Hi,
Writing this in the hope that someone can offer any advice on a problem with a grey dealer on chrono24, Time Art from Germany.
I bought a Speedmaster from them a couple of years ago and when I was looking for Seamaster 300m earlier this month I found they had one advertised on chrono24 at a good price.
On the 1st of October I asked if they had the watch in stock and received immediate confirmation and the bank details for the wire transfer. I figured since it was my second watch from them, there shouldn't be any issues and wired the money on the 2nd of October.
One week later I asked what the status was, only to be informed they had placed an order for my watch with their Omega dealer and should be receiving it in a week. At this point alarm bells started ringing and after a bit of diggin found some horrible reviews on google about them holding on to people's money for months. I started to pressure the seller and now he says his dealer placed an order with Omega for the watch and I should be patient; bare in mind the 300m in the ceramic version I paid for was replaced this year with newer models by Omega...
After all this, I wrote them I will be making a claim with the police if I dont receive a refund. The reply came that I wrote a bad message...
What I'm trying to figure out now is how I can recover my money, it's 2,550 and I refuse to just walk away. I have contacted chrono24 and provided all the details, but still waiting for feedback. Any guidance will be very appreciated.
Kind Regards,
Catalin
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Get together copies of absolutely all of the paperwork/correspondence relating to this, book a flight and turn up on their doorstep to resolve matters in person.
If no joy, contact the local police on your mobile phone in front of them.
Take it from there really.
Are you not covered by Chrono24's escrow security ?
Suggest push them, they work closely with Ebay as well AFAIK...
Good luck, keep us posted please
DO you have the name of the individual involved there ? Please PM as I have had my fingers burnt on a watch purchase via a USA based forum, and a very sleek German 'seller' has conned numerous buyers, in the hands of the Munich Police but I don't expect any refunds...
Cheers, Peter
Last edited by ingenioren; 20th October 2018 at 08:38.
I would have said the same but the op wired the money directly to them. Not all sales on C24 have the escrow option.Sent from my SM-N910F using TapatalkOriginally Posted by ingenioren
Morning,
That is correct, I wired the money directly to their bank account as instructed (obvious mistake on my part...).
In the meantime, I have done a bit of research on the company, full name is Time Art Company Exclusive Accessories GmbH, and the address is shared by Zewi Berlin Handels GmbH, which is an official dealer for Ulysse Nardin and Perrelet. I've also managed to find information online with regard to their manager and the shareholders on northdata.de and sent an email to one describing the situation and mentioning I will report the incident to the Police. Furthermore, I filed an online complaint with econsumer.gov, but I doubt it will be looked at considering the small amount of money involved.
At this point in time, I would rather put pressure on them to issue the refund indirectly. Not sure if going there in person would help matters, I don't speak German and wouldn't want to end up with a fine for disturbing the peace. One of the persons that left a bad review on google, mentioned he had to involve an attorney to recover 37KEUR (a Patek was involved) after six months of waiting for the watch or a refund. Obviously, I don't want to end up paying legal fees in excess of the money I stand to lose.
Kind Regards,
Catalin
Last edited by Inq24; 20th October 2018 at 09:20.
It may be best to wait another week to see if the seller does provide the goods. This will also give chrono24 some time to investigate. I guess you can take some comfort that you have bought from this seller before so you know they do actually deal in watches (albeit poorly), rather than being a complete scammer.
Speak to chrono24 directly. They are very helpful and all speak perfect English, I'm sure they will call the dealer for you and have a word on your behalf
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I'm trying to be patient and see what chrono24 answer. I've asked the seller for a refund and sent them my bank details, they said my request was forwarded to accounting, but no firm date was provided...
Found some comfort reading their reviews on chrono24 as most buyers complain about long wait times, 5-6 weeks and even 3 months, but they deliver in the end. I will insist for a refund though and try to buy the watch from a seller who has inventory, even if I pay a bit more.
Kind Regards,
Catalin
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Brief update: No comms from the seller, but chrono24 pulled all their ads from the website and have asked me to contact them again if I dont receive a refund by Monday.
Kind Regards,
Catalin
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Fingers crossed it gets the seller's attention.
Hope this turns out ok for you ..good luck.
Sounds like Chrono24 is supportive (for once). Fingers crossed.
If you need assistance from a German speaker, please PM me.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Hope it is OK to hijack the thread? I too have doubts about some sellers on Chrono24. NoblesseWatch is one who has had bad press on this forum. Last week I sent a query about a watch they are advertising, here is the response: 'Greetings, I will be in touch either tomorrow or Monday, Regards, Dan' - So far nothing more heard from them. Has anybody had a positive experience with them?
Last edited by ALindsay; 24th October 2018 at 18:16. Reason: typo
Hi,
Seller is no longer responding to my messages and I have a feeling that chrono24 are under pressure from a number of people in my situation, just read a google review dated yesterday which describes the exact same situation I'm in right now.
I have a feeling this is a scam, the ceo of the company was changed in Sep.18 and I think they are going to do a dissapearing act with everyone who was foolish enough to send them money.
Can anyone let me know how to file a police claim with the German police? I tried, but could only find a link where you report a crime or incident, not sure if there should be something dedicated to online fraud.
Kind Regards,
Catalin
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Noblesse often appear in searches as one of the cheaper suppliers on Chrono24 and I always pass over very quickly based on feedback I have read. Important to remember that Chrono24 are little more than an eBay equivalent without the protection, so any dealer you buy from should have positive reviews and ideally a bricks and mortar presence. This obviously doesnt help the OP, but just a note to beware.
Good Evening,
I managed to file an online report with the German Police, hope someone will handle this considering the small amount of money involved. Even if I dont recover the funds, I want these people to be held accountable.
Regarding chrono24, I think you should research the seller thoroughly before committing to buy, never pay directly to the sellers bank account and ask for up to date detailed pictures of the watch or even a video of the watch in operation. If they can't be bothered, avoid the seller, the prices aren't fantastic so it's not like they're doing the buyer any favors.
Kind Regards,
Catalin
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Your information is wrong/outdated.
The company moved to Baden Baden in Southern Germany in 2017 (Ooser Hauptstraße 6 a, 76532 Baden-Baden). In September 2018, they switched the CEO, now a guy from Berlin (pointing to an existing connection to Berlin). I'd be surprised if the sharing of their former address with Zewi was more than coincidence, absolutely no connection (and the registered address of Zewi is elsewhere, too).
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Zewi also have a shop in Baden Baden as far as I know. The credentials of the person who spoke on behalf of Time Art had references to Zewi Luxury and one phone number matched between Time Art and Zewi too...
Kind Regards,
Catalin
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Last edited by Inq24; 25th October 2018 at 07:58.
Police won't do anything because no crime has been committed. Yes, you have paid three weeks ago and they don't reply to your emails, but that is just shoddy customer service and not a crime.
For all business conducted via remote (Internet, phone), you have the right to return the merchandise within two weeks of receipt, no questions asked (good enough that you just changed your mind). Since the watch hasn't been delivered, you can just cancel the transaction. Do that today. Tell them to send your money back within a week. Once that week is over, you can take legal action.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Hi,
I am not the only person in this situation considering the recent google review, which is most likely why chrono24 took down their ads, and in my opinion what they did is called internet fraud. They used old pictures of a watch and confirmed they had it in order to get me to wire the money (ouside of chrono24 payment system) and now they refuse to issue a refund or answer any of my messages.
They lied about them having the watch in stock, lied about the dealer having the watch in stock after I asked them 2 weeks after the payment and lied that the dealer ordered the watch from Omega a week later - this model is discontinued. I have evidence of all this btw..
If I sold something I didn't have and kept the buyers money, does this not constitute perpetrating fraud?
Kind Regard,
Catalin
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Last edited by Inq24; 25th October 2018 at 08:10.
You can argue with me all you want. If you want your money back, cancel the transaction and set a deadline for them to return the money.
If you prefer pointless discussions what constitutes fraud, I suggest you read the criminal code: https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/263.html Lying to a customer about a certain watch being in stock is certainly not fraud.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
I set a deadline for either refund or watch that came and went. Last weekend I asked them to cancel the transaction altogether and asked them to issue a refund and radio silence since.
I really have no intent of arguing with you and if you say that the justice system in Germany would not treat this as fraud I'm not in the position to contradict you. However, I am still going to do whatever I can to recover my money or at least spread the word so others won't find themselves in my position.
All the best,
Catalin
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I understand that you are upset and want your money back. If you have an insurance for legal fees, you can contact a German lawyer and ask them to write a letter to the business. If not, you can contact a consumer protection agency and ask them to help you. https://verbraucherschutz.de/kontakt...nternetseiten/
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
very handy thread.as i've been looking at chrono24 recently for a watch for the wife. i assume if i use a dealer that uses the escrow payment system then chrono take all the responsibility ?
Chrono24 acts as a go between and in theory protects the buyer as the money is held in an escrow account. However the problems start if you are sent a bad watch and raise a dispute. Your money is then in Chrono24's hands who may or may not uphold your complaint. Personally I'd pay by credit card or PayPal as it offers much more protection. Do your research on the seller, have they got a bricks and mortar shop etc. There are plenty of fake reviews out there too.
cheers bud. paypal or credit card would be the way to go i think.
I was put off them due to their fraudulent business address. This is the response I received when I enquired about visiting their Edinburgh address (which is not their address):
Greetings, I'm afraid that might be a bit inconveniencing. We predominantly sell via internet thru Chrono24. Wont you consider that, or you only do pick ups?
They have apparently good feedback on Chrono24, but the fraudulent address overrides that for me.
With regard to my situation, I am sorry to report that my fears have been founded and these people are indeed operating a scam using Time Art and chrono24 as their front. Every other day a new review about this shop is posted on google by others in my situation. Probably after chrono24 pulled their ads people who sent them money realized what was going on.
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Last edited by Inq24; 30th October 2018 at 07:08.
Oh dear! Are you going down the legal route now with some solicitors? Probably worth trying unless these guys have vanished.
One legal firm informed me the legal fees to pursue this will exceed the value of the transaction and another firm qouted 250 for 3h of legal services in order to analyze the documents, but not sure how costly subsequent actions will be so will try to get a ballpark figure before committing. I have absolutely no intention to walk away until I have exhausted all means of recovering the funds.
In the meantime, chrono24 blocked the seller altogether from their platform and informed me they will provide information if required by law enforcement, otherwise they cant assist me further since I paid directly to the dealer.
I've bought and sold watches for a hobby in the past 12 years with no major incidents, even shipped a couple of watches to private individuals before collecting payment. I really wasn't expecting for this incident to happen with a German shop with whom I have dealt before with no issues whatsoever. Moral of the story is always do your homework and avoid paying via bank transfer abroad, unless 100% confident in the seller.
Kind Regard,
Catalin
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Hello
had some success in the past with a German seller by looking into his address, occupation, electoral register etc. in my case turned out to be an army lieutenant, which gave me some leverage. Had full refund threatening to get in touch with the german military Ombudsman etc
Same would be if he is a bank clerk, or any profession where honesty is a prime requirement
BWs and good luck
Franco
Hi Franco,
Thank you for the advice but unfortunately searching for the details of the business yielded little results, seem to change address and management on a regular basis. The manager was changed as early as Sep.18 and the new name has zero footprint online, unlike the previous person. Searching for the name of the employee I've been in contact was in vain too.
I did get a message from a Consumer Protection agency today, they have asked me to send them the details in German using google translate, which I'll be doing shortly.
Kind Regards,
Catalin
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All seems to suggest C24 don't really check out sellers thoroughly before allowing them to use the site. Makes you wonder why reputable sellers want to be associated with the site.
Latest google review posted 5 hours ago:
"Scam artist, took £30000 for a deposit for a watch 3 months ago never receievd the watch and now i'm in a battle to reclaim my money."
This is the fourth similar message in the last couple of days, makes you wonder just how many were scammed and how much money they made using chrono24. Absolutely outrageous that they allowed this to happen, unbelievable. My gut feeling is the seller honored sales made through chrono24, but kept the money from people foolish enough to pay directly via bank transfer as per their first instructions when anyone would ask about a watch. Chrono24 were basically ok with getting some fees and didnt care that their platform was basically used to scam people for the past six to eight months.
Kind Regards,
Catalin Somer
Last edited by Inq24; 30th October 2018 at 21:20.
Whatt a strange comment.
C24 operate a sales platform, just like eBay. What sort of due diligence do you expect them to conduct on a newly listed seller? Just like on eBay, any buyer has always been advised to use caution and to do your own due diligence on any seller. c24 can only act once they have received complaints about seller behaviour.
They already offer the trusted checkout, something reasonable sellers will offer to buyers. Proceed at your own risk if you ignore these points - just like on eBay.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
I would honestly expect chrono24 to restrict access for sellers that ask buyers to bypass the payment system and suspend the account if the seller will attempt to hold on to the money they receive for months. The first report was from April this year and I'm pretty sure the buyer contacted chrono24 to explain the situation, even the reviews on their platform mentioned the seller used the practice of asking to be paid directly via bank transfer when first contacted which would normally raise some red flags. Only when things got out of hand did they take any action, too late for me and a couple of others.
Kind Regards,
Catalin
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There is no mandatory payment system - so your claim of 'bypassing' is nonsense. Why did you pay to their bank account if you think that was in breach of the rules?
I understand that you are desperate and want your money back. But it's pointless to try and lay blame on C24 - pursue the alley you have already started: cancel the transaction and ask the money back. As I suggested, talking to the consumer protection agency is your best alternative.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
This a copy of the process on their website:
1. Find your dream watch
2. Pay via a secure escrow account
3. Receive your new watch
4. Only then will the seller receive payment
I would imagine that sending the buyer instructions to pay directly to the seller's bank account is bypassing the process.
Chrono24 seem to have restricted sellers from sending bank information in messages, the message I initially got from Time Art is now missing part of the iban account, swift code and name of beneficiary so I guess they realized the faulty system, just too late.
I'm not laying the blame with chrono24, it lies mostly with me, but can't help but feel that chrono24 could do a better job of protecting naive people.
I have asked for a cancellation of the order and a refund, setting a firm deadline a week ago, radio silence of course. I have contacted a consumer protection agency too and have been in contact with them.
Kind Regards,
Catalin
Last edited by Inq24; 30th October 2018 at 23:01.
Wrong.
Chrono24 offer both trusted checkout as well as direct trading between seller and buyer including payment to the seller's bank account. The above process description is the one for trusted checkout, but the other option exists just as well.
If you think that buyers should only use trusted checkout, why didn't you?
I wish you the best of luck with claiming back your money, my point is that you are not helping your case with publishing pointless allegations. Follow the process which I laid out for you and you will get your money back (unless they claim bancruptcy, in which case you will receive only part of the money back).
Last edited by Raffe; 30th October 2018 at 23:10.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
That process is on their front page, it doesn't even refer to being trusted checkout.
I didn't use it because I have dealt before with the seller and figured it was ok if chrono24 allow it, but now even the message with the bank details I got from the seller has been modified by chrono24 to remove parts of the iban, swift code and name of beneficiary which leads me to believe they no longer allow this. My problem is the original message got through with the payment details intact and I used these to wire the money.
By the way, if you do try to write your bank details in a message, all the bank details are censored, I can take a screenshot from when I sent the details for the refund, I sent them afterwards via whatsup anyway hoping for a happy resolution.
Kind Regards,
Catalin
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Last edited by Inq24; 30th October 2018 at 23:18.
From the C24 Q&A:
Last edited by Raffe; 30th October 2018 at 23:28.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
And this is how a message containing bank details looks like. Name is intact, but Iban is not.
Kind Regards,
Catalin
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That is a normal security mechanism, the same applies to eBay and Amazon direct messages. It's a way to make sure fraudsters cannot take over the sellers account and redirect payments.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Ok, I understand now. Basically you are still allowed to pay via bank transfer but you're on your own. That whole screening and extensive validating process won't help one bit if the seller decides to take the money and disappear. I still dont understand why they waited since the first report in April 2018. If one buyer ends up needing legal assistance to recover their funds, how is the seller still allowed to do business for another 6 months?!
Kind Regards,
Catalin
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Above noted, but what about this quote from C24 site?
Over 2,000 screened dealers
Selling watches is a matter of trust. That's why we review all of our dealers based on strict criteria before they are allowed to list watches on Chrono24.
Well I suppose they did, but there was a management change at the dealer in question.
Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.
Was he a trusted seller?
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No, but he sold around 303 watches using trusted check out and had a 4.5 star rating after 179 reviews for what it's worth... They've blocked his account, but I can still see it on my chrono24 app.
What's funny is he still responds to my messages on whatsup. I was told I would get a refund asap on Thursday...
I have been in contact with a legal firm in Berlin and it will cost me around 600 to initiate the legal process, which I will pay upfront and recover the money if the decision is in my favour. If they file for insolvency it could prove difficult to recover the money, but I'm committed to follow things through whatever it takes, there is always the matter of what I still see as a deliberate fraud, the seller having taken various amounts of money from a number of people under false pretenses and then closing up shop.
Kind Regards,
Catalin
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Hope you achieve a good refund Catalin
If you still have a line of comms via WhatsApp keep it going
Rather than end up with nothing maybe you can get something else from them they have in stock .?
Long shot I know but throwing 600 not legal fees could just compound your pain.
Hope it works out
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