H-amp-V-post
    Yes, and thank you for directing me to the post which I have ran through the thread in a quick glance. and also my first time seeing the post.


    Some sided the buyer and some are pretty much rational in their jurisdiction.

    My apologies to all if my English is not good. I am a Singaporean Chinese and I try to express myself as clearly as possible, so bear with me.

    "It is easy to criticise the seller for not having insurance, but even if the seller had insured the delivery, the system would show it had been collected and signed for so the insurance wouldn’t pay out."

    That is what I am trying to voice out. This irresponsible reply from Royal Mail according to the buyer will in no way help any insurance company to make the pay out to either the buyer or myself.

    I am sorry but insurance isn't it suppose to be pick up by buyer?

    I am in Singapore please do not expect me to go flying to royal mail to make any claims from them.
    Last edited by emstudio; 5th December 2018 at 16:17.

  11. #11
    if you use that tracking number on Royal Mail's website, you can see the date and time of delivery, the name of the person who signed for it and their signature. How is that not sufficient info for paypal. Did you share those details with them?

  12. #12
    RM says the buyer received a card at their address, and someone with the buyer’s ID collected the parcel? Is that correct?

    If the above is correct, I’m not clear how PayPal or the Credit Card can find against the seller when the item appears to have been picked up by someone with not only the buyer’s ID but also the card from the buyer’s address?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by emstudio View Post

    "It is easy to criticise the seller for not having insurance, but even if the seller had insured the delivery, the system would show it had been collected and signed for so the insurance wouldn’t pay out."
    That's where you'd then need to contest the carrier's claim that the watch had reached it's intended recipient.



    Quote Originally Posted by emstudio View Post
    I am sorry but insurance isn't it suppose to be pick up by buyer?
    No!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by gcleminson View Post
    That's where you'd then need to contest the carrier's claim that the watch had reached it's intended recipient.
    As things stand, the available evidence seems to suggest that the buyer (or someone with a card from the buyer’s address and with the buyer’s ID) did collect the item.

    In light of this, I really don’t understand how PayPal and the Credit Card have found against the seller?

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by vortgern View Post
    RM says the buyer received a card at their address, and someone with the buyer’s ID collected the parcel? Is that correct?

    If the above is correct, I’m not clear how PayPal or the Credit Card can find against the seller when the item appears to have been picked up by someone with not only the buyer’s ID but also the card from the buyer’s address?
    That's what Royal Mail is claiming. Whether it's true or not (as it's already been shown on the other thread, it's entirely possible to collect packages without showing ID - in fact, I personally have in the past collected on behalf of someone having neither their ID or their red card - the guy at the sorting office saw that we had the same address and asked me if I minded taking their parcel too) is debatable.

    What's not debatable is that whatever claim needs to be filed, it needs to be filed by the sender with the postal carrier they've used.

  16. #16
    Grand Master
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    Someone's ended up with this watch and it's likely they'll sell it to make money......unless by sheer coincidence they're a vintage watch fan.

    Likely place for it to turn up for sale is ebay, or some local pawn shop. It may help to share the serial number of the movement to positively identify it if it appears.

    I`m not getting involved in the right/wrongs/who's at fault etc , I`m suggesting a constructive way forward that might produce a result. Maybe it's a slim chance but it's better than nothing, if people keep their eyes open for this watch 'appearing' somewhere they may be able to help.....but the serial number will be required and that's only on the movement, not the case. Detailed photos will also help, the watch will no doubt have marks/scratches that are like a fingerprint to aid identification.

    Was the watch addressed to the correct address? Do Royal Mail have the card that was produced? In view of the seller's geographical location and the fact he's lost his watch the buyer's morally obliged to do everything possible to resolve this, that might mean pestering Royal Mail locally.

    Whoever claimed the watch has committed fraud, no question about that. Even though there's little or no chance of them doing much it should be reported to the police and go on record.

    Best chance of a positive outcome is if the watch comes up for sale, and that's something we can all keep an eye open for.

    My sympathy is with the seller, assuming he addressed it correctly he's done nothing wrong and he's out of pocket. Insuring watches for overseas delivery isn't straightforward.

    Let's get some detailed photos shared if they're available, and let's get the serial number too.

    Paul

    Edit: Just realised the loss occurred back in July.........what I`ve suggested should've happened a few months back! This watch will turn up for sale somewhere, but it's likely that's already happened.
    Last edited by walkerwek1958; 5th December 2018 at 16:54.

  17. #17
    I think it will leave the seller out of pocket, otherwise why would it put a counterclaim?
    From my POV, I have every right to try to get my money back as I’ve never received the watch-Deckard81

    Yes indeed you have every right but what if you are the seller? I was prepare even before reading the entire thread that is all my fault.

    If I have not registered it, parcel lost, I will bear the cost but hearing buyer saying someone collected the parcel, is it really my fault?
    Insurance, Insurance, Insurance. The insurance company i casually ask is that the proof of delivery has been given by the RM, which in this case is also verified by buyer. Except that the person collecting is not legitimate, constituting a theft. The insurance company even asked if it is a insider job! The RM should have the staff verifying the ID and handling over the parcel questioned.

    We are all in this watch collection as a hobby, i do not cheat, i am only asking for a fairness for this case. i do not depend on sales to make a living, i can never be rich going this path, at least not for me. Life is short, how many decades left for me, for us. My conscience is clear, so clear that i needed to pen this unjust.


    Some will ask what if i am the buyer. This is my answer....my honest innerself. Yes i will be upset, simply of RM incompetent, the planned theft and has got nothing to do with the seller. Yes the amount is significantly big, as least to me. i didn't make any out of this transaction but a little lost even if it has been a smooth delivery.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by walkerwek1958 View Post
    My sympathy is with the seller, assuming he addressed it correctly he's done nothing wrong and he's out of pocket. Insuring watches for overseas delivery isn't straightforward.


    Paul

    Thanks Paul, indeed insurance are not straightforward, otherwise many fraudster have taken this path and to make claims after claims after claims....

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerald Genta View Post
    Not related to this by any chance...

    https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...t-H-amp-V-post
    That's the one

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by emstudio View Post
    Some will ask what if i am the buyer. This is my answer....my honest innerself. Yes i will be upset, simply of RM incompetent, the planned theft and has got nothing to do with the seller. Yes the amount is significantly big, as least to me. i didn't make any out of this transaction but a little lost even if it has been a smooth delivery.
    Can you please explain the last paragraph, as it reads like your thinking is that the buyer should have just accepted that Royal Mail lost the watch and not put in a claim, leaving him out of pocket.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by vortgern View Post
    As things stand, the available evidence seems to suggest that the buyer (or someone with a card from the buyer’s address and with the buyer’s ID) did collect the item.

    In light of this, I really don’t understand how PayPal and the Credit Card have found against the seller?
    I suppose you have not really deal with paypal much? They can really tear you apart! I have spoken to them on line with regards to this case. I am in Singapore but their call center is in Malaysia. They say they will look into it and have someone call me back in the afternoon. I was naïve enough.


    Sometime when you see their reply, you just want to vomit blood:

    Please don't reply to this email. To get in touch with us, click Help & Contact.

    and i think they uses mostly templates:

    We've been working with your buyer's credit card issuer to dispute your chargeback case. Unfortunately, the card issuer has decided the chargeback in the buyer's favour.
    For tips for selling safely, please click Security near the bottom of any PayPal page.
    Thanks for your support and understanding.

  22. #22
    Paypal tend to side with the seller if they can prove the item was delivered, which you can using the tracking details on Royal Mail's website - it even shows the name of the person who collected it "DEPROPRIS" and the signature he gave when he collected it

  23. #23
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Am I right in understanding that seller is in another country? That probably makes things even more complicated.

    In a nutshell:
    -buyer is supposed to receive the watch he paid for. Anything else he is due a refund.

    -because of the above, it is the responsibility of the seller to insure HIS watch in transit until such time it is delivered to buyer who -only then- takes ownership of the watch.

    - it is then up to seller to claim from the contracted transport company that buyer claims parcel was not delivered. And it is to transport company to refute by providing evidence delivery did happen, and that they took necessary precautions to ensure it was given to right person.

    - failing that transport company needs to refund seller for the amount insured.
    Well, everybody in Casablanca has problems. Yours may work out.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by asteclaru View Post
    Can you please explain the last paragraph, as it reads like your thinking is that the buyer should have just accepted that Royal Mail lost the watch and not put in a claim, leaving him out of pocket.
    Yes i can explain and it is what you think it is. And that is my character. Some will and some will not. Everyone character is different. Most will find doing this claim a lot more easier than going through the hassle with the police reports.
    But i will pursue royal Mail with the involvement of the police.
    I am now out of my pocket as well, if you didn't notice.
    Again i am asking for a justification. If you truly think i should be solely to be blame, what can i say? you as the juror can see better. sometime silence helped the oppressors, never the oppressed, hence i am writing this even as it turns midnight here.

  25. #25
    I agree with Paul. The seller should still hold images of the Watch that was listed for sale. Publish them here with as many details as possible inc serial number etc and we (the collective) can keep an eye out for it on the usual selling sites.

  26. #26
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    Not trying to be argumentative but lets say you bought a watch from Gnomon watches and you never received it, Stolen in transit etc.... Would you not seek a refund from Gnomon? or would you only expect half the money back or such- You are not to blame but the seller is definitely not, seller has acted like 99% of us would have.


    Quote Originally Posted by emstudio View Post
    Yes i can explain and it is what you think it is. And that is my character. Some will and some will not. Everyone character is different. Most will find doing this claim a lot more easier than going through the hassle with the police reports.
    But i will pursue royal Mail with the involvement of the police.
    I am now out of my pocket as well, if you didn't notice.
    Again i am asking for a justification. If you truly think i should be solely to be blame, what can i say? you as the juror can see better. sometime silence helped the oppressors, never the oppressed, hence i am writing this even as it turns midnight here.
    Last edited by Rob153; 5th December 2018 at 17:15.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by emstudio View Post
    Yes i can explain and it is what you think it is. And that is my character. Some will and some will not. Everyone character is different. Most will find doing this claim a lot more easier than going through the hassle with the police reports.
    But i will pursue royal Mail with the involvement of the police.
    I am now out of my pocket as well, if you didn't notice.
    Again i am asking for a justification. If you truly think i should be solely to be blame, what can i say? you as the juror can see better. sometime silence helped the oppressors, never the oppressed, hence i am writing this even as it turns midnight here.

    If we leave emotion out of the equation, then no, the buyer shouldn't have to miss out on the watch or his money because the seller failed to insure the parcel properly.

    In ANY online purchases, it is the seller's duty to ensure that the goods reach the buyer, and that's the long and the short of it.

    I wish you luck in dealing with the police/Royal Mail.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Am I right in understanding that seller is in another country? That probably makes things even more complicated.

    In a nutshell:
    -buyer is supposed to receive the watch he paid for. Anything else he is due a refund.

    -because of the above, it is the responsibility of the seller to insure HIS watch in transit until such time it is delivered to buyer who -only then- takes ownership of the watch.

    - it is then up to seller to claim from the contracted transport company that buyer claims parcel was not delivered. And it is to transport company to refute by providing evidence delivery did happen, and that they took necessary precautions to ensure it was given to right person.

    - failing that transport company needs to refund seller for the amount insured.

    Yss i am in Singapore. I use Singapore Post which is the equivalent of Royal Mail. with tracking. Singapore Post tracking does it job with the tracking that both the RM and Singpost.com site did register that the parcel have been delivered and accounted for in both the web site tracking. The issue now is that buyer claimed the person collected the parcel is not him which i have no doubt with all this while nor the future. If buyer is unable to track down the theft together with the cooperation with the Police at the crime scene. there is no way Singapore Post or insurance company, may miles away, is able to do so

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by asteclaru View Post
    If we leave emotion out of the equation, then no, the buyer shouldn't have to miss out on the watch or his money because the seller failed to insure the parcel properly.

    In ANY online purchases, it is the seller's duty to ensure that the goods reach the buyer, and that's the long and the short of it.

    I wish you luck in dealing with the police/Royal Mail.
    Seems to me that RM not at fault totally to let the exchange of ID with the parcel. Assuming insurance have been paid but insurance company blames it on RM and will not pay out, again is my fault? There is an acknowledgement of parcel exchanged with verification.


    So you sell me a watch, send to me in Singapore with Insurance and the same thing happened. Perhaps you can deal with it.


    thanks for the those who has been following on this.... really tire now....

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by asteclaru View Post
    If we leave emotion out of the equation, then no, the buyer shouldn't have to miss out on the watch or his money because the seller failed to insure the parcel properly.

    .
    The insurance company or Royal Mail would never pay out on this. The parcel was not lost, it was delivered correctly and signed for by someone with ID identifying themselves as the correct recipient.

    If they did start paying out in these circumstances, the word would get round and they would be swamped with claims.



    Mitch

  31. #31
    Master RustyBin5's Avatar
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    Finding it very hard to understand how the youwereout card could be taken to the sorting office and signed for with ID if it wasn’t the buyer. Complete unfortunate mess all round. Sad to hear, but I’d be wanting more answers re this phantom collection tbh...

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wallasey Runner View Post
    I agree with Paul. The seller should still hold images of the Watch that was listed for sale. Publish them here with as many details as possible inc serial number etc and we (the collective) can keep an eye out for it on the usual selling sites.
    This should’ve happened much earlier!......more disclosure of information from both parties would’ve helped, unfortunately all the onus has been on the paypal/recompense aspects rather than finding the watch! Buyer states there have been issues/mix-ups owing to the street names/layout, I would’ve been tempted to go out and knock on a few doors. Ocassionally I get items for the wrong address that’s 1 mile away, it can happen.

    Ideally, this should have been pursued with utmost vigour at an earlier stage. The Police don’t make it easy, try walking in your local nick to report something, last time I tried I gave up in frustration, but assuming someone’s deliberately signed for something they know isn’t for them, it’s a case of fraud involving an item worth several hundred pounds and the police can’t ignore it.

    It’s a very unfortunate situation, but the ‘forum detectives’ might wish to spend a little time trawling through recent/previous sales on a well-known internet auction site......or Gumtree etc. Lok at the pics of the watch, there are characteristic age marks on the dial, I could spot this watch and I’m sure others could.

    Needle in a haystack?..........maybe. Shame the right info wasn’t shared far earlier!
    Last edited by walkerwek1958; 5th December 2018 at 17:32.

  33. #33
    Isnt the question of insurance pretty much irrelevant?

    As far as Singapore Post and Royal Mail are concerned the package was delivered (or collected) successfully.

    The seller would not really be able to start a claim against them as they have fulfilled their service.
    The only way I could see this being escalated is if the buyer lodged a claim of theft with the local police station and received a crime reference number. Maybe the buyer has already done this, after all, it does appear that someone has taken the package without his consent.

    I know how this place works differently than other platforms, but I think we are being a bit harsh on the seller. After all, from his perspective, its been delivered/collected and signed for so his side of the deal should be complete.


    Didnt something similar happen earlier in the year and the package "turned up" randomly in the conservatory or something?

  34. #34
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Not safe as a seller receiving Paypal....i lost both watch, money and confidence....

    As I said the fact that you are abroad makes it more complicated:
    You contracted Singapore post to deliver your watch.
    Singapore post gave the parcel to Royal Mail. From this point they have responsibility of your watch.
    They then give the watch to someone other than the intended recipient.
    Unless they can prove the contrary, that’s where the responsibility stops.

    So they are the ones who need to pay up. But they can only pay the claimant, that is you, who entered in a contract that was broken by RM.

    The buyer has absolutely nothing to do with them. But he paid money ( to you) and has no one else to turn to but his CC company to get his money back. RM would not even listen to him.

    Unfortunately (because you are in a very unpleasant situation through no fault of your own) you now have to claim.

    You can pursue paypal since they have allegedly the proof the item was delivered and have apparently acted against their own guidelines

    You can also chase RM (I believe you can do it yourself but you may have to go through Singapore post) to get them to prove they took necessary precautions to hand your parcel over.
    Last edited by Saint-Just; 5th December 2018 at 17:48. Reason: Lapsus corrected
    Well, everybody in Casablanca has problems. Yours may work out.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch View Post
    The insurance company or Royal Mail would never pay out on this. The parcel was not lost, it was delivered correctly and signed for by someone with ID identifying themselves as the correct recipient.

    If they did start paying out in these circumstances, the word would get round and they would be swamped with claims.



    Mitch
    Again, there is anecdotal evidence that Royal Mail will give you parcels without checking that you are indeed the recipient : I have done it once and if you follow the other thread referenced you will see at least another person claiming to have done it. So, if the seller takes it far enough with the police/Singapore post, I imagine that Royal Mail would have to either prove beyond doubt that they handed the parcel to the right person or pay up.

    As it stands, the seller's claim that the buyer should just take the loss themselves is wrong

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    As I said the fact that you are abroad makes it more complicated:
    You contracted Singapore post to deliver your watch.
    Singapore post gave the parcel to Royal Mail. From this point they have responsibility of your watch.
    They then give the watch to someone other than the intended recipient.
    Unless they can prove the contrary, that’s where the responsibility stops.

    So they are the ones who need to pay up. But they can only pay the claimant, that is you, who entered in a contract that was broken by RM.

    The seller has absolutely nothing to do with them. But he paid money ( to you) and has no one else to turn to but his CC company to get his money back. RM would not even listen to him.

    Unfortunately (because you are in a very unpleasant situation through no fault of your own) you now have to claim.

    You can pursue paypal since they have allegedly the proof the item was delivered and have apparently acted against their own guidelines

    You can also chase RM (I believe you can do it yourself but you may have to go through Singapore post) to get them to prove they took necessary precautions to hand your parcel over.
    In your 4th last paragraph I take it you mean the “buyer” not the “seller”

  37. #37
    The seller posted the watch (insured or not) the package arrived at the buyers address / destination and was collect & signed for by the buyer or someone impersonating him/her with the collection card and ID.

    So how is this the sellers problem and was the signature given the correct name of the buyer.
    Last edited by boring_sandwich; 5th December 2018 at 17:47.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by emstudio View Post
    So you sell me a watch, send to me in Singapore with Insurance and the same thing happened. Perhaps you can deal with it.
    Yes, if I sold you a watch, sent it to Singapore and the same thing happened, I would have to claim from whichever carrier I chose to send it with.

  39. #39
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    Provided there is evidence that the package was addressed correctly, RM will stick to their guns and claim it was delivered to the correct address. That puts the onus on the buyer to convince RM and the Police that this didn’t happen. I don’t envy him in this task, but if they’re to take this seriously it needs to happen.

    Usually, when something’s misdelivered it goes to a similar address and there’s a