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Thread: Grand Seiko - Most Underwhelmed

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  1. #1

    Grand Seiko - Most Underwhelmed

    I was in Kingston this afternoon and stumbled upon the new Grand Seiko display at Chisholm Hunter.

    In the flesh I think they looked mediocre, and on comparison with the cheaper Swiss brands of Raymond Weil, Maurice Lacroix, Baume & Mercier etc. But the prices are very much top drawer.

    I’m sure someone will enlighten me, such as the parts are fashioned on the thighs of Japanese virgins.

    The Tudor display next to it are twice as nice for half the cost.

  2. #2
    Master
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    It's not compulsory to like any brand, maybe GS is just not for you

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    Grand Master Raffe's Avatar
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    Their designs will appeal to some and not to others, but their workmanship and attention to detail beats the standards employed by Tudor, Rolex and many others. That will be important for some and not for others.

    Such is life.
    Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.

  4. #4
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    They are understated. Attention to precision and detail is way above their price point.

  5. #5
    Grand Master Onelasttime's Avatar
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    You need to handle and wear one, and look more closely at the finish and detail.

    Some of their designs lately leave me cold, but the earlier, simple three-handers are among the most beautiful watches I've owned.

    I should have put this in one of the many "Regrets… " threads:





    Unfortunately my rubbish pictures don't capture the way the hands and indices catch the light, or the delicate sunburst finish on the dial, or the mesmerising polish finish on the case. It's hard to describe.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onelasttime View Post
    You need to handle and wear one, and look more closely at the finish and detail.

    Unfortunately my rubbish pictures don't capture the way the hands and indices catch the light, or the delicate sunburst finish on the dial, or the mesmerising polish finish on the case. It's hard to describe.
    Sums it up perfectly for me.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onelasttime View Post
    You need to handle and wear one, and look more closely at the finish and detail.

    Some of their designs lately leave me cold, but the earlier, simple three-handers are among the most beautiful watches I've owned.

    I should have put this in one of the many "Regrets… " threads:





    Unfortunately my rubbish pictures don't capture the way the hands and indices catch the light, or the delicate sunburst finish on the dial, or the mesmerising polish finish on the case. It's hard to describe.
    Which model is that? Look so much nicer on that leather strap to me.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny View Post
    They are understated. Attention to precision and detail is way above their price point.
    Such a pity they have 'Seiko' on the the dial.

  9. #9
    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave in Wales View Post
    Such a pity they have 'Seiko' on the the dial.
    Yes, it would be much better if they were rebranded with another name, not made available to the general public and only sold to the kind of people who stick them on here a few days later for a nice £2k+ profit. Seiko has a fantastic history and the first Grand Seiko came out around 1960, with lots of the current designs modern versions of the originals. I'm pretty sure they make GS in-house too. It's nothing different to Honda building the NSX (the original cars, that is).
    "A man of little significance"

  10. #10
    Grand Master Der Amf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave in Wales View Post
    Such a pity they have 'Seiko' on the the dial.
    Quote Originally Posted by NickRed71 View Post
    The new ones don’t.
    Such a pity the fantastic SEIKO logo has been abandoned. My eyes have finally got used to the naff Gothic script used in Motörhead Grand Seiko logo, but they still feel the absence of the Seiko logo.

  11. #11
    Master bedlam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noTAGlove View Post
    I was in Kingston this afternoon and stumbled upon the new Grand Seiko display at Chisholm Hunter.

    In the flesh I think they looked mediocre, and on comparison with the cheaper Swiss brands of Raymond Weil, Maurice Lacroix, Baume & Mercier etc. But the prices are very much top drawer.

    I’m sure someone will enlighten me, such as the parts are fashioned on the thighs of Japanese virgins.

    The Tudor display next to it are twice as nice for half the cost.
    Looking for flash or to be wowed? GS is probably not for you.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by noTAGlove View Post
    I was in Kingston this afternoon and stumbled upon the new Grand Seiko display at Chisholm Hunter.

    In the flesh I think they looked mediocre, and on comparison with the cheaper Swiss brands of Raymond Weil, Maurice Lacroix, Baume & Mercier etc. But the prices are very much top drawer.

    I’m sure someone will enlighten me, such as the parts are fashioned on the thighs of Japanese virgins.

    The Tudor display next to it are twice as nice for half the cost.
    When you say “in the flesh” - did you handle them and wear them? Or just look at them from a foot or so? Or just see them through glass?

    They’re not shouty watches, more like a little secret on the wrist :)

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by noTAGlove View Post
    I was in Kingston this afternoon and stumbled upon the new Grand Seiko display at Chisholm Hunter.
    So was I on the way home from work. I’ve looked at the GS display several times. Nice compared to gaudy alternatives but haven’t really grabbed my attention yet. There was a snowflake dial in the display several weeks ago that I liked. Overall, I thought the nicest in the window were a little Hamilton Khaki for about £300 and the Black Bays


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  14. #14
    Master Glen Goyne's Avatar
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    Each to their own ofcourse. What was underwhelming to you? Design? Finish?


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  15. #15
    I have a Timex that I think is nicer than a Day Date therefore all Rolex are rubbish.

  16. #16
    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
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    I looked at the display at CH in Edinburgh and was underwhelmed, but then they didn't have any of the good Hi-Beat 36000 ones, with or without GMT. Or the new quartz GMTs.
    "A man of little significance"

  17. #17
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    I totally agree with the OP. I was really looking forward to seeing them and buying one in Japan while I was there the other month. The bracelets especially, imho, felt flimsy and poor.

    Luckily for me I'd bought a Longines VHP in Heathrow on the way out which I was very impressed with.

  18. #18
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    Love my two.



  19. #19
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    It's good to see them in the shops, where people can judge for themselves.

  20. #20
    Craftsman Pupp's Avatar
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    Quite an extensive Hodinkee feature on GS appeared in my feed this morning; maybe not entirely objective but some interesting info and images,

    Have a Snowflake and a Peacock hi-beat; neither are daily wearers but do really enjoy wearing them when the mood takes. Would love an Eichi II Credor at some point...

    The quality of execution of my two easily matches anything else in my collection and the legibility is a league better than most, notably including a green glass Milgauss that is a disaster in that department...

  21. #21
    Master OldHooky's Avatar
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    Ruling out a brand based on a few models is a bit rash. I’ve found that most GS leave me cold, but a few really hit the spot. Luckily I’ve come across a couple of the range which are subtly sublime.

    Keep looking.


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  22. #22
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    They are definitely growers. You have to wear them for a bit and see how they react in different lighting, get to know them a little. Then one day you’ll look at your wrist and think, hang on, that’s actually perfect. People are suspicious of the bracelets because a very heavy solid link bracelet seems impressive, but the GS are the most comfortable of any watch I’ve owned. Perhaps not something that will motivate you to buy like an Overseas or Royal Oak bracelet, but effective and they seem to last - I wouldn’t assume that heavy means good, certainly not from a comfort point of view.

    I’m no GS zealot, the divers and chronos leave me cold and I think the autos should all be thinner. But that still leaves more watches in the range that I’d happily wear than most other brands. I suspect this is more a discussion about style than quality though. If you prefer the look of those other brands then sure, why shouldn’t you. They’re not for everyone, you have to like the design language and the brand story. And they’re expensive enough that it’s fair enough to ask if they’re worth it, particularly at UK prices. I think I preferred them being a good value secret to having ‘super luxury’ prices, and still prefer the more attainable quartz at used prices. But they do have something about them and it’s quite addictive.

  23. #23
    Craftsman ChromeJob's Avatar
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    Some people say precisely this about Rolex, PP, Breitling, et al. “I looked at one, don’t see what all the fuss is about. Way overpriced.” For ALL these brands, it may help to know about the manufacturing, or the attention to detail, or the obsession about fit and finish. For some, the history of the brand or the vintage watch in view matters a lot.

    As someone said, a loupe can reveal detailing that is otherwise lost until you see the light catch them (like diamonds). A glance in a stores != wearing and admiring a watch over time.

    Or ... maybe you’re just not into prestige watches, or only into a certain brand that commands some cachet. No fault there.

    As far as opinions go, I tend to side with those who’ve spent more time examining and appreciating a watch/model/brand than those who “looked, wasn’t impressed.” No insult intended, I just respect the viewpoint of someone who’s invested more into developing their interest.

  24. #24
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    I think they look worse on a bracelet. On leather you really get the full detail.

  25. #25
    Craftsman trott3r's Avatar
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    My grand seiko spring drive SBGA099 was underwelming to start with.
    It is as someone else has mentioned only really appreciated when you have worn it a while and see how it catches the light and the purity of the crystal.

    It doesnt help being winter and looking at it in artificial light.
    Natural light seems to make them look better.

  26. #26
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    I put all my Grand Seikos on leather straps; they look much better like that.

  27. #27
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    I would suggest that Grand Seiko mechanical watches are a welcome alternative to good European watches (Swiss and German); but I don't see them as superior overall.
    In fact, forced to choose, I'd say Rolex have a real lead; longer guarantees, better mechanical movements, a better history, easier access to service , a wider range of models.....which is why they have better resale values.
    So, yes, GS are fascinating watches, with a lovely finish. But they have work to do.......
    Where they do lead the field is in great quartz models, and the innovative spring-drives.
    Last edited by paskinner; 6th December 2018 at 18:48.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by paskinner View Post
    I would suggest that Grand Seiko mechanical watches are a welcome alternative to good European watches (Swiss and German); but I don't see them as superior overall.
    In fact, forced to choose, I'd say Rolex have a real lead; longer guarantees, better mechanical movements, a better history, easier access to service , a wider range of models.....which is why they have better resale values.
    So, yes, GS are fascinating watches, with a lovely finish. But they have work to do.......
    Where they do lead the field is in great quartz models, and the innovative spring-drives.
    Good call, and interesting thoughts. Now I'm even more unsure :)

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  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by paskinner View Post
    I would suggest that Grand Seiko mechanical watches are a welcome alternative to good European watches (Swiss and German); but I don't see them as superior overall.
    In fact, forced to choose, I'd say Rolex have a real lead; longer guarantees, better mechanical movements, a better history, easier access to service , a wider range of models.....which is why they have better resale values.
    So, yes, GS are fascinating watches, with a lovely finish. But they have work to do.......
    Where they do lead the field is in great quartz models, and the innovative spring-drives.
    However, Rolex do have a significant shortcoming in my eyes which is that they are much, much uglier and with the possible exception of the Explorer there isn’t one current Rolex I’d want to wear.

  30. #30
    Master bedlam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paskinner View Post
    ....In fact, forced to choose, I'd say Rolex have a real lead; longer guarantees, better mechanical movements, a better history, easier access to service , a wider range of models.....which is why they have better resale values....
    Ummm, a couple of things;

    That history where Wilsdorf rebranded another company's movement and went on to have great success is better than Seiko's? Obviously that is a matter of opinion. Both companies have amazing history in watch making.

    Better movements? Do Rolex do a high-beat movement? They certainly have nothing like Spring Drive.

    I have personally had no problem with access to service, even in Australia. The problems with Rolex servicing of older watches is legend.

    There is no way you can seriously claim there are more Rolex models than GS models available.

    Also, you didn't mention the purchasing experience; when buying my AD didn't make me go on a waitlist. Neither did they keep my tags and the like.

    Both Rolex and GS are quality watches. There is no case to be made that GS have a way to go - they have well and truly arrived.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedlam View Post
    Ummm, a couple of things;

    That history where Wilsdorf rebranded another company's movement and went on to have great success is better than Seiko's? Obviously that is a matter of opinion. Both companies have amazing history in watch making.

    Better movements? Do Rolex do a high-beat movement? They certainly have nothing like Spring Drive.

    I have personally had no problem with access to service, even in Australia. The problems with Rolex servicing of older watches is legend.

    There is no way you can seriously claim there are more Rolex models than GS models available.

    Also, you didn't mention the purchasing experience; when buying my AD didn't make me go on a waitlist. Neither did they keep my tags and the like.

    Both Rolex and GS are quality watches. There is no case to be made that GS have a way to go - they have well and truly arrived.
    I agree both have great histories and both are great watches. But Rolex have the better movements period. Rolex can make a high beat if they wanted to, does GS have an annual calendar? Compare the daytona to the GS offering the Rolex movements are thinner more accurate robust and easily serviced. This for me is the area where GS cannot compete head to head. Not dissing the GS by any means. Both great watches with different strengths. Just movements are not the strength of the GS. Finishing is.


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  32. #32
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    I've never owned a GS, although i shall do one day, and may go quartz i think.

    However has anyone any experience with servicing in the UK (i.e. cost on the Auto / Hi-Beat / Spring Drive / Quartz, and standard of customer service)? My limited understanding is they can now service all their movements at Seiko UK in Maidenhead after getting the specialist training needed, but for Zaratsu case finishing it still has to go back to Japan.

    You of course often read of varying experiences but when i was hanging out on WUS i heard mixed views on the above. Some UK members had some pretty negative experiences saying there where some QC issues, but that was quite a while back and i would assume they've ironed out the creases by now.

    Don't they also employ quite timely obsolescence with regards to parts supplies for their watches (i.e. they only guarantee parts availability for 10 years or something)? May be a load of old cobblers but i recall hearing it from somewhere...
    Last edited by WillHarris2306; 7th December 2018 at 11:51.

  33. #33

    i wish i could ignore

    I want to like them, i love Japanese engineering and innovation, i think the movements are stunning but what drives me made is the clash of the modern seiko font with the gothic grand seiko logo and font, how can you spent so much time getting so much right and go oh that will be fine. I could let it go if it looked as if it was painted with a brush but the italic pen is just so wrong culturally and aesthetically its always driven me mad. The crazy thing is the Japanese are so good at the details but it looks like they've tried to steal something so germanic to try and give it a european feel and have missed the point. I hope they realise this and fix it because Idris love to own one, but at the moment it would jar every time i looked at it.

  34. #34
    Master yonsson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaiserphoenix View Post
    I agree both have great histories and both are great watches. But Rolex have the better movements period. Rolex can make a high beat if they wanted to, does GS have an annual calendar? Compare the daytona to the GS offering the Rolex movements are thinner more accurate robust and easily serviced. This for me is the area where GS cannot compete head to head. Not dissing the GS by any means. Both great watches with different strengths. Just movements are not the strength of the GS. Finishing is.


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    It’s a matter of philosophy. All mechanical GS movements have individually adjusted alloy hairsprings, that’s why they are not as accurate as Rolex movements. Seiko has a long history of watchmaking and from their view, silicon hairsprings are fragile and not yet proven over a long time period. Removing the hairspring adjustments would remove a lot of the philosophical craftsmanship that makes them GS.

    It will be interesting to see if GS converts to silicon hairsprings due to pressure from buyers demanding higher accuracy or if they find another solution for their purely mechanical movements.

    in short, I agree, GS movements are not close to as accurate as Rolex movements.

  35. #35
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    Top quality, under the radar watches. I loved mine, and now asp have a Seiko MM300 which I love for the same reasons as my Gw5000-1Jf to other it’s just a seiko or Casio.


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  36. #36
    Craftsman ChromeJob's Avatar
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    One thing the GS' have going for them, is stealth prestige. To some chav, it probably just looks like a 100 quid Seiko. But when you LOOK at it, you start to see the exquisite sparkle.

  37. #37
    Master JPE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChromeJob View Post
    One thing the GS' have going for them, is stealth prestige. To some chav, it probably just looks like a 100 quid Seiko. But when you LOOK at it, you start to see the exquisite sparkle.
    Kinda buying a top model Lexus instead of S-class Mercedes, huh?

  38. #38
    Craftsman ChromeJob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPE View Post
    Kinda buying a top model Lexus instead of S-class Mercedes, huh?
    Um,... no. :}

  39. #39
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    Design is ofcourse subjective but i find many of GS design not that great or rather quite plain in many ways.

    The case and hand finishing however are top grade, on par with anything the swiss has to offer including and surpassing patek or vacheron etc.

    Movement architecture again needs improvement as they are unecessarily thick and contrary to popular conception they are NOT as accurate as say Rolex or Patek seal standard. Check the allowances on the GS movements and they are far more lenient.


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  40. #40
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    I'd agree that GS movements are generally less precise than those from firms such as Rolex; where GS score is in quality of finish. Personally, I think they are top-rank with their quartz and Spring-drive products, less so with purely mechanical movements.
    Given higher prices, they also need to offer longer guarantees. They need to try a little harder because the European competition is tough. Still, that said, an attractive alternative.

  41. #41
    Master bedlam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paskinner View Post
    I'd agree that GS movements are generally less precise than those from firms such as Rolex
    If you know anything about the history of competitions for movement accuracy that is a strange claim.

    https://www.grand-seiko.com/global-en/about/history
    Last edited by bedlam; 3rd December 2018 at 12:36.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedlam View Post
    If you know anything about the history of competitions for movement accuracy that is a strange claim.

    https://www.grand-seiko.com/global-en/about/history
    It is based on my ownership of several Grand Seiko mechanical watches, including hi-beats. None has been quite as precise as any of my Rolexes. Indeed, GS do not claim the same level of precision in their published specs. Whether it 'matters' is a personal thing. And, of course, other people may have found a different result.
    Now, the spring-drive is another matter.

  43. #43
    I quite like mine :) the dial and hands are amazing (imo) and the sweep of the second hand is really mesmerising.

    Having wanted a sub for 20 years I was totally underwhelmed with it when I got it and moved it on quickly, each to his own.


  44. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by TheTigerUK View Post
    I quite like mine :) the dial and hands are amazing (imo) and the sweep of the second hand is really mesmerising.

    Having wanted a sub for 20 years I was totally underwhelmed with it when I got it and moved it on quickly, each to his own.
    Hi John... good to see you here showing your fabulous Titanium SBGC005.

    Here's my SBGC013 I bought new a couple of years ago. I absolutely love it.
    It doesn't get better than this!....


  45. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by paskinner View Post
    It is based on my ownership of several Grand Seiko mechanical watches, including hi-beats. None has been quite as precise as any of my Rolexes. Indeed, GS do not claim the same level of precision in their published specs. Whether it 'matters' is a personal thing. And, of course, other people may have found a different result.
    Now, the spring-drive is another matter.
    Agreed. Don’t waste your time with mechanical GS pieces. It is Spring Drive, 9F Quartz or bust!

  46. #46
    Master PreacherCain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noTAGlove View Post
    I was in Kingston this afternoon and stumbled upon the new Grand Seiko display at Chisholm Hunter.

    In the flesh I think they looked mediocre, and on comparison with the cheaper Swiss brands of Raymond Weil, Maurice Lacroix, Baume & Mercier etc. But the prices are very much top drawer.

    I’m sure someone will enlighten me, such as the parts are fashioned on the thighs of Japanese virgins.

    The Tudor display next to it are twice as nice for half the cost.
    As with so much else, it's in the eye of the beholder. FWIW I feel the same way about Rolex: I understand why others love them, but I just don't get the attraction. Doesn't make anyone right, or wrong.

    For me, the attraction of GS is less about the imagination or originality of the design than it is the bewildering attention to detail in execution; for example, the power reserve cutout on my Snowflake - even the inside surface of the cutout is mirror-polished, such that it reflects the (perfectly polished and faceted) markers and the subdial texture. Despite being titanium, the case sides are beautifully polished, and the slight inwards rake of the case sides adds a degree of grace and lightness to the whole shape. These are all tiny factors and individually don't matter - but their cumulative impact on the whole is, for me, considerable.

    As a separate point, I also enjoy the fact that Seiko make everything in-house. Vertical integration of that sort speaks to me of a kind of purity of purpose. Again, not objective and very possibly not relevant - but I like it. :)

    Finally, nobody else makes Spring Drive. And I think it's ace.

  47. #47
    And then there's the amazing Snowflake. I bought this one from the forum about 3 years ago.
    I love the understated beauty, the driven snow effect of the dial, and the gentle sweep of the mesmerising second hand.
    Made of bright titanium this must be one of the lightest and most comfortable quality watches in the world. Fabulous.


  48. #48
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    I took 17 watches with me to the recent Bristol GTG. The one which had the most positive comments was the Grand Seiko sbgj021


  49. #49
    Master shalako's Avatar
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    I remember during the summer I was sat outside with some friends from my local tennis club and one of them who is not big into watches wanted to have a look at the Grand Seiko Snowflake I was wearing as he had become intrigued by some of the different watches I had been wearing of late.
    I took it off and he looked at it really closely and tried to guess the value and between three of them they come up with £100-150. I guess that could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your perspective, great from a stealth point of view but also interesting that too non WIS people it looks like any other Seiko you could pick up from H Samuel even after close inspection......
    Last edited by shalako; 3rd December 2018 at 21:59.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by shalako View Post
    I remember during the summer I was sat outside with some friends from my local tennis club and one of them who is not big into watches wanted to have a look at the Grand Seiko Snowflake I was wearring as he had become intrigued by some of the different watches I had been wearing of late.
    I took it off and he looked at it really closely and tried to guess the value and between three of them they come up with £100-150. I guess that could be a good thing or a bad think depending on your perspective, great from a stealth point of view but also interesting that too non WIS people it looks like any other Seiko you could pick up from H Samuel even after close inspection......
    A lot of it comes down to people's reactions to the Seiko logo. Some probably think it's Japanese for 'Cheap' and can't see past that. If you'd put the logo of a certain other famous brand on the dial they'd have looked at exactly the same watch and confidently told you it cost £5k. That's life...

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