Rolex is -2/+2 spd.Originally Posted by WillHarris2306
GS hi-beat is +8/-1 spd. The three hi-beat I have owned (bought the new) have all been +7/+8 spd. So for me, the GS hi-beat movement is a gimmic. It’s not accurate enough to valid the disadvantages of hi-beat.
Regular GS mechanicals are rated +10/-1 on the wrist.
I base my GS buys on the case, not the movement type and today I own a quartz GS and a hi-beat GMT. If I was to base my GS decisions by movement it would be quartz>spring drive>low beat>hi-beat.
Last edited by yonsson; 8th December 2018 at 19:37.
Just to correct you a little bit, a new Grand Seiko Standard for their mechanical watches was introduced in 1998, which is -3/+ 5 seconds a day, tested in 6 positions over 17 days.
For comparison the COSC standard is -4/+6 seconds per day, tested in 5 position over 15 days.
Cheers,
Gary
Last edited by Omegary; 8th December 2018 at 19:51.
That's for the movements before casing. Once it's a complete watch, this is what they say:
"Accuracy of Grand Seiko mechanical watches when worn is specified within the target range of -1 to +10 seconds per day. To properly judge the accuracy under normal use conditions, check the mean value of gain / loss over a period of seven to ten days."
"The accuracy of mechanical watches varies slightly from day to day, depending on various conditions. Therefore, the loss / gain of mechanical watches is not measured by a daily rate, but by an average daily rate over a period of 7 to 10 days. For this reason, the accuracy of mechanical watches is indicated by "the mean daily rate"."
Nonetheless, if the watch performs outside specs, Seiko will adjust (regulate) the watch free of charge within the warranty period to suit how it performs on the owner's wrist. I could quote the instruction booklet as it contains words to this effect.
The watches are good but not 'perfect' and Omega and Rolex have raised their game since GS was reintroduced.
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And exactly the same stipulation applies to all COSC rated movements, they're all tested before the watch is actually built.
When you consider that there's 86,400 seconds in a day it's pretty amazing that any mechanical item can be regulated to such fine tolerances, regardless of the brand.
My feeble brain can't do the maths but I wonder what percentage of accuracy that actually is?
Cheers,
Gary
A 10 second gain per day is 99.988% accurate.
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So? I got a question about accuracy and quoted the specs. I’ve owned more that 15 Grand SEIKOs and the spec is +10/+8 / -1. No mechanical GS I have owned has kept impressive time.
I'd love a grand snowflake but can't afford one right now, so I'm 'making do' with my SARX055. It only makes me want a GS more.
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You certainly come from a creditable stance as you've amassed a fair bit of experience of GS that's for sure. Makes for interesting reading.
For sure that is irritating, and it also extends to other luxury brands. I have a few Omegas as that's just where i'm at (will hopefully stretch to a GS / Rolex one day) and it drives me nuts. Why not just add a bloody glidelock-type clasp!!!!? It's a no-brainer, but to be fair i'm told Omega are starting to introduce them into their bracelets these days. About time.
Do you not think that's why many enthusiasts buy them though?
They do seem to take a hit when used, although Snowflakes seem to hold up pretty well for obvious reasons.
That is inexcusable.
I'm sure you're right, but just to be devils advocate do you think they're playing the long game and will catch up?
Just interested in your thoughts.
Last edited by WillHarris2306; 9th December 2018 at 09:44.
I've pondered these myself, looks superb. They're titanium as well aren't they?
I thought the New Rolex, and Omega METAS standards were now for cased watches.
It's just a matter of time...
There are only a small number of GS designs that I like, and the vast majority look quite vulgar to me.
Maybe I've been unlucky, but the finishing in the ones I've owned didn't come close to other watches I own/hace owned.
Taking a loupe highlighted rougher hand finishing, or rougher edges on hour markers for example.
For me they are not a value proposition on the whole. I'm likely to own one or two again, but simply for the overall look and nothing more.
This GS is one of the very best dive watches I have ever used.
Last edited by bedlam; 10th December 2018 at 01:13.
Kinda buying a top model Lexus instead of S-class Mercedes, huh?
Um,... no. :}
Yeah, I guess you have...
Unfortunately I’m not the only one, and when you don’t use precious metal for those parts and I see a number of owners with corrosion issues on watches that cost the same or more than the alternatives then...
The diver above is an amazing looking watch, along with the original GMT Spring Drive - but GS is not the height of watch making, not by a long way in my personal and expensive lessons of experience.
It's just a matter of time...
Just leaving that claim hanging?
Sure like to see pics of all this failure to measure up to the alternatives...
Though I except corrosion happens to watches from any watch maker...that's what servicing and repair is there for
https://youtu.be/VDmi-aGRYgE
Last edited by bedlam; 10th December 2018 at 09:58.
Never seen or even heard of a modern GS with corrosion so something to back that claim would be nice.
Well, now that the issue has been raised; I had a GS, only a few years old, which suffered serious corrosion on the raised numerals and part of the dial. I bought it used, and can't say how water damage , if it was water damage, occurred. Neither could the previous owner, who was as baffled as me. However, rhodium plated parts should not have corroded like that. It seems the underlying quality of material was poor.
Seiko wanted to charge £800 to fix the damage....this on a three-year-old watch where the seals still appeared intact. It had spent most of its short life in a safe. And rhodium plating is supposed to be corrosion resistant.
Make of it what you like, we'l never know what really happened , but my confidence has never fully returned. Grand Seiko seemed completely uninterested in the failure of their materials.
I write this only because the issue has been raised by others; I want GS to do well, but.....
Incidentally, I published pictures of the damage here on TZ; there was quite a lot of discussion .
Last edited by paskinner; 10th December 2018 at 10:54.
A potentially water damaged watch corroded? That is news and clearly GS were as aghast as I at the prospect such a thing could happen. Any pics?
Last edited by bedlam; 10th December 2018 at 10:57.
Grand Seiko didn't seem in the slightest bit 'aghast'. They just said the dial and numerals needed replacing, and quoted the price.They never accepted any responsibility.
As I said, the whole thing was explored in a thread, complete with pictures. July last year.
Incidentally, the previous owner very honourably split the cost of the loss with me and was generally very decent. Fellow TZ member, of course.
I think the guy who bought the damaged watch off me, very cheap, gave-up trying to get it sorted by GS. Maybe it's still out there somewhere. It worked perfectly well. Good timekeeper.
Last edited by paskinner; 10th December 2018 at 11:32.
Interesting, do you think any owners of Swiss brands may defend theres ?
I think it ended up repaired and being flogged on eBay; at least I saw one a while back that fitted the description, had been serviced and had had a new dial in the process.
I remember your thread on the plating issue, which if water ingress had been ruled out, looked like a manufacturing fault with the moisture under the plating. It's a pity some people around here are so belligerent in their demands for proof.
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Well, he doesn’t give us much to go on. A watch with bad gaskets or open crown takes in moisture and there will be effects regardless of the indices material. That doesn’t prove anything.
I'm not seeking to 'prove' anything. Simply recounting my experience because the issue was raised. Make of it what you will.
I still like GS and buy them...but perhaps less starry-eyed.
Last edited by paskinner; 10th December 2018 at 18:58.
Yes. With zaratsu polishing and beautiful proportions.
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Generally using solid precious metals, or high proportion 18k for example, negates corrosion of hands or hour markers. My comments weren’t specific to GS, just that they do not use the same materials that other at or under their price point do.
As I said I like a number of their designs, but not most. Failure to measure up, if you are meaning the specifics of rough edges on hands or hour markers were on watches I have owned over the years and only very clearly visible when viewed under a loupe - I don’t have any pics, as I’m not even capable of taking magnified pics of my current collection never mind watches no longer in my possession.
Do GS make high quality watches, of course they do. Do they have the same quality control as other brands, I couldn’t say. Do they use cheaper materials for certain items than some other brands at the same price point, yes, will I buy another, yes most likely.
It's just a matter of time...
They do indeed look like crap.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bm-18e9B...=15wcc88pfw72g
And in comparison to Patek, VC, AP.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bm3Z4DHH...d=uujav4x4e154
And GS vs Omega & Rolex
I have had this one for a couple of years.
I always find it amusing when people talk about GS watches as being “under the radar”. I generally wear black dial sports watches from a couple of brands; neither my wife or anyone else ever notices or comments, this is good as I prefer to wear understated watches.
I put on the GS. She notices and comments that I am wearing my shiny bling watch! Doesn’t really fit with being “under the radar”.
I'm pleased there are examples of very good finishing on watches.
They do indeed look like crap.
But I'll bow out - and say bollox to it. I'll stay away from GS and won't buy another. Can't be bothered with the whole GS is the be all and end all attitude, and I don't want to associated with a brand where owners act like the worst of Rolex owners on steroids.
I have not experienced that level of finish on at least 2 of the 5 or 6 GS watches I've owned, so I'm pleased for anyone that does.
I've rejected more Omega watches than another brand for their dial and hand finishing - but most of those weren't plated or precious metal either.
Any way enjoy your watches, and your experiences.
It's just a matter of time...
I took delivery of a BNIB Sub ND yesterday and can safely say that it is nowhere near on par with ANY of the GS watches I have owned in terms of fit and finish. Appreciate that's not what a Sub is all about (i.e robust movement etc) and also that the Sub is an entry-level Rolex but I wanted to refute that GS is not at the same level of Rolex as IMHO it is but it depends on what's most important to you. Bracelet? Rolex is better. Fit and finish? GS competes with Patek not Rolex! Design? YMMV, Rolex has some all time classics (IMHO the simple Explorer is pretty much design perfection along with the Speedy Pro) but on the other hand some of the GS dial work is unbelievable.
GS bracelets spoil the experience. It did for me.
No need to defend your GS watches. You are preaching to the choir. I believe their strengths lie with their movements, finish of same and dial detailing work. The rest needs improvement including the aftersales experience. Very good watches but they are still a long ways before they are in a position to start hurting Rolex stand in the world.
I share your sentiments. I drank from the GS koolaid about 10 years ago and for me these were the end and be all of horology. Not any longer and would certainly buy another but now I know what to expect and see GS for what they are. A very good watch with innovative movements and excellent dial work but a piece that is not in the same level of Rolex (Or Patek to be quite honest) and still would benefit from much improvement in the bracelet, case design, wear comfort, warranty and after sales service.
In the same fashion that I tend to reject the Rolex fanaticism from some, I also dislike the cultist vibe surrounding some GS collectors and fans in the inter webs. Thou shall not criticize or question Grand Seiko prowess, ever!
Pluuuzee!
Movements are somewhat behind the swiss. Case and hand finishing is superior to many swiss brands. Bracelet on the gS are generally good but in terms of comfort hard to beat rolex.
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Fair call.
Though when I'm looking at my Spring Drive seconds hands sweep the claim it might lag behind swiss movements makes me chuckle heartily.
I see where you're coming from :)
But the swiss has the tourbillion, split second chronographs, perpetual etcetc the Spring Drive is essentially a standard 3 hand movement with what is essentially an electro magnetic regulator with an internal circuit and quartz oscillator. Don't get me wrong, not trying to "diss" the SD movement. But from a "mechanical watch movement" perspective it doesnt really count but thats just my humble opinion. The swiss also have their ETA Thermo-compensated quartz movements etcetc
Spring Drive is discounted when ones preferred watchmaker doesn't have a movement to compete with it. No matter how you cut it, its not a movement that is lagging behind anything.
I note that almost the entirety of 'the swiss' has been invoked at one point or another to demonstrate the short-comings in Grand Seikos. It would seem to indicate GS are doing very well indeed.
Not saying they are not doing well, in fact they are doing extremely well and many of their watches are even more expensive than many rolex counter parts. Just highlighting their strengths and weaknesses.
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I would also point out that Spring Drive is a clear answer to one of horology's great questions. What type of watch would you take for the zombie apocalypse?!
Quartz accuracy, never needs a battery, doesn't require sunlight. Question answered :-)
I agree.I would also point out that Spring Drive is a clear answer to one of horology's great questions. What type of watch would you take for the zombie apocalypse?!
Quartz accuracy, never needs a battery, doesn't require sunlight. Question answered :-)
I have owned 5 Spring Drive and will surely add another at some point in the future, likely a GMT.
I believe that SD is the real reason to get a Grand Seiko. For quartz, I much prefer a Citizen Chronomaster over a GS 9F offering and when it comes to mechanical, I’d take the Rolex any day of the week and twice on Sunday over any GS 9S mechanical, including the high beats.
In other words, Spring Drive is what truly differentiates Grand Seiko from any other watch out there. If Seiko were to drop SD from production tomorrow there would be no reason left to chose a GS over a comparable Swiss alternative.
Their quartz offering is simply tremendous. SBGX009 is a an absolutely impeccable watch in pretty much every possible way.
Just a half minute's search and I found @paskinner's prior thread, and sales thread FWIW. Interesting, and disturbing that Seiko (Maidenhead, not JP) simply offered an expensive dial replacement. Surely the serial # would've indicated how new it was. :-\
https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...my-Grand-Seiko
I have no part in this, just reposting for those who demanded corroboration but didn't want to search. :}
Just written a long reply and then accidentally deleted it! I was the person who bought that GS. Long story short Seiko UK were a total pain to deal with. Initially they said there was evidence it had been opened in the past and when (with help from the seller and a previous owner) I was able to prove they had opened it for regulation under warranty they got really defensive about how much pride they take in their work and how there was no way they could have been a contributing factor. In the end I coughed up for the work but the best bit is when I received it back from their meticulous craftsmen it was full of dust and had to go off again!
I'm fairly sure it was a manufacturing defect and that's fine in itself but the attitude of the UK service centre was pretty confrontational. I still like GS, the way the light plays on some of the dial and handsets it's the best I've ever seen in any watch but I'm not sure the quality is all it's sometimes made out to be. I've owned 3, the entry level quartz was flawless, this one had issues when I bought it so I'm not counting that but I also had a sbgr095 that had to go back for a smudge on the minute hand. I'd like to try spring drive at some point but I think the quartz models are where the best value and quality lie.
What I took from that is the writer owns the Rolex but not the other two, and the Rolex won.
Nice pics though, and three very nice watches.
"A man of little significance"
Thanks to 'paddy1911' for giving further details. I think he's right...it had a manufacturing defect. I also agree that the quartz models are the best option. And the most basic quartz models can be an excellent choice.
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