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Thread: Pondering on Grand Seiko Value for money

  1. #1
    Grand Master ryanb741's Avatar
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    Pondering on Grand Seiko Value for money

    I think it's fairly universally accepted round these parts that GS provide exceptional value for money when considered in the context of hand finishing, attention to detail etc. For around £5k the level of craftsmanship isn't seen from Swiss brands until you are spending considerably north of £10k.

    I'd like to understand how this is. Japan has very high wages so it's not as if these skilled craftsmen and women are being paid materially less than their Swiss counterparts. So how can GS provide such value unless these are loss leaders (or unless the Swiss are making massive net margins on each piece sold)
    Last edited by ryanb741; 26th September 2018 at 12:16.

  2. #2
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    Interesting question posed. As a owner of both these brands, the quality of GS finishing is obvious. I would tend to think that the margins are extraordinary in luxury products and I'm sure Rolex's are significant - is there a way to find out by looking at annual reports of other listed luxury brands etc? I know in fashion, the cost price of manufacturing clothes are less than 10%. As for Seiko manufacturing costs themselves, the fact they can make decent watches for sale at hundreds of pounds seems to confirm the margins are extraordinary.

    Why they charge less than Rolex is probably a lot to do with marketing. Looking at the amount of Rolex advertising in magazines, sports events suggest they spend an enormous amount on marketing compared to that of Seiko / Grand Seiko. Maybe this will change but I'd have thought Rolex price their products to reflect this.

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    Movement finishing is actually pretty average. At Rolex level. I think that is why they can keep the price reasonable.

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    Grand Master Sinnlover's Avatar
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    I think the well run Swiss manufacturers are making huge margins. lf profits were not where they wanted them to be, they would not restrict supply on the most popular models. If the margins were poor you would see everyone’s ‘favourite’ brand ramping up production of divers and chronographs.

    I think Grand Seiko produce fewer watches at a mostly lower price bracket for a number of reasons:

    Most outside of our small bubble of interest have never heard of them
    Seiko are sold on every high street in the land and as such as seen by most ‘normal’ persons to be a obtainable product. (Like an M&S suit)
    They are not an aspirational brand. Ask the man in the street (and lots of Watch fans I would guess) would you spend 5k on a Seiko or Rolex, I would guess 9/10 would say Rolex.
    Their design language is ‘challenging’ for the average western buyer. The majority of the watches are not lookers even though they are fantastically engineered. If you don’t like the look of something you tend not to buy it.
    I should stress if you asked me if I wanted a Rolex sub or a Grand Seiko diver I would be the 1 in 10 to say give me the GS.

  5. #5
    Salaries in Japan are much lower than Switzerland. In USD terms, $78k vs. about $45k

    https://www.thelocal.ch/20180515/thi...in-switzerland
    https://resources.realestate.co.jp/l...ccupation-age/

  6. #6
    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
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    I've never noticed Grand Seiko sponsoring events, I'm thinking of Le Mans and Wimbledon (I'm sure there are more), where you see Rolex rather a lot. And then there are the personal sponsorship deals and general advertising. And that's probably just a small part of it. If everyone wanted to buy a GS then they could perhaps charge the money, limit the supply and so on. I honestly can't see many non-WIS buying a GS when they could buy an Omega, Rolex or whatever, that their friends will see and be impressed by. I am wearing a GS now and have mostly stopped wearing my Rolex, I'd much rather have something on my wrist that isn't a brand name, almost the opposite in that no one aspires to wearing a Seiko. I also find how Rolex operates distasteful, GS is much more subtle and perhaps that's the market they're aiming for.
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    Not too sure that, here in the UK, prices are much lower than Rolex. Take a typical hi-beat three-hander, at Jura £5,500. Similar price to a 41mm Datejust, more than a 39mm OP or Explorer One. The 'sports ' divers cost more than a Sub, in some cases more than a 43mm Sea Dweller.
    GS may have a slight advantage in finishing, but I find the Rolex movements tend to be a little more precise, the guarantee is longer and the resale value rather stronger; servicing is easier too.
    Add that lot together, plus availability on the high street, and Rolex don't need to worry. They're, overall, a far stronger brand. And will be cheaper to own in the long term.
    Incidentally, I like GS, but they need to try harder. Start with a 5 year guarantee.
    Last edited by paskinner; 26th September 2018 at 13:25.

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    Production costs are probably more in Switzerland, but not significantly so to affect unit costs that much.

    Pretty sure pricing bears little relationship to production costs anywhere in the luxury watch market. I seem to recall seeing that a watch with a generic ETA movement costs around £300 to make.

    Unless you're up in the completely hand built range like Roger Smith or multiple complications with low volume, vast swathes of the process are automated, with only final assembly being labour-intensive. There's a video somewhere of a Panerai being built in the factory which demonstrates this nicely and Rolex are pretty much certain to have refined that kind of thing much further given the length of time they've been producing some movements/models.

  9. #9
    Could it also be because of the nature of Seiko itself? They have factories across Asia churning out millions of cheap watches. Presumably the profits made from these can help keep the costs of some of their higher end stuff down?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy100 View Post
    I've never noticed Grand Seiko sponsoring events, I'm thinking of Le Mans and Wimbledon (I'm sure there are more), where you see Rolex rather a lot.
    This may have a lot to do with it - for other companies, they need a huge marketing campaign. But for GS, the brand essentially is a marketing campaign, for the wider Seiko brand. While they've acknowledged that GS needs to be a 'separate' brand to function in the west, it still says Seiko on the dial, and is sold in Seiko boutiques alongside other Seiko watches. You have to wonder if establishing GS as in 'independent brand' to Seiko meant anything more than changing the logo - the same people make them in the same factories and presumably with the same management team. Having said that, while it could be a loss leader in the short term or a marketing exercise for Seiko, they do still want GS to turn a profit or at least pay for itself in the long run, and that has meant investing in boutiques and producing advertising. But really not a lot compared to other brands. I've been told to expect a big push but it has yet to materialise.

    It's not as if they're all that cheap anyway, certainly not at the inflated prices charged in this country, perhaps more so in their own currency. You could argue that they're good value compared to a model or brand of your choice, but it would be the start of a lively discussion / argument. In any case, like Omega, they're less interested in selling themselves on value now and would probably rather charge the same as everyone else if they can, it never works to compete on price in the luxury market. But before they can do that, they have to continue to invest in the boutique and servicing network, have a cheaper and local refinishing option without them being sent to Japan, create new and thinner automatics (a problem Omega have already started to address), and raise brand awareness. By the time they've done all that I wouldn't be surprised if the price is much the same as any other similar watch.

  11. #11
    I now own two GS, and can only compare it to two Rolex models (16610 and 16570) and in terms of dial finishing, the GS are worlds ahead. It's not that Rolex are in any way bad or shoddy at all, it's just there's a heck of a lot more work gone in to the mirror finishing and faceting of the applied markers and hands on the GS models. Time keeping is also leagues ahead, though that is comparing Spring Drive to automatics, so not fair at all!

    I'd wager marketing is indeed a big factor in cost difference, and also the fact that Rolex can simply charge more (for arguably less) as they are Rolex. I can't foresee a time when GS will ever be mentioned by the general public as a brand, let alone a luxury watch brand.

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    Pondering on Grand Seiko Value for money

    Yes, comparing the quartz-based spring drive to a mechanical watch doesn't make much sense. Chalk and cheese. Inevitably, experiences will vary, but I have found modern Rolex models to be more consistently accurate than their mechanical equivalents in the GS range.Hardly surprising as GS don't claim a 'plus or minus two-second' precision.
    I'm not truly convinced about some of the claims of superior finishing. My 41mm Datejust, with Jubilee bracelet and rhodium dial is easily the equal of any GS I've owned. Just compare a Jubilee bracelet with the workmanlike bracelets from GS.
    For me, the nicest GS models are the basic quartz models. Lovely things and one of my all-time favourites. That, and spring-drive, are the stars for me.

    And from Rolex
    Last edited by paskinner; 26th September 2018 at 15:23.

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    Grand Master ryanb741's Avatar
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    Would be interesting to see what GS you are basing the comparison with but I have a DJ 41 and a GS Snowflake and the GS bracelet is miles better than the jubilee. Not even close. The different facets, the fact that each link is made of 5 separate parts with different finishes, the fact they've even gone to the effort of hand polishing the ends of each link. It's a massive difference in quality. I'll give you the fact that the Oyster clasps are better mind you. Plus the easy adjust on the Rolex bracelets. We aren't saying GS is better as a watch overall what we are saying is that the handcrafted finishing and attention to detail which is where one would assume the labour costs mount up is worlds apart from what the Swiss do at around £15k and under. And the curiosity lies around how this can be

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    Master IAmATeaf's Avatar
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    Isn't some of this due to their culture? I briefly worked with a team in Japan (yawn boring IT stuff) and they all were extra committed to their work and hardly ever went home from what I witnessed. So they produce with their hearts and minds to the utmost of their ability, "that will do" is probably not a phrase they know or understand.

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    Grand Master seikopath's Avatar
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    I think it's pretty easy to understand.

    Think of the Swiss like dwarves in the LOTR

    The Japanese are more like the elves.
    Good luck everybody. Have a good one.

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    Sometimes it's not easy to agree; certainly, having also owned both, I view the Rolex as the better bracelet. As for 'value'....that's also subjective (of course). But you have to consider issues such as the guaranteed precision of Rolex, the far longer guarantee, the easier servicing . That is all part of the quality of a brand.
    The heavily industrial process used by Rolex isn't a weakness, it's a great strength. That massive investment in technology, is what enables incredible precision and consistency.
    As always, everyone makes up their own mind, but I see nothing in Grand Seiko to indicate bigger production costs or greater, overall, quality.

  17. #17
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    Pondering on Grand Seiko Value for money

    Marketing basically. Most swiss watches have humongous marketing costs just look at the monthly events that are hosted with celebs parties and watch sites like Hodinkee invited to stay at top hotels etc. This all costs money.

    Having said that the “value” aspect has greatly diminished over the years for GS. Prices have increased somewhat. For me the greatest area that the GS falls behind is movement design architecture an technology. (let’s ignore the pseudo quartz SD).

    Take a look at most GS movements and you will quickly realise how thick they are compared to the svelte but extremely durable and accurate Rolex ones. This is an area where rolex truly excels and GS still has a lot of catching up to do. Case and hand finishing on the GS is superior to that of Rolex and probably close to that of say Vacheron and AP. That is probably where you get the “value” from GS.

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    Last edited by kaiserphoenix; 26th September 2018 at 16:38.

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    Yes, and the nice bit is that you can get much of that great finishing on the cheapest (sorry, least expensive) 061 quartz. Somehow, it's just a pleasure to wear. My partner has grabbed it, and wears it more often than her Rolex. And it looks great on her, even at 37mm. Good 'unisex' size, works for both.

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    I'd imagine one factor is that GS sales are still overwhelmingly domestic and, since nowadays anyone can buy direct from that market, it'll be those prices that drive their international pricing.

    Many have mentioned Rolex's marketing costs but, ultimately, all that spend is just to allow them to build up their brand value. I don't think there's any point looking for a justification for price difference in terms of quality or, indeed, anything quantifiable. It's all a question of how much you can persuade people the brand is worth. With this sort of luxury product going for, what, 10-15x cost, there's plenty of slack. Perhaps it's just that Rolex can flog theirs for 14x while GS only manage 10x.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by paskinner View Post
    Yes, and the nice bit is that you can get much of that great finishing on the cheapest (sorry, least expensive) 061 quartz.
    I'd have to agree i have the SBGV 245 ...amazing quality !.(will keep trying to post pics )

  21. #21
    Master mindforge's Avatar
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    It used to seem that GS was a halo brand for Seiko to demonstrate what they can do and have pride in being able to do it. This seems to have changed now with the boutique in London and other European cities, the logo change and seeing huge GS adverts on the tube. This must lead to some people becoming aware of the brand and the prices have increased too. Perhaps not the bargain they once were new, fortunately they still are on the second hand market.

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    Master Yorkshiremadmick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seikopath View Post
    I think it's pretty easy to understand.

    Think of the Swiss like dwarves in the LOTR

    The Japanese are more like the elves.
    Thanks for that!!!!!
    Just sprayed my Yorkshire Tea ☕️



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    Quote Originally Posted by paskinner View Post
    What model is this please?

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deeez Nuuutz View Post
    What model is this please?

    Thanks
    That's the SBGX061, and one just popped up on SC for a bargaintastic price! I'd snap it up if it weren't for a recent incoming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KingKitega View Post
    That's the SBGX061, and one just popped up on SC for a bargaintastic price! I'd snap it up if it weren't for a recent incoming.

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    Sorry to be pedantic, but that's a SBGX261G - new style logo.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itsguy View Post
    Sorry to be pedantic, but that's a SBGX261G - new style logo.
    You are indeed correct. Apologies. Everything else bar the new branding is the same compared to the 061.

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    Last edited by KingKitega; 27th September 2018 at 15:47.

  27. #27
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    Thanks guys!

    That’s why I asked cause the one on SC had the older style dial.

    What’s the difference between the SBGX261 & SBGX261G ?
    Last edited by Deeez Nuuutz; 27th September 2018 at 15:31.

  28. #28
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    Pondering on Grand Seiko Value for money

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  29. #29
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    Grand Seiko Spring Drive SBGA011 - having recently got a hold of one of these (thanks Ryan) I have to say it’s unbelievable value for money.

    I have had this running now for a week and it has not lost a second, zero, nothing. It has been on the wrist for most of that time (excluding nighttime) and in the box whilst I enjoyed two other watches- let’s say 12h, 5 out of 7 days. No change. The 9R65, with 72 hour power reserve, amazing.

    The finish is stunning. Case, strap and polish amazing. The dial - I know it’s generally compared to that of freshly fallen snow, it’s nicer than that. Hands and applied markers have a mirror finish that you can’t stop looking at.

    It’s super comfortable, light and pretty scratch resistant (I am unintentionally trying to scratch it)

    Overall a lovely example of how to do it and Its right up there with my favourites.

    In summary great value for money and looks and feels much more expensive.

    If you haven’t give a GS a go.

    Fred


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  30. #30
    Journeyman Gareth.hayes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mindforge View Post
    It used to seem that GS was a halo brand for Seiko to demonstrate what they can do and have pride in being able to do it. This seems to have changed now with the boutique in London and other European cities, the logo change and seeing huge GS adverts on the tube. This must lead to some people becoming aware of the brand and the prices have increased too. Perhaps not the bargain they once were new, fortunately they still are on the second hand market.
    The snow flake dial is a beauty.


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  31. #31
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    Pondering on Grand Seiko Value for money

    Quote Originally Posted by Itsguy View Post
    Sorry to be pedantic, but that's a SBGX261G - new style logo.
    My partner has been wearing it quite a lot....and it's in competition with some other very good watches she owns ; it's 37mm and she is a small woman, but it looks great on her wrist.



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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredamens View Post
    Grand Seiko Spring Drive SBGA011 - having recently got a hold of one of these (thanks Ryan) I have to say it’s unbelievable value for money.

    I have had this running now for a week and it has not lost a second, zero, nothing. It has been on the wrist for most of that time (excluding nighttime) and in the box whilst I enjoyed two other watches- let’s say 12h, 5 out of 7 days. No change. The 9R65, with 72 hour power reserve, amazing.

    The finish is stunning. Case, strap and polish amazing. The dial - I know it’s generally compared to that of freshly fallen snow, it’s nicer than that. Hands and applied markers have a mirror finish that you can’t stop looking at.

    It’s super comfortable, light and pretty scratch resistant (I am unintentionally trying to scratch it)

    Overall a lovely example of how to do it and Its right up there with my favourites.

    In summary great value for money and looks and feels much more expensive.

    If you haven’t give a GS a go.

    Fred


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    I mean the spring drive uses a quartz crystal and integrated circuit, i would expect the accuracy to be tops and not really an “andvantage” per se. Don’t wanna start a debate about mechanical vs SD vs quartz or anything.


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  33. #33
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    Yes, of course the spring-drive is accurate. It's quartz regulated. However it feels pretty 'mechanical' and doesn't need anything except the normal wrist movement. I like them, but the power reserve spoils the dial for me, and it doesn't need one.

  34. #34
    Grand Master RustyBin5's Avatar
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    Just saw this and have to say I just love the look of it

  35. #35
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    I saw a real nice HD video of some grand Seiko’s last night on YT and there was a maroon dial one, absolutely unbelievable looking quality. I’ve never seen such a high quality look at one like that, I’ll see if I can find the video (was just some guy chatting about his watches)

  36. #36
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    While we're on the subject, hard not to want a go with this USA only limited edition. Great hi-beat style shape, sensible 40mm size, I could get used to Spring Drive for this one. Probably best not to think about the VFM though, 20 only and platinum dialled.


  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanb741 View Post
    I think it's fairly universally accepted round these parts that GS provide exceptional value for money when considered in the context of hand finishing, attention to detail etc ...
    Do they, though?

    GS movement finishing is by machine. The Japanese don't do anglage, perlage et cetera.

    GS case & dial work is by machine and hand-finished (to a very high standard), but includes no guillochage, for example: such decoration is stamped.

    The results are beautiful to Japanese and some non-Japanese eyes, but would not, for example, achieve poincon de ... approval in Switzerland.

    The reality is, surely, that GS are in many ways very good watches, indeed, but are not magic or sprinkled with fairy-dust.

    And 100% sure, Seiko doesn't lose money making them. The Japanese don't do that.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by paskinner View Post
    Yes, of course the spring-drive is accurate. It's quartz regulated. However it feels pretty 'mechanical' and doesn't need anything except the normal wrist movement. I like them, but the power reserve spoils the dial for me, and it doesn't need one.
    Agreed, I'd buy one without a power reserve.

  39. #39
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    This post has made me want one!

  40. #40
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    Me too. So much so that I went to the London boutique this week. I’m on the verge of freeing up some cash for a HAQ.


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  41. #41
    Journeyman Mathif's Avatar
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    Grand Seiko are neat and stunning


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  42. #42
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    I just think GS are playing the long game, and will probably ramp up their advertising once they've got some more traction in the industry.

    Think about it. How many in the 'watch world' were even thinking about (or aware of) GS / Credor perhaps 10, or even 5 years ago? Now we're all talking about them. Or at least are well aware of them.

    It seems the Swiss may have a battle on two fronts these days (Japan and Germany) but I don't think they'll lose the war as the big Swiss brands have too much ingrained presence in the public psych, but I reckon in a few more years German and Japanese high end watch brands will be taking an increasingly sizeable bite out of the Swiss cherry.

    Something they're probably not used to.

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    Last edited by WillHarris2306; 14th October 2018 at 09:27.

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itsguy View Post
    the same people make them in the same factories and presumably with the same management team.
    With the greatest of respect i seriously doubt that.

    I'm not sure where i read it but i recall reading that GS Zaratsu case finishers have to train for a minimum of 3 years just to do that one job, and that there are actually only 5 or so people that can actually do it. Seiko UK can now service GS's (so they told me) but for case refinishing it has to go back to Japan.
    Last edited by WillHarris2306; 14th October 2018 at 05:58.

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