Reply With QuoteWhat of the other unarmed police officers who ran away whilst being chased by Masood, should they be immediately sacked too?
R
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...or-attack.html
Stayed in his car because he had no personal protective equipment.
Imho he hasn’t got the courage to do the right thing and should lose his job for sitting (not even standing) by whilst Palmer was killed.
What of the other unarmed police officers who ran away whilst being chased by Masood, should they be immediately sacked too?
R
Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.
I have just heard his courtroom response and it makes perfect sense.
Can't help but wonder why he didn't try and run down the attacker with the car, little/no risk to himself and colleagues.
From a spot in the wings and from a remote distance: we are always amazed that there's so much difference between armed and unarmed coppers in the UK. The armed police officers are indeed heavily armed (sadly because reality forces them to wear this sort of gear), where other officers are very vulnerable to attacks from mad-men like this one.
Earlier this year, a guy started kniving away in The Hague and later this year, a guy tried the same in Schiphol. He was stopped by police officers carrying a standard issue Walther P99 (The Hague) and the Schiphol perp was stopped by the military police with a Glock 17 (the military police is called the Marechaussee, responsible for patrolling Schiphol). They didn't want to use their H&K because of the many by-standers!
As said, only from observing from a distance: but a better-balanced armature can help a lot.
Menno
Often wondered about the wisdom of the sort've armaments I've seen carried at railway stations and airports etc given the tendency for them to be crowded places and also in the event a terrorist took one off of a copper and let loose, it would be carnage.Originally Posted by thieuster
obviously I wasn't there and don't know how chaotic things were, but three people watching in a car and doing nothing seems a bit much. we are often told in the media and by politicians haw brave our policemen are, this doesn't seem to be very brave.
Two weeks ago, my wife returned from Boston on Saturday morning at the ungodly hour of 7 am. At that time, only long-haul flights arrive at Schiphol. I was waiting for her and 4 MP's with 4 H&K machineguns walked by, one minute later followed by two more with (only) holstered handguns.
Looking at the 4 heavily armed men and women, I was thinking the same. That was before the other two walked by.
Given the situation at Schiphol a few weeks back, I think that there's a strategy behind this. Off course, the Dutch Marechaussee will never reveal their 'modus operandi'.
Probably didn't have time to complete and file a risk assessment.
Because it was real life and not the A-Team. You try driving your car fast at a moving target while there are members of the public and police force running around the same scene. I don't imagine it would have helped much.
Looking at the photographs of Sir Craig Mackey, let's face it his days of personally tackling any criminal are far behind him. I don't think it's unreasonable for his drivers, as a first reaction, to get him out of the vicinity of an attack.
Menno, when I see an armed police officer, I do a double take because it's not how I want to see police equipped. It's of course sadly necessary in some places, such as where the Koninklijke Marechaussee operate but I hope we and The Netherlands never go down the American route and have police which are little more than a paramilitary force.
As an aside, the Scottish Police are pretty good but they now have these AWFUL uniforms. Ugh.
Those are the winter ones. Wait until you see the summer onesAs an aside, the Scottish Police are pretty good but they now have these AWFUL uniforms. Ugh.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Difficult one - fight or flight maybe? Or was it a rational decision? I think I would be guided by the opinions of officers on the front line as they should be well placed to judge. Any current or ex officers on the forum?
What a load of rubbish. If you go up unarmed & unprotected against someone with a knife, you will end up dead. That is a fact. To suggest that they lack bravery because of this is utterly disrespectful. I'd suggest to stop watching movies and to start living in the real world.
Stay in the car, get on the phone and direct the armed units to where the danger is.
Not much he could have done in my eyes under those circumstances.
This is not about bravery, it's about expectations.
What would they reasonably be expected to do in those circumstances?
FWIW heard on the radio around lunchtime the senior officer involved has stated that he felt they should intervene in some way but the two other officers with him suggested that they needed to get him away to a place of relative safety.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Utter crap, sacked!
He had no PPE so that means no body armour / ASP, spray or cuffs.
He would have just been another casualty.
Just as stylish!Those are the winter ones. Wait until you see the summer ones
It’s not a fact at all, it’s your opinion.
Without PPE, unless you’re some highly trained Chuck Norris type then it’s bloody stupid and you’re likely to end up another victim.
Without wishing to put the Officer down as well, he was not exactly in the prime of his life or appears to be in peak condition.
It could be argued that the two Officers who were with him could have possibly assisted but again, unlikely they would have been armed or able to do much.
But good to see the keyboard warriors who have all no doubt been on Embassy Walls piping up with what they would have done.
I think there are too many people confusing real life with Lethal Weapon. What do people think is going to happen when an over weight 56 year old desk jockey waddles up to a crazed knife wielding manic with nothing but his best uniform on for protection? The man did the correct thing. His experience and knowledge would be / is far more beneficial in command and control. Its called dynamic risk assessment, we all do it to some degree. Weigh up the dangers, likelihood of what may happen etc. If he'd have gone an 'ad a go there'd be more than likely one more to be added to the body count.
The Guardian reports says another police officer told him to get out, make safe, go and lock the door. The other two in the car with him weren't police officers.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...rom-inside-car
He made a calculated decision (or claims he did) to not intervene.
Plenty others have demonstrated a disregard for their own safety in saving or trying to save others.....
Those people usually dismiss their own act as being “what anyone would do”......
Clearly they are wrong.
Arm all cops IMHO.
Last edited by -Ally-; 8th October 2018 at 17:28.
I think it's statically likely that if you are an unarmed person in normal clothes and you tackle someone willing to kill carrying a blade that you are likely to come off badly. I'm not clear what the value would be beyond another dead person.
Still it's always good for the members of the Light Laptop Brigade to identify themselves to each other - then they can exchanged detailed private messages on how they would use their EDC (Every day carry) to kill the terrorists and then whittle some charming miniature figures from some left over wood while they wait to give their statement to the press.
Last edited by Alansmithee; 8th October 2018 at 17:32.
You forgot where they need to mask their identity so need those funny black rectangles across their eyes and nose.
Standard issue to all Walts in their EDC Go Bags.
There’s some pretty grim imagery going around of the cops who were slashed and stabbed this weekend down in the Stan, as the threat gets greater there really is no good reason not to allow cops to carry firearms.
The UK “armed up” for the Olympics as they feared the possibility of a Mumbai type attack and didn’t want to be in a firefight with a 9mm carbine vs an assault rifle. Following the Paris shootings I can’t see that changing.
Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app
Different story at Glasgow Airport
“According to reports, the car was occupied by two "Asian-looking" men.[18] When the Jeep failed to explode, one man (later identified as Abdulla) threw petrol bombs from the passenger seat and the other (Ahmed) doused himself in petrol and set it alight.[6] Police indicated the vehicle burst into flames when it was driven at the terminal.[19] An eyewitness noted that a man got out of the car and began to fight with police.[20] Another eyewitness said that the man was throwing punches and repeatedly shouting "Allah".[21][22][23] The man was arrested and later identified as Bilal Abdulla, a UK-born doctor of Iraqi descent who was working at the Royal Alexandra Hospital. Another man exited the car and ran into the terminal building while he was on fire and began writhing on the ground, before being kicked in the testicles by an airport employee, John Smeaton,[24] who was awarded the Queen's Gallantry Medal for his heroism”
They weren’t armed with knives and hadn’t just run down members of the public, thankfully.
Just two backward clowns who were on fire.
Notwithstanding that, it was commendable for the Scottish fellow to lay into them.
Last edited by burnside; 8th October 2018 at 18:30.
Gentle reminder: this thread is in the G&D.
I think the reaction is more than understandable. He would have merely been another statistic with no form of protection whatsoever.
Maybe.................
Maybe not.
I am not sure that kicking somebody who is on fire in the nads is an act of selfless bravery or not TBH, but top effort!.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
He should have sent it to Harry Hill, £250 bonus!
I’m not denying it, I certainly wouldn’t have gone up against him, but please read the post that I quoted, and if you are honest with yourself, you will agree with it. There are probably thousands of knife attacks around the world daily where the person attacked has survived.
Not a fact. But a likelihood.
- - - Updated - - -
Because he was in the back!
Anyway you cut it, he is a coward. True, he could end up dead or could end up distracting the terrorist scumbag just long enough for the close protection officers to arrive and shoot the c. He choose to do nothing and leave when his expertise could be helpful.
Fas est ab hoste doceri
Crikey, this post and the doctor who one, there seems to be a bug up your arse tonight!!!!
It's good to hear from you - we were starting to think you'd been 'reassigned' from the Internet Research Agency. Good to see you are well!
Expertise? You'd think he was Steven Segal, not an overweight 50 something in a car with 2 civilians.
The failure isn't a fat fella in a shirt and tie failing to take a knife wielding nutcase out with a roundhouse. It's the lack of firearms coverage for an obvious target.
Sent from my ONEPLUS A6003 using Tapatalk
Given he was likely on his way to a meeting, he would have had pens on him - this is what he should have done:
https://youtu.be/UFnmq5PPScA?t=76
Cops with no bottle are of no use to anyone. Same for the obese.
Military and Police can from time to time have a wobble. Throwing your life away to prove you have bottle is a waste.
Obviously you are nails and would have taken out this piece of filth without lifting a finger. What a hero you must be ........
So there were three people in the car, no toolkit? No jack? Nothing to throw? It’s not die hard but they could have done more
I can honestly say I am not brave.
I’ve faced people with knives threatening people twice hoping other people would back me and numbers would make the difference.
The first time everyone moved away and I was left petrified alone but managed to talk him down.
The second time we stood shoulder to shoulder [strangers] but it was still very scary.
I don’t have any special skills,certainly not unarmed combat.
I can not see anyway on God’s earth if that was one of my army mates I would have left the scene.
Not from misguided heroism or thinking I was Rambo but because that’s how we lived with the buddy buddy system.
I would be more scared of letting the side down than getting stabbed.
Stand behind the car abuse him,throw a fire extinguisher at him,try anything you don’t have to go in thinking you can get the knife of him.
But you might distract him long enough for help to arrive.
Bullshit - he was the Acting Commissioner who will have been off of front line policing for years. He would probably cause more issues than solve.
Please do not bring your poison into the G&D.
Last edited by Chris_in_the_UK; 8th October 2018 at 20:17.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Ah another one.
VDG, easy to sit from the sidelines and judge. No doubt you would have run over and gone for him.
RESPECT - If you are employed in the emergency services you behave in the same manner as your frontline. That doesn't mean you act like Rambo necessarily but it does mean, at least for me, that you support the line as best you can. Lead from the front isn't too much to ask.
Last edited by Suds; 8th October 2018 at 20:25.
There but for the Grace of God Go we all.
We may all of hoped we’d have acted in one way or the other but until you’re actually in that position I think it’s not our place to judge or criticise.
There should have been armed officers there and the gates should have been closed.
Whoever decided that this should not be so is the one / ones being criticised.
well said and well done.
Last edited by Passenger; 9th October 2018 at 09:01.
Posting Permissions
