Fifty year old Rolex Sea-Dweller

[Haywood_Milton]

Shabby old diver's watch...



...or thin case DRSD 1665 from 1967 with Mark II chocolate / smudge dial?

You could say either or both, but it has significance in any event. Much greater detail and macro photographs may be found here:

https://www.miltonaires.com/7400/thi...5-mark-ii-dial

It's not my watch; we just appraised it for a lovely visitor.

Haywood

[fordystar]

Shabby old diver's watch...



...or thin case DRSD 1665 from 1967 with Mark II chocolate / smudge dial?

You could say either or both, but it has significance in any event. Much greater detail and macro photographs may be found here:

https://www.miltonaires.com/7400/thi...5-mark-ii-dial

It's not my watch; we just appraised it for a lovely visitor.

Haywood

What was appraised value? If that’s not being too intrusive? I had some insurance valuations done recently and any models that were were discontinued were appraised at new replacement value, surely a Paul Newman Daytona can’t just be appraised at new RRP, does anyone know anything about insurance and what insuring a vintage but worth a fortune watch? Sorry to go off topic HM looks an absolutely fantastic piece! Thanks for sharing.


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[Haywood_Milton]

What was appraised value? If that’s not being too intrusive? I had some insurance valuations done recently and any models that were were discontinued were appraised at new replacement value, surely a Paul Newman Daytona can’t just be appraised at new RRP, does anyone know anything about insurance and what insuring a vintage but worth a fortune watch? Sorry to go off topic HM looks an absolutely fantastic piece! Thanks for sharing.

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I saw our primary purpose to be informing him of exactly what he had. Value is very difficult to attribute when there are so few comparisons and each dial is uniquely deteriorated. There are stains and marks here that don't show in photographs. How much should one discount for them? Is the dial stable, or will its decline continue? When so much of the value is vested therein, one will be especially careful if thinking of making an offer. It is easy to throw out figures and say "that's an £xx,000" watch because another example or two in much better condition have done that well in this over-excited market, but one DRSD Mk II is very much not the same as the next.

You are absolutely correct that a new replacement value is often entirely inappropriate for a vintage Rolex. This is where an SHRV (secondhand replacement value) is the format recognised by the NAJ Institute of Registered Valuers (the governing UK body). Very few valuers are capable of completing such a valuation to a suitable standard, falling short in both determining what exactly they are looking at and then, inevitably, attributing appropriate value.

H

[noidea]

That is a beautiful example Haywood. Thank you for sharing.
It still must get you excited to see such pieces even though you have seen so many other special variations over the years?

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[Haywood_Milton]

That is a beautiful example Haywood. Thank you for sharing.
It still must get you excited to see such pieces even though you have seen so many other special variations over the years?

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More than is explicable or than my wife can tolerate, yes.

I do enjoy the deconstruction of a watch, identifying exactly what it is and translating the apparently insignificant into historical context. There are many duplicates in my collection....but no two watches properly "the same."

H

[jameswrx]

I always find it interesting how beat up and/or rounded off old Rolex cases are in the majority.

I’m wearing my 50 year old 6105-8009 today and the case edges are still sharp. It’s actually more unusual to see a worn rounded or polished rounded old 62MAS or 6105-8000/9 case than it is to find them more on the sharp side.

Was the older blend of Rolex steel a soft one? I know they brag on their new blend being tough.

[RJM25R]

I do enjoy these threads Haywood, even though I know very little about the vintage Rolex world I do enjoy “learning”

[Der Amf]

This is the estimation that I would find most expressive: if a similar example were available for you to purchase, would you be buying it to sell, or to add to your own personal collection?

[Haywood_Milton]

This is the estimation that I would find most expressive: if a similar example were available for you to purchase, would you be buying it to sell, or to add to your own personal collection?

If I could buy such a watch (even in poor condition, but then at the right price to reflect that) it would probably be staying with us for an indefinite duration. Ultimately everything is for sale at a silly enough price.

H

[bobdog]

Lovely watch, I know a gentleman in every sence of the word who also has a thin case, his is almost perfect with the dial being slightly tropical, the price was eye watering but the surprising thing is he wears it as a daily, now to me that is bravery!

[Seadweller75]

Lovely, i so need one or two of these... I wonder where i put that lottery ticket. :-)

[Pete D]

I still wear my 1977 MkIV DRSD as a daily, but agonise over it occasionally. I do take it off if I’m working on the bike or car now though!

After over 35 years on my wrist, bar service absences, I’d feel odd without it. I do wonder if I should retire it for a Submariner of lower value.


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[jameswrx]

I still wear my 1977 MkIV DRSD as a daily, but agonise over it occasionally. I do take it off if I’m working on the bike or car now though!

After over 35 years on my wrist, bar service absences, I’d feel odd without it. I do wonder if I should retire it for a Submariner of lower value.


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Don’t do it Pete. You’re a long time dead I say! It must be like an old friend now and there’s a reason why you still spend time with your oldest friends.

[Pete D]

Don’t do it Pete. You’re a long time dead I say! It must be like an old friend now and there’s a reason why you still spend time with your oldest friends.

You’re right, of course. I should still look at it as a £270 watch.......but am often reminded of its potential fragility and attraction to low-life thieves. I would be very upset if I were to damage or lose it.


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[AlexM]

Nothing shabby about a DRSD regardless of condition. :)

[paskinner]

I saw our primary purpose to be informing him of exactly what he had. Value is very difficult to attribute when there are so few comparisons and each dial is uniquely deteriorated. There are stains and marks here that don't show in photographs. How much should one discount for them? Is the dial stable, or will its decline continue? When so much of the value is vested therein, one will be especially careful if thinking of making an offer. It is easy to throw out figures and say "that's an £xx,000" watch because another example or two in much better condition have done that well in this over-excited market, but one DRSD Mk II is very much not the same as the next.



H

He'd get an answer on 'Antiques Roadshow.' And everybody would gasp and start wondering about their old watches at home in a draw.

[dougair]

Nothing a trip to RSC can’t fix! New dial, hands, bezel and bracelet and a fairly hefty case polish and it would look like new!

[Haywood_Milton]

He'd get an answer on 'Antiques Roadshow.' And everybody would gasp and start wondering about their old watches at home in a draw.

...while some people with more than half a clue gasp in frustration that the "expert" gets the facts and value typically wrong.

Those shows are in significant part works of fiction and often outrageously misleading.

Remember that famous video clip of Dickinson and Co royally messing up the valuation of an old GMT? Bidding soared to a massive multiple of the value they had suggested, while the mulleted tea-bag looked on in entirely predictable astonishment.

I referred to it in a talk once, whereupon his sometime-sidekick, "sell-your-gold" party host and velvet-blazer-touting whiner Tim Hogarth waddled up to wag a sausage at me and complain that I'd been unfair. Told him where to get off, but didn't comment on the Captain Slow hair and 1980s cruise ship fashion. Old ladies probably like it.

[Haywood_Milton]

Nothing a trip to RSC can’t fix! New dial, hands, bezel and bracelet and a fairly hefty case polish and it would look like new!

It would be funny, but I've got someone travelling to see me shortly with a 1960s GMT-Master......that has just had £3,000 of work carried out through Mappin & Webb. I have sweaty palms thinking about what might have been done to the poor watch :-(

[fordystar]

It would be funny, but I've got someone travelling to see me shortly with a 1960s GMT-Master......that has just had £3,000 of work carried out through Mappin & Webb. I have sweaty palms thinking about what might have been done to the poor watch :-(

Jesus! Do they also keep the parts swapped out? I’m no expert in vintage field so please excuse the question if it’s been done to death!


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[Haywood_Milton]

Jesus! Do they also keep the parts swapped out? I’m no expert in vintage field so please excuse the question if it’s been done to death!


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They're supposed to destroy them now. Many, I am told, used to "leak" out via the watchmakers. Hmmmm.

I have known people to be able to get their parts back if they realise quickly that they have lost a component of significant value, but I would not be optimistic. It's painful to think what may have been taken from watches, lost / destroyed / "moved sideways" through the years.

[vortex89]

Jesus! Do they also keep the parts swapped out?

I'd hope not, just imagine the money they could make selling the discarded parts!

[fordystar]

They're supposed to destroy them now. Many, I am told, used to "leak" out via the watchmakers. Hmmmm.

I have known people to be able to get their parts back if they realise quickly that they have lost a component of significant value, but I would not be optimistic. It's painful to think what may have been taken from watches, lost / destroyed / "moved sideways" through the years.

Could anyone really destroy a 50 year old dial or hands! Oh my word!!! Scary thought indeed! I would insist on all of my parts back with no exceptions.


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[Haywood_Milton]

Could anyone really destroy a 50 year old dial or hands! Oh my word!!! Scary thought indeed! I would insist on all of my parts back with no exceptions.


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They would politely decline you any service work.

[fordystar]

They would politely decline you any service work.

Madness! More outrageous than keeping warranty cards


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[TKH]

Haywood I do wish you would stop posting pics of DRSD's whilst I am still on the 'wait' list for one.....hahaha

[hot66]

Stunning watch :)

[Andyg]

This was certainly no safe queen. Looks at if both the strap and the insert have been replaced at some point.

Still worth +£35k of anyone's money.

Today I played golf in my 1977, 1665 Rail Dial (with original strap and fat font insert) these watches are made to be worn.

[ejtrent]

What an excellent write up!

[JasonM]

It would be funny, but I've got someone travelling to see me shortly with a 1960s GMT-Master......that has just had £3,000 of work carried out through Mappin & Webb. I have sweaty palms thinking about what might have been done to the poor watch :-(

You would think by now Rolex and or M&W would at least double check with the customer and explain the implications. Rolex at least are aware of the idiosyncratic ways of vintage watch collectors, I also appreciate that there are people who want their watch returned as new regardless. At least give them a informed choice.

[higham5]

I do enjoy these threads Haywood, even though I know very little about the vintage Rolex world I do enjoy “learning”

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^! Me too

Steve

[P.Sheridan]

Great Essay Haywood @link above. Very informative and enjoyable read.
What do you think the chances are that the dial would continue to deteriorate, even if kept in safe keeping ?

[Mainspring]

Thanks for posting this Haywood.

This sort of in-depth study and evaluation is both informative and fascinating to read.

Personally, I find all the specific nuances intriguing, and serve to demonstrate the depth of knowledge and experience needed to provide a valued appraisal.

Thanks for sharing, as always.

[woodacre1983]

Thank you for posting this. As someone who knows very little about vintage your write ups are a pleasure to read and very informative!


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[Haywood_Milton]

Great Essay Haywood @link above. Very informative and enjoyable read.
What do you think the chances are that the dial would continue to deteriorate, even if kept in safe keeping ?

I’d like to hope the main surface is relatively stable, but it’s a considerable risk. The tritium has reacted significantly and unevenly in response either to light, oxidation or other contamination. You’re essentially looking at buying a house in the knowledge that there is a small fire in the basement....

Thanks to you and others for your kind comments. As much as anything I create these photographic accounts as a permanent record for my own use!

[Bluebird84]

Shabby old diver's watch...



...or thin case DRSD 1665 from 1967 with Mark II chocolate / smudge dial?

You could say either or both, but it has significance in any event. Much greater detail and macro photographs may be found here:

https://www.miltonaires.com/7400/thi...5-mark-ii-dial

It's not my watch; we just appraised it for a lovely visitor.

Haywood

Great post Haywood. Thank you, I love reading these type of threads!

[P.Sheridan]

You’re essentially looking at buying a house in the knowledge that there is a small fire in the basement....!

Great analogy

[JeremyO]

Thanks for posting Haywood.

Although I have no hankerings for vintage watches this was a very interesting and informative post.

[gary1064]

A great read Haywood. As always your depth of knowledge on all things relating to vintage Rolex watches is impressive. Please do keep posting this type of thing, it adds a great deal to the forum.

[Camulos]

Beautiful, thanks for sharing!

[Craizeehair]

Another great read. I was just discussing the subject of SHRV with SWMBO and where to get one completed correctly for my 16753 to said suitable standard.


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[Yorkshiremadmick]

Thanks for sharing this Haywood, great article on your site.
Lovely piece.



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[VDG]

Many thanks for the pleasant afternoon read H.

[Neely8]

Incredible watch and info, Haywood.

[WhopperSenior]

What a great find. Looks great in it's current state.

I've heard of people people "stabilising" lume which I guess means putting a coat of lacquer over the hand. Does that sound right? Is there a similar solution to stop the dial deteriorating further?

[steptoe]

I still wear my 1977 MkIV DRSD as a daily, but agonise over it occasionally. I do take it off if I’m working on the bike or car now though!

After over 35 years on my wrist, bar service absences, I’d feel odd without it. I do wonder if I should retire it for a Submariner of lower value.


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I stopped wearing mine well over a year ago... like you i wore it daily, even while working on motorcycles which is my daily business...
I hadn't realised they'd risen so much in value and suddenly got all precious over possibly damaging it.

Sad, as now sits unworn. What does one do.

[doctorj]

I always find it interesting how beat up and/or rounded off old Rolex cases are in the majority.

I’m wearing my 50 year old 6105-8009 today and the case edges are still sharp. It’s actually more unusual to see a worn rounded or polished rounded old 62MAS or 6105-8000/9 case than it is to find them more on the sharp side.

Was the older blend of Rolex steel a soft one? I know they brag on their new blend being tough.

Difference between what they do in servicing, I suppose. Rolex always (used to?) heavily polish the cases to make them completely scratch free. I doubt the average Seiko owner cares about their watch looking like new.

[MartinCRC]

Difference between what they do in servicing, I suppose. Rolex always (used to?) heavily polish the cases to make them completely scratch free. I doubt the average Seiko owner cares about their watch looking like new.

And ironically, the Rolexes now look shagged and the Seikos sharp!

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[jameswrx]

And ironically, the Rolexes now look shagged and the Seikos sharp!

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I guess that is kind of ironic when you think about it... Treat your Rolex to regular polishing to look ‘new’ and 50 years later the Seiko your brother bought at the same time (and hasn’t touched) looks newer.

[jameswrx]

Difference between what they do in servicing, I suppose. Rolex always (used to?) heavily polish the cases to make them completely scratch free. I doubt the average Seiko owner cares about their watch looking like new.

Perhaps that’s why rolex came out with the Maxi case, plenty of meat on the bone...

In 50 years time after 5 services/polishes it might actually look good haha