This might whip up some heat on here and plenty of anti cyclist comments, but I just wanted to post these two links which demonstrate the woefully inadequate sentencing that seems to occur when cyclists are killed on the roads..
https://road.cc/content/news/249914-...d-fife-cyclist
In this case in the Fife, the overtake manoeuvre was described as 'dangerous' yet the charge was only 'careless driving' ....
In this case the driver got punished for driving home with a defective windscreen and bumper but received no punishment for taking a life;
https://road.cc/content/news/249854-...ken-windscreen...
I have seen comments on here from some motorcyclists that cyclist's ride like prats or deserve what's known as a 'close pass' - I find this especially hard to take as we are both vulnerable on the roads & subjected to the 'SMIDSY' response when drivers pull out on us from junctions and side roads; 'sorry mate I didn't see you'...
I will not be able to repond to posts as I'm getting the train up to London to take part in this demo;
http://www.cyclesheffield.org.uk/201...13th-oct-2018/
Just leave you with this chilling stat;
'over a thousand people killed cycling on our roads in the last decade'
When cyclists learn the highway code, stop running red lights, stop undertaking larger vehicles and generally stop acting like they are in a car whilst only protected by skin and bone, drivers might have more sympathy. I know drivers and pedestrians are also to blame, but jeez, the things I see cyclists do in London doesn't make me surprised that cyclists die.
Yes, I do think cyclists do themselves no favours by running red lights. It’s normally the ones in all the gear too, you know, the shouty ones.
Originally Posted by Man of Kent
Sorry to say but I agree with this, I speak as a pedestrian, cyclist, motor cyclist, and car driver, and out of those categories remembering that I live in a seaside resort by far the worst standard of road use is cyclists. The highway code appears a complete mystery to them and those lights on poles are obviously part of the seaside decorations. At school in the 50's we had compulsory cycle education given by the Police
I bet that in the Venn diagram of
(A) cyclists
the overlap between
(B) cyclists who annoy you
and
(C) cyclists who die cycling
is as good as non-existent.
Most murders committed in the UK are committed by men. To what degree should the male population in general be punished for these murders?
Just treat them for what they are, an unpredictable traffic hazard. It cost nowt to give a fellow and more vulnerable (even if they disregard their own safety) road user an extra space and time. Win win.
Fas est ab hoste doceri
Even when cyclists don't run red lights they do themselves no favours where I live by pushing to the front of the queue at traffic lights. There is a particular road that is tricky to safely overtake cyclists on, yet it happens all the time you show them the correct courtesy to eventually safely overtake and for them to then push past the traffic at the next lights and over a stretch of a few miles you might up overtaking the same cyclist 3+ times.
This is a two-way thing, yes some motorists are not careful enough with cyclists but you have to be blind not to see that cyclists often do not help themselves.
New thread: “cyclists- stop intimidating/injuring/killing pedestrians”.
The second article says he was cleared of any blame for the collision? Why would he be sentenced when there's n no blame?
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All users of the road have a responsibility to behave in a safe and reasonable manner... and that does include those cyclists who seem to assume they are immune to both the Highway Code and broken bones, or worse.
I use a car, and ride a bike and like to think of myself as equally responsible in both situations, but ultimately if I put my cycle into a dangerous position I am guaranteed to come off worse than the car, so I take extra care as I have a duty of care to myself, and a fear of pain.
Sadly have to agree with this, some don't seem to have much/any sense of self preservation, in a perfect world all road users would display courtesy and consideration. Alas the world's not perfect and as lycra and a push bike helmet isn't an iron man suit common sense suggests cycling defensively especially in London and other heavily congested places should be the default setting.
Fairly sure back in day, nearly 40 years ago in my case, the cycling proficiency test administered by a police man did include awareness of other road users, signs, etc.
I’m sure most cyclists are fine. There are certainly a lot over here - but...
Some are just (or appear to be) angry and entitled every time they go out.
I cycle not as much as I used to. Two people I’ve known have been killed cycling on local roads - and knowing them I’m pretty sure they weren’t riding like dicks.
To think the IOM had to actually restrict cyclist from riding over the mountain during the TT fortnight, because some of them would still think it would be a good idea to ride over the mountain on a pushbike, when bikes and cars routinely ride over it all day long at over 100mph - some do not have enough sense to be allowed on the roads with other traffic imho - but I stress it seems to be a small minority.
I was held up the other day by three cyclist side by side at the front of a line of traffic - they were not oblivious, knew exactly what they were doing, or thought they were doing (as I’m sure they felt they were only taking up the space of one vehicle - that’s one vehicle traveling between 15-20mph in 30-50 zones). When I’m sure all they really achieved was to create more resentment from some other road users that previously didn’t mind cyclists.
All road users should be more aware. I find riding a motorbike on a regular basis makes you pay a lot more attention - there should be additional observation elements within the driving tests to take account of more venerable road users, but additionally no cyclists should be allowed on the road until they have also taken some kind of test including how to interact correctly with other traffic.
Last edited by Omegamanic; 13th October 2018 at 10:37.
It's just a matter of time...
Absolutely - seem to think that their “moral high ground” will keep them safe ...........
a great percentage will cycle everywhere with music playing in their ears - so aren’t fully aware of what is happening around them, and while it is a tragedy for parents to lose a son/daughter under the wheels of a truck - it is absolute stupidity to cycle between at truck and the kerb in any situation, never mind at a junction!
Well done - how about addressing the point I’m trying to make about pitiful sentencing of killer drivers ?
Maybe I’m mistaken, but seems to me that because you’re held up in the Kent lanes for 10 minutes cyclist’ s have only themselves to blame when they get killed and the drivers get a slap on the wrist..
That case in Fife : the guy was doing nothing wrong, yet was hit head on by a car doing a dangerous overtake .. driver got a community sentence or order... guess that sounds pretty fair to you ?
Every day, when I’m driving home I see Some drivers driving like prats.. thing is , they are in a tonne of metal...
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I would have doubts about that outcome or ruling... I know you get some cycling ninjas , but in an urban environment you should still be able to see them if you’re not half blind...
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Perhaps this should be a compulsory experience for every driver who doesn't cycle regularly?
Fas est ab hoste doceri
Advert decoy post.
Fas est ab hoste doceri
Wholeheartedly agree with this, as usual in these situations it’s a few moronic plebs spoiling it for us reasonable folk
I ride both and the behaviour of people in cars, vans cars and riding bikes just beggars belief and I’m not surprised people die to be honest
I do 50k a year for business and the things I see just on motorways just defies logic sometimes
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Cars kill approx 400 pedestrians every year...
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Very good VDG , thanks
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I'm hugely respectful of cyclists on the road. I simply don't want them getting hurt because of my carelessness or frustration. However there is a grain of truth in what has been said on this thread, but probably as in many cases the few giving the many a bad name.
Last week I was driving to work at 6.30 when it was still dark on a 40 mph dual carriageway (for those that know Sheffield it is the one that runs past the new Sytner garage). The road is not fantastically lit and I did not see a cyclist until very late because he was wearing dark clothes and had no rear light - luckily the road was empty and I had space to move. I flashed him and he caught up with me at the next lights and asked me what the problem was. I politely explained that he had no rear lights and couldn't be seen, whereupon he told me he had a rear reflector and gave me a huge amount of abuse suggesting the problem was my eyesight and I shouldn't be on the road!
This event for me typifies for me what I see as a small but growing number of militant cyclists that are seemingly well educated but have a huge chip on their shoulders about car drivers.
Re the case in Fife:
The driver wished to enter a plea of guilty to 'causing death by careless driving' (no trial & fast-track to sentencing); however the COPFS decided to charge him with 'causing death by dangerous driving'.
He was tried on the more-serious charge & a jury found him not guilty of that, but guilty of 'causing death by careless driving'. I've no knowledge of what evidence was led in court, or what directions the judge gave the jury to send them towards their verdict.
Even the judge said, in his summation, that a finding of guilt on the 'dangerous driving' charge would have led to a prison sentence.
Perhaps it's not quite as straightforward a case as it may seem from the limited media reports?
Last edited by jwg663; 13th October 2018 at 11:24.
______
Jim.
It is not really possible to comment on the sentencing for this case without knowing the full facts. The judge was aware of them and must have thought the sentence appropriate to the circumstances.
I absolutely agree that the death toll is horrific and wish that all road users would act with more consideration for others.
Unfortunately the reality is that pedestrians and cyclists need to take more care as they will always come off worse in a collision with a car or larger vehicle - even if you were in the right you are still just as dead!
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Sure there are idiots on bikes, just as there are idiots in cars. The trouble is drivers seem to use that as a justification for behaving dangerously toward cyclists in general.
Both are permitted to use the roads, and both should have reasonable decency toward the other. The problem is when a cyclist behaves shoddily toward a driver, it will be an inconvenience. In the reverse case the cyclist may well die or end up badly injured or disabled.
For drivers not used to cycling, you should try it - 'to understand all is to forgive all', and all that. I've more or less given up cycling anywhere other than countryside, as it just gets ever more dangerous by the year cycling in towns or cities. Drivers are less attentive, more rushed, more aggressive - it's damn frightening. I've lost count of the number of times someone has sailed by me (close pass), then jammed the brakes on and immediately turned straight across my path. The most recent time it happened she parked just a few metres down the road, and I slowed and very politely told her she had really scared me, and hope she could consider cyclists. I was told in no uncertain terms to f---- off, and 'I was still alive, so what was I complaining about'.
It's not intended to be negative toward drivers - I am one - but PLEASE understand what it's like on a bike before you do.
Example - a mate and I out for a run on a Sunday morning, long straight road, it's 8am and no-one around. We're still line astern, taking minimal space. One car coming towards us a long way away - and from behind we hear a big engine flooring it to get by before the other car reaches us. Then we hear tires screeching, and apparently he realises he's not going to make it. What do you do? Take time to look around and maybe get flattened? We both took the option to go off the road and crash into a hedge - and some tw** in a 4x4 rockets by us with his hand on the horn. Somehow OUR fault that he couldn't wait to overtake and misjudged it. I'm sure he had a laugh at us in a hedge - but on another day, we die because of his impatience.
We shouldn't judge either population (drivers or cyclists) by the small percentage of idiots, but if the majority can understand each other it REALLY helps.
Excellent post ^^^
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That is a great example of unreasonable behaviour by the motorist - but by the same token I live in the country and it frightens me how often you find a group of cyclists - or horse riders - proceeding line abreast on narrow, winding country roads within a National Speed Limit area.
Yes, the country is a beautiful place to go for a ride on a nice day - but it is also one of the most dangerous environments combining high speed with low visibility. As such, even for anyone driving well within the speed limit it really doesn't allow much time to react and I'm sure that most people would feel awful if they kill or seriously injure a fellow human being - even if they were not legally at fault.
My point: ALL road users need to be considerate of others and be aware of their environment.
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I see already this thread has shown the lack of consideration and entitlement shown by some drivers against cyclists, often exacerbated should the cyclists inhibit the drivers ability to make progress.
I fear nothing good will come of this thread.
Might be worth reading the article before posting it. According to the article it was proved he couldn't have seen the cyclist. We don't know the exact circumstances, but to automatically assume the car driver is at fault isn't on.
Not every cyclist that dies/is injured is blameless. Some of the cycling in major cities borders on suicidal. I've lost count of the number I've seen that will pass an indicating vehicle on the left hand side, for the sake of a second or two saved.
If everyone on the roads was a bit more considerate and aware, there would be far less injuries .
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I thought the thread was rather balanced based on people giving real examples and acknowledging that the few don't necessarily represent the majority. For the record I'm also a sunny day cyclist and understand how vunerable feel and the lack of consideration by some drivers.
That's only 100 per year. Big deal, there are far more things people should be worrying about.
ps I cycle daily.
I agree that many “Road Users” don’t follow either the Highway Code or the Law.
And sadly I have attended far too many RTC’s, to prove the foolishness, impatience and pure down dangerous antics.
But please don’t tar all us cyclists with the same brush.
Agreed. Pretty balanced, with acceptance that there are good cyclist and bad cyclists, just as there are good car drivers and bad car drivers.
Pete (driver and cyclist)
Ultimately a lot of our roads are not designed for bikes and cars. Historically there would have been a few cars with a few bikes. Then car ownership grew and roads became congested and more dangerous. Now bike ownership is growing and it’s a toxic place for both. Even when people drive and ride sensibly it is an unpleasant and dangerous place. I think cyclist are nuts enforcing their rights by fundamentally putting their lives at risk to do it.
Perhaps cyclists by that argument should try being pedestrians trying to get their kids to school across pedestrian crossings and traffic light junctions. Then they’d be able to understand what it’s like when a cyclist flies through a red light clipping my arm as I step between him and my four year old son?
I can only go on my own experience but in my experience it’s not a minority in London, the majority of cyclists flout the law and put themselves and others in danger.
I’m not saying car drivers are better because again in my experience the standard of driving in London isn’t just bad it’s down right dangerous but as has been said, if everyone followed the laws there would be many less injuries and deaths.
Absolutely agree.
Big deal eh - I’ll say that to you or your family when you get wiped out whilst cycling responsibly...
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Agree and in my part of the world that also includes horse riders and farm machinery however i think that cyclists should carry insurance , pay a road tax and be licensed.
Totally agree if they intend to use public highways.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Who says that the 100 dying were cycling responsibly? How many of them were the morons going through a red light or the inside of a truck and getting squashed, or like they like to do around my way is ride in a group thinking they're in the Tour de France?
A particular favorite of these guys is if the 1st guy enter a junction or roundabout the rest of the group follow totally disregarding any other road users and their right of way. They'll play chicken one to many times.
Oh course I sympathise with innocent victims but there are so few of them there's more important things to worry about.
Most cyclists do pay vehicle excise duty, I certainly do, but I don't think that segment of drivers treat cyclists aggressively because of a lack of documentation. It's a separate argument whether cyclists should be insured or pay road tax (I'd be open to the former, not the latter), but even if they do, some drivers will still get frustrated at sharing the road with things that slow their progress.
Perhaps the only solution is proper cycle infrastructure, as the Netherlands has. Separate roads and paths, traffic lights for priority etc. I cycle to get from A to B, and for pleasure, and if I can do that without any risk from cars I'd be happy, and I'm sure drivers would be happy too.
Possibly but given the current financial position of the UK would you care to suggest where the budget is going to come from for this national cycle infrastructure?
More taxation or cuts to services?
Sorry to appear negative but neither would be popular or political election winners unless I'm missing something.
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It's clear that the point being made, is that 100 per year, given the number of cyclists and the miles covered by those cyclists make injury/death inevitable. And that's 100 total, not 100 taken out by maniac drivers with a vendetta against cyclists.
Approx a third are killed from falling off their bikes, or colliding with a stationary object. More people died in 2014 falling from ladders than cyclists being hit by other vehicles.
Improving safety should always be a priority. But it's a two way street. Mandatory helmets (seriously, what kind of a pillock goes on the public highway without?), obeying traffic lights, being a bit more patient would no doubt make some cyclists safer.
Maybe cyclists should start looking inwards regarding safety, rather than blaming everyone else?
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Try saying that to the family or heaven to bid yours when you knock on the door.
Trying doing it some day!
They do pay a road tax, the same one as car drivers. It's called income tax. Or do you mean vehicle excise duty, a tax based on emissions?
I am constantly perplexed by cyclists. They voluntarily engage in an activity that requires them to defer all responsibility for their safety to random strangers and then wonder why some people don't treat their safety quite as seriously as they obviously don't. It's not like they don't know what the roads and driving standards are like.
I ride a motorcycle. I know it's dangerous. I know I could do everything right and still die. Mother nature does not care one jot whether it's fair or legal or right. These are the terms and conditions of entry and if you choose to enter you have to deal with the consequences.
Just remember it’s a person you would kill not a bike.
Cannot believe how many people trot out the 'cyclists must pay road tax' crap. An argument straight from the Daily Mail comments sections.
Motorists will generally pay Tax on a new vehicle along with Vehicle Registration.
There then follows the privilege of Annual Road Tax, Vehicle Insurance and Tax, Fuel and the extortionate Fuel Tax, Parking Charges and VAT - all coming on top of the Income Tax which you mention.
As such they do pay quite heavily for the privilege of driving on our ever more congested and crumbling highway infrastructure.
What tax or insurance does a cyclist specifically pay in comparison?
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With most of those you mention you're really just pointing out that bikes have a pretty low impact on things compared to cars.
Tax on a new bike. Yes, it's called VAT.
Insurance: I pay specifically for my bikes, yes. But I suppose many will have them covered under house insurance.
Fuel: well, the fuel is me. I guess I might spend more on food to keep me going. That's me contributing right there!
Parking: where bike spaces are provided, it's because councils want people to ride, so they are free as an incentive. And they take up little room compared to cars. Or you can just lock them to some railings.
VAT: not sure I get this one to be honest, what are you getting at? Cyclists aren't exempt from paying VAT...? Think I must have the wrong end of the stick.
I have two cars btw. I'd bet they cause rather more damage to our congested and crumbling highway infrastructure than me on my bike.
I don't pay any specific pavement tax either.
As a motorist and a cyclist:
I pay Income Tax.
I pay VAT on my bike, and all components.
I don't use fuel, so I don't need to pay tax on that.
Ditto parking charges.
When I am cycling, I'm not using any of my 3 cars sat on the drive or in the garage - all of which I pay "Road Tax" on.
I don't wear out the roads.
I don't produce pollution.
I am keeping myself healthy, so I barely use the NHS, which reduces other people's taxes.
We need to get more people to cycle. It reduces air pollution, and reduces congestion in towns and cities.
We have an obesity crisis in this country, so we should be putting as few barriers as possible to people cycling or walking.
Cyclist cause so few accidents, that it is pointless insisting on insurance.
Ditto some sort of licence.
I would support some form of cycling training - Cycling Proficiency Test anyone (I am old enough to have passed it).
We certainly can't afford the cycling infrastructure that countries like Belgium have (have you seen how healthy their population looks ?), but we can make changes in big cities first as a start.
The answer is for all road users and pedestrians to have more respect for each other, and to obey the laws that are already in place.
Pete
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