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Thread: Should I name the dealer that sold me a fake watch?

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by sean View Post
    It sounds like this is a guy with a modest bricks & mortar antiques business that includes a few watches, so it's probably unlikely that many other forum members will be shopping at his premises anytime soon--it's not like it's WF we're talking about here. That being said, the way this thread is playing out, it seems the OP is primarily interested in using it as a way to pressure the dealer into refunding. 'Forum spirit' would dictate the OP name the dealer so that all the people who've voiced an opinion of wanting to avoid this fellow can do so. I think there's been only one person (sigh) who's suggested not naming him, so as per the thread title, "Should I name the dealer that sold me a fake watch?", YES, NAME HIM!

    The H&V forum would be the appropriate place for all this, although it may not have got as much coverage.
    I can assure you that my intention in posting this thread was not as a means to pressure the dealer into a refund. In any case I have written the cost of the watch off against the experience.

    As you can see from the dates in the post almost three weeks have elapsed since I received the watch back and I could have used the forum for leverage during the initial correspondence if that what my intention.

    It was kevkojak's suggestion that I direct him to this thread and I have now done this. I will be happy to post his response.

    I have already spent far too much time on what was a low value purchase but it keeps niggling me that he is probably continuing to sell these fakes.

  2. #52
    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
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    It's ultimately all about reputation. They do something good and accept you aren't happy and they rectify it or they don't, and we know they're not about customer first and selling goods that aren't correct (whether knowingly or not, which doesn't show them in a good light either way). If they didn't know it was a redial, they should accept that you bought it in good faith and give you your money back. If they did know it was a redial, and don't want to refund you...
    "A man of little significance"

  3. #53
    Master sean's Avatar
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    Under what actual circumstances are you prepared to name him?

  4. #54
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    How much did this watch cost exactly?

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Motman View Post
    Ahem. That saying is just so.........ancient.

    https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Cat...t_after_C_rule
    Well, it works with chief... 😀

  6. #56
    Master reggie747's Avatar
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    Are you gonna spill Jack or what ??

    50+ replies in a few hours and 95% say name him - what's the catalyst you're actually waiting for here ?

  7. #57
    Master Nigeyp's Avatar
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    ive not read the op, but the title! on a forum...strictly no. You have no evidence only a supposition of a claim. If you wish to bring it to law and seek damages... the seller to you may not even be at fault, causing a naming in this environment to be very unwise. Rules of evidence need to be in place. Don't prejudice yourself, don't make assumptions, don't go off what you think to be right...the Law and justice are two different things. Gather the evidence first, have the watch inspected and declared in expert independent opinion to be a fake, then go to law...do not put yourself in a position of libel by writing it on here. Stop go away and gather your evidence. Then go to Law.

  8. #58
    Journeyman Mathif's Avatar
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    He is not trying to be difficult yeah right. You can contact the trading standards they 'll reach out to him for selling fakes and not doing anything about it even when challenged...

    I had a similar experience at CEX recently they refunded me after about a month... they do take selling fake seriously.

    Fe


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  9. #59
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    I don't agree that naming the dealer would open the OP to liabilities. Like mentioned before, its only defamation if flasehood is involved. You are simply representing your view of events as they unfolded - and you have hard evidence in the form of your email exchange. If you wanted to be safe, I would remove the "fake" from the thread title. Refurbished/reotuched is not fake - even if it destroys the value in the eyes of collectors.

    Whilst most people here will agree the seller SHOULD refund the watch, he isn't under any obligation to unless he made the representation that the watch was all original and not retouched. When dealing with secondhand goods, unless the seller specifies otherwise, a general assumption of imperfect condition will exist. Where there is opportunity to inspect, it also provides the argument for the seller that the buyer relied on their own inspection. This argument can be refuted by evidence that the buyer relied on the seller's expertise or representation, but it doesn't seem from your email exchange that this is the case.

    Obviously we as onlookers don't have all the facts so everything is conjecture.

  10. #60
    Master Yorkshiremadmick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FazerBoy View Post
    I before E, except after C...

    Donít they teach that in school anymore? What is the world coming to?
    Or how about
    thereís and theirs Hahahaha



    Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

  11. #61
    Grand Master SimonK's Avatar
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    Go to law..., get a solicitor..., seek legal advice... It's a forty quid watch, or that's what it would have cost from the Indian who made it and sold it on Ebay, possibly to the antique dealer or the person he took it in from.

  12. #62
    Master Kirk280's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by number2 View Post
    This is like 'pulling teeth'.
    Hello. I can see you.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimbobIJones View Post
    I don't agree that naming the dealer would open the OP to liabilities. Like mentioned before, its only defamation if flasehood is involved.
    The topic title says he was sold a fake watch.

    The dealer states it's a real watch that's had the face re-done at some point, that is not a fake.

    In the other thread one of the posters stated it's a fake movement. Nothing wrong with sharing experience of what you consider bad customer service but I think you'd want to be sure it is actually a fake before naming otherwise you could end up in hot water.
    Last edited by wombleh; 15th October 2018 at 22:14.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by wombleh View Post
    In the other thread one of the posters stated it's a fake movement. I think you'd want to be sure on that before naming otherwise you could end up in hot water.
    I'm pretty sure it's me you're misquoting here. I stated it's "the vintage fakers movement of choice". Big difference.

  15. #65
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    Isnít the dial at least a fake?


    If my Seiko said Sieko on the dial I would think it a fake.

  16. #66
    In most online arenas such as Amazon and TripAdvisor we leave reviews on our buying experience. A classic example is a 'bad meal' - this is highly subjective yet the restaurant can't sue us for hurting their reputation.

    You've had an unsavoury experience here and should share who was involved. I don't see it any different from a review personally.

  17. #67
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    This thread does not deliver.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lampoc View Post
    I'm pretty sure it's me you're misquoting here. I stated it's "the vintage fakers movement of choice". Big difference.
    Ah sorry, you are quite right, my apologies. In that case I definitely wouldn't start shouting that they're selling fakes!

  19. #69
    Master MakeColdplayHistory's Avatar
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    Yes, you should name him. I would not want to buy anything from this dealer and would appreciate the warning.
    'H&V' is the sub forum to name him in.
    If you want your money back (maybe for the principle rather than the cash), consider using MCOL.

  20. #70
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    I don't even want to know now, I'm bored. Good day.

  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by bwest76 View Post
    Isnít the dial at least a fake?


    If my Seiko said Sieko on the dial I would think it a fake.
    Why? Maybe just repainted.

  22. #72
    Grand Master Raffe's Avatar
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    If only the TZ Voice of Reasonô would enlighten us with their views...
    Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.

  23. #73
    Grand Master Chris_in_the_UK's Avatar
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    For £40 I am not sure I would bother with the dialogue.

    Personally I would just leave some smelly feedback and voice my dissatisfaction with the situation.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyp View Post
    In most online arenas such as Amazon and TripAdvisor we leave reviews on our buying experience. A classic example is a 'bad meal' - this is highly subjective yet the restaurant can't sue us for hurting their reputation.

    You've had an unsavoury experience here and should share who was involved. I don't see it any different from a review personally.
    That ( bib ) is not true! They most certainly can! They simply chose not to. History has proved it is very unwise for large companies to persue legal action against "the little guy". Even if they win, the publicity is usualy a PR disaster. McDonalds, Pilsbury, KFC, Coca Cola, have all won or lost cases... made no difference, the results are always a PR disaster & end up with falling sales.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chabsy View Post
    This thread does not deliver.
    I think it seems that is the point, this sort of "outing" nonsense is best left to facebook.

  26. #76
    Good morning all and thanks for all your views on this which are appreciated. I am going to sit on it for a couple of days and will reread all your posts.

    Can I suggest that for the moment we consider this thread closed.

    The cost was not great and for those who have asked it was £125. Yes I now know they are on ebay for £40ish!

    Thanks again, Jack

  27. #77
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    Why not just tell us where you got the watch from you donít have to say anything else.itís that simple.

  28. #78
    Yeah Iím really confused by this thread.

    Youíve clearly requested the view of the forum to disclose the identify of this dealer or not. The forum has unanimously agreed that you should, yet you continue to frustrate by not doing so, and then insist that the thread should be considered closed! If you really care to ensure that no one else falls foul of such a dealer, then surely itís in everyoneís benefit to reveal. Itís really not a big deal.

    As mentioned earlier, we live in a consumer opinion driven world, of course youíre not at any sort of risk of being sued by airing your experiences, come on!

  29. #79
    Master MakeColdplayHistory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Norman View Post
    Can I suggest that for the moment we consider this thread closed.
    You can indeed.

  30. #80
    Master bobbee's Avatar
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    The watch IS a fake.
    The ST96 movement is used by Indian fakers on eBay for Oris, LeCoultre, Favre-Leuba, Sandoz, etc. etc.
    Check out those brands on eBay, and look at various examples for sale from India and you will see those same movements being used, and often the stem retaining screw is missing like yours.

    Example of a fake Oris: https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/aA0AA...sf/s-l1600.jpg

    This is what you should be finding in a real F-L hand winder: https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/vgMAA...tF/s-l1600.jpg

  31. #81
    Master PreacherCain's Avatar
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    Personally Iíd appreciate knowing the sellerís identity, if only to avoid somewhere with the most flexible and unsatisfactory approach to customer service!

    That said, I understand why the OP is reticent given the number of people whoíve posted extensive accounts of potential exposure to libel action... Also, letís face it, he missed the (blatant) mis-spelling on the dial, too, when Iíd have expected that to stand out like the generative organs on a bulldog.

  32. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovewatches108 View Post
    Yeah Iím really confused by this thread.

    Youíve clearly requested the view of the forum to disclose the identify of this dealer or not. The forum has unanimously agreed that you should, yet you continue to frustrate by not doing so, and then insist that the thread should be considered closed! If you really care to ensure that no one else falls foul of such a dealer, then surely itís in everyoneís benefit to reveal. Itís really not a big deal.

    As mentioned earlier, we live in a consumer opinion driven world, of course youíre not at any sort of risk of being sued by airing your experiences, come on!
    Totally agree, I got my pitchfork out of the loft and now no action?? Really disappointed.

  33. #83
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    Maybe the OP can just Ďmis-spellí the dealers name a little...

  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Norman View Post
    I can assure you that my intention in posting this thread was not as a means to pressure the dealer into a refund. In any case I have written the cost of the watch off against the experience.

    As you can see from the dates in the post almost three weeks have elapsed since I received the watch back and I could have used the forum for leverage during the initial correspondence if that what my intention.

    It was kevkojak's suggestion that I direct him to this thread and I have now done this. I will be happy to post his response.

    I have already spent far too much time on what was a low value purchase but it keeps niggling me that he is probably continuing to sell these fakes.


    I did, and I stand by it.
    After reading a bit more on this I have a better understanding of the situation - the chap isn't a jeweller or watch dealer, he's a bric-a-brac *ahem* "antique" dealer in a small town. Most small towns have them, my local one had a shelf full of fake Hublot and Breitling watches until being told it was illegal to sell them and having his "stock" removed by trading standards or the police.

    I predict (and yes, I am probably opening myself up to 25 years of law-suits here if the loopy legal brigade are anything to go by...) that he's seen these watches cheap on ebay, bought a load up and tripled the price hoping no-one notices they are moody.
    Most regular folk wouldn't know or care that it's not an original example, but in this case he sold one to a watch collector and he's got a sweat on about refunding a days takings.

    Name him, don't name him - it doesn't matter on TZUK as there will probably be no knock-on effect from the watch collecting community. Still, he needs kicking into touch so a call or email to trading standards would probably be on my list. If you want to cause him trouble (I probably would over £120 but not if it was getting me worked up) then spread this message across any facebook, twitter and google review pages he's on. He sold you a POS watch and won't refund, he deserves it.

    I don't understand all the pussy-footing around on this thread. He's either had you over with a watch he knew was iffy or he doesn't know enough about vintage watches to be selling them.

  35. #85
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    Just get on with it and name them!

    Getting bored now...

  36. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deeez Nuuutz View Post
    Just get on with it and name them!

    Getting bored now...
    Maybe the OP thinks that the seller will put this right as he does not want to be named and shamed on a public forum.

  37. #87
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    Have I missed a picture of the offending watch ?!
    Honestly its very simple , the dealer being a so called professional should of spotted the mis print and secondly checked the watch out to be genuine before he/she sold it .
    Just go to small claims court after giving him 14 days to make good by refund as you requested .
    I guess you are Uk so its Moneyclaims online , very easy and if your case is structured correctly you shouldnt loose. But for £125 is it worth it ?
    dealer sounds like somebody to bee avoided so name and shaming is what we are waiting for !

  38. #88
    Master bobbee's Avatar
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  39. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomaitch View Post
    dealer sounds like somebody to bee avoided so name and shaming is what we are waiting for !
    this

  40. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Watchdude View Post
    Maybe the OP thinks that the seller will put this right as he does not want to be named and shamed on a public forum.
    Not relevant IMO. OP was sold a fake by a dealer = name and shame.

    It is that simple. Irrespective of the dealer "making it right", there's nothing right about selling a fake in the first place

  41. #91
    Ok, how about this for satisfaction? The dealer has stated numerous times that it is not a fake. He's had it inspected. He's selling it as genuine, he's certain of it. How about you give him two choices. He refunds the money or he returns the watch to you, his choice. Once it's in your hands you have it assessed by proper experts and then read his horoscope? I would suggest you get photos of the original watch from him before he sends it, so he can't accuse you of switching it.

  42. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Watchdude View Post
    Totally agree, I got my pitchfork out of the loft and now no action?? Really disappointed.
    My torch burnt out

  43. #93
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    In answer to the title of the thread...'yes'!

  44. #94
    Master pacifichrono's Avatar
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    If I'm buying a vintage watch and the seller's photo of the dial is this:



    ...I DESERVE to get stuck with it!

    Look, the dealer is not selling a "fake" watch - - it's a genuine Favre-Leuba watch. But, like 90% of these F-Ls in the marketplace, the dial has been redone. Unfortunately, the person who performed this redial misspelled the model name.

    If a vintage watch buyer does not notice such a glaring mistake before purchasing, too bad for the buyer. The watch is genuine with a refinished dial that would be obvious to a school child.

  45. #95
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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by bobbee View Post
    The watch IS a fake.
    The ST96 movement is used by Indian fakers on eBay for Oris, LeCoultre, Favre-Leuba, Sandoz, etc. etc.
    Check out those brands on eBay, and look at various examples for sale from India and you will see those same movements being used, and often the stem retaining screw is missing like yours.

    Example of a fake Oris: https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/aA0AA...sf/s-l1600.jpg

    This is what you should be finding in a real F-L hand winder: https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/vgMAA...tF/s-l1600.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by pacifichrono View Post
    If I'm buying a vintage watch and the seller's photo of the dial is this:



    ...I DESERVE to get stuck with it!

    Look, the dealer is not selling a "fake" watch - - it's a genuine Favre-Leuba watch. But, like 90% of these F-Ls in the marketplace, the dial has been redone. Unfortunately, the person who performed this redial misspelled the model name.

    If a vintage watch buyer does not notice such a glaring mistake before purchasing, too bad for the buyer. The watch is genuine with a refinished dial that would be obvious to a school child.

    Thatís cleared that up then...

  46. #96
    Master bobbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jameswrx View Post
    That’s cleared that up then...
    Tom is wrong, the watch movement is not one used in genuine F-L watches.

    Here is the movement, a typical one used by Indian fakers. Note the lack of a stem retaining screw, often seen in fakes. Also the crappy spacer, F-L use solid quality spacers.



    Last edited by bobbee; 16th October 2018 at 18:34.

  47. #97
    Master pacifichrono's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbee View Post
    Tom is wrong, the watch movement is not one used in genuine F-L watches.

    Here is the movement, a typical one used by Indian fakers. Note the lack of a stem retaining screw, often seen in fakes. Also the crappy spacer, F-L use solid quality spacers.



    I am no expert on movements. If this is, in fact, not a genuine F-L movement, then I stand corrected. Thank you, bobbee.

  48. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacifichrono View Post
    I am no expert on movements. If this is, in fact, not a genuine F-L movement, then I stand corrected. Thank you, bobbee.
    It is a fake. That movement is often seen as said above in fakes and the movement spacer is the big giveaway. Absolute junk those pressed spacers and they couldn't even be bothered to put the movement clamp screws in.

    I see these lots, as said they are often from India Thailand and the like, countries that have cheap labor.

  49. #99
    Master bobbee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacifichrono View Post
    I am no expert on movements. If this is, in fact, not a genuine F-L movement, then I stand corrected. Thank you, bobbee.
    No worries Tom, anyone can be caught out. What about the guys who never took a case back off in their lives?

    Here is the movement in my duo-power, often found in the Sea Chief too. twin barrels for accuracy.

    http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-...avre-Leuba_250

    Link to F-L movements in Ranfft.

    http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-...ranfft&2&2uswk

    No ST96's!
    Last edited by bobbee; 16th October 2018 at 19:03.

  50. #100
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    Wheres that Carrot gone

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