Reply With QuoteGreat work OP!
Great to see that Tudor went to the effort of decorating the movement :)
Howdy!
Some people go around slagging off the Tudor for having an ETA movement, saying £2k is a lot of money for a watch with a 2824 in it.. But when you look at them on the inside it's very obvious that this isnt an off the shelf movement.
I don't fully know the complete list of upgrades but the refinishing alone is extensive!
I had the back off of it to regulate it as it was keeping +10 a day, I figured it could do much better than that. Having decided that's it's a keeper and also having tinkered with watches before I felt confident I could handle it. What was even nicer was is that this movement uses a triovis regulator, which basically means its a fine adjustment screw to regulate it rather than a stiff lever.. Anyone who's regulated watches before will know what I mean.
I took the steps to aquire the right tools, non magnetic screwdrivers, the clone rolex caseback tool set, a greasing pad for the gasket, tweezers etc. I made the case holder myself out of some scrap beech and dowels (with threaded rod and 8mm CF tube from my knifemaking supplies to guide it). The case holder turned out to be essential as the watch back was incredibly tight - I'm certain it doesnt need to be that tight!
I use the light version of the 'watch tuner' app, it seems really functional and in a quiet space works very well. It's nice to have the accuracy of the signal its receiving listed and all the readings I was getting were matching my real world experience.
So all this to show you the ETA inside of the Tudor, albeit through a loupe..
I'd say I'm pretty hands on by nature, and a lot of you may squirm and tell me I'm crazy for doing the work myself.. But with patience and the right tools (and right environment) it's a very rewarding a relatively simple task.
Great work OP!
Great to see that Tudor went to the effort of decorating the movement :)
Great stuff an I like the case holder, can't see the case getting any damage from that piece of kit a brilliant idea.
Thank you - that was really interesting.
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Fantastic work Elliott, will be interesting to hear how the time keeping settles down now.
Let’s hope those Knipex pipe grips weren’t required 😝
Haha I was waiting for someone to notice!Originally Posted by JGJG
I used them to knip up my homemade case holder!
Sounds like a fun rewarding project in all. Interesting read also. Thanks for sharing the experience with us
Well done! Nice hands on.
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The upgrades (or replacements depending on your point of view), are the shock spring and the regulation system.
I think each to their own and there are multiple valid viewpoints.
Personally, and this is just my opinion, the differences between a Tudor 2824 and a high grade 2824 in a Longines, Oris, TAG etc. doesn't really add value for me.
Quite obviously Tudor has put cost and effort into make the movement "their own" but the actual benefits over the ETA, for me, don't justify the costs. The shock spring is more expensive, but the quantifiable benefit over Etachoc/Incabloc is debatable. The regulation is different rather than better, it won't make the actual movement any better or worse. At best, it can be argued that it makes it easier for a watchmaker to adjust the watch, but that's a matter of preference more than performance.
Now, if you were talking about Tudor's in house movement, that's a totally different beast that (at least on paper) blows even the most expensive 2824 based movement out of the water. Although, a bit ironically, in the in house movement they have gone with a spartan, "raw" finish and an Incabloc shock spring over the Kif!
Last edited by JimbobIJones; 25th September 2018 at 21:00. Reason: spelling
Thanks for sharing this. Way beyond my capabilities, from all aspects, so really fascinating to see.
The Tudor modifications are a bit more extensive, but I accept it's a matter of personal preference as to how they are valued.
Whether a KIF shock is superior to Incabloc is something a watchmaker is better placed to comment upon, but there's probably a good reason why parent co. Rolex (plus JLC, Patek, AP etc.) have themselves used KIF for many years.
Whilst I agree changing the regulation system isn't necessarily a huge benefit in itself, it does mean they have to go to the hassle of replacing the entire balance bridge that it rests upon - they don't just use the same one with a lever removed.
Plus, there is no 'phantom' date-setting crown position on the Tudor 2824-2: position 0 is winding, and 1 is time-setting. Whether this means they remove all the parts themselves or buy them pre-customized like that I don't know, but either way I imagine it costs a little more, and is certainly a classier solution than just lazily leaving the date function hidden behind the dial.
I also can't see Tudor making all those changes around the vital balance/hairspring system and not then needing to take the time to hand-regulate the modified movement again afterwards. For regular ETA 2824-2 grades, I doubt they they are hand-regulated by most manufacturers - that adds extra cost. Of course, it didn't appear to work so well in the above instance, but my own Tudor is ridiculously accurate.
Finally, whilst Tudor start with the 'Top' grade movement, I suspect that in the vast majority of their watches the likes of TAG, Oris etc. tend to use the lower 'Elabore', at best.
Of course, the cost differential between a Tudor and other brands using a stock ETA/Sellita is about more than just the movement - other factors come into play.
Either way, though lacking some modern tech and a longer lower reserve, and of course only machine-finished, the Top grade 2824-2 is a terrific movement in its own right.
Cracking insight there - thanks very much.
That must be very satisfying doing it yourself. Well done for doing a good job well!
Hi. Thank you for the hands on experience shared and knowledge. It what makes this forum worthwhile.
Martyn.
Thanks for the kind words!
I really enjoy doing this kind of thing, the results are very rewarding!
Love these "fiddled with my watch" type posts :)
So in your picture where/how do you adjust the timing? Is it the little screw on the end?
Great work and very interesting thanks!! Out of interest do you intend to get the watch pressure tested before it goes into water? Or are you happy it's waterproof again?
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It is indeed! Took a 0.6mm driver and a 5x magnifier, about half a turn slower then an 1/8th or so back to get it where I wanted it!
Given the watch is only a couple years old and I followed all correct procedures (lubricating and being very careful with the gasket) I have no problem taking it into water.
How is that screw held in place, by that I mean what stops it screwing/unscrewing? Could google I suppose but then that would kill the convo :)
Very nice work , thanks for sharing :)
Is the watch tuner app using the internal mic on your phone/tablet or are you using an external mic?
I'm an avid fan of Tudor myself and think most of their watches represent value for money compared to some of the competition.
I have to ask though, who is responsible for the chewed up screw holding the movement in place?
not me! Might just be muck I’m not sure,
As far as I can tell I was the first to have the caseback off and it may be grease I’m not sure as the picture quality isn’t great.
24 hours since the regulation and after a day of normal wear I’m at -1
A watchmaker would know but I presume it is some kind of threadlocker, no idea though
Thank you OP, an informative post and interesting read.
The internal mic on my phone 7 does an excellent job, I an rest of over the movement on the wooden pegs and I get a 95-100% quality signal! (the mic is right next to the plug input)
The regulator screw must be under some spring pressure, I’ve never seen this arrangement before. It teminds me of the swan- neck adjustors on old Omegas, very easy to make incremental changes on an itterative basis.
I for one am impressed by what you have done,please keep us informed.
Appreciate the insight!
Here are some more close up images that are not mine:
I have an ETA Pelagos, it keeps very good time with the correct positioning overnight, it's good to know the actual modifications Tudor have done to the movement.
Now I get it, I can see how it works. There’s enough friction in tha adjuster to keep the screw where it should be. An elegant solution to a problem that didn’t really exist, but it’s nicely made and I like it.
Swapping the Incabloc set- up a Kif seems a bit pointless to me but I guess they’re looking to be different. All in all it looks nice, and I’m sure the movement runs as well as it looks.
It must be perfectly setup as the screw itself has very little resistance on it!
Maybe it fits in with their production better? Not sure if their in house movements use a similar regulator.
How much resistence do you expect?........... it’s not like taking cars apart!
Seriously, with a 0.6mm screwdriver you’re doing it the right way....but watch work is all about feel and its something you only develop with experience.
Paul
Good work. You case holder is magnificent.
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The holder is nothing special really!
The pegs/dowels are removable and the guide bars are epoxied in place with the head of the bolt mortised in so you can just crank the nut.
I imagine back in the day they used similar wooden contraptions before the advent of plastic!
Thanks Paul,
I'd love to learn more, is there any books you'd recommend or is some kind of course essential?
May I ask how you position this watch overnight for optimum results (with regard to timekeeping accuracy)?
I have the same watch myself but I’ve struggled to find the ”best” position for it to rest in.
With the bb36 I lay it crown up (9 down) and seem to get no deviation at all overnight,
On day 2 now I'm looking at still -1 over 2 days so happy days!
Great work, thanks for sharing.
Still keeping between -1 and 0.5 off dead on, so in 3 days still not deviated more than a second
It's a rack and pinion arrangement, the same as the ladies Rolex 2030. The pinion is captive and just rotates, it's not a screw that goes in and out.
They use kif, because up until recently it is what was used in all Rolex and Tudor, excluding the really early stuff. It's just the system they picked to use before developing their own.
To the original poster, does you timing app measure beat error? With this adjuster it is very easy to push on the whole assembly when adjusting the screw, which will put the balance out of beat.
Thanks for the info!
No it doesn't but I was aware of that from reading up about the triovis and was very careful when turning the screw!
I'm confident I successful avoided screwing it up given it's keeping within a second after four days
Just got the upgraded version of the app,
Showing 0.1-0.4ms of beat error
Is that in all positions of the watch? Either way anything below 1ms total difference is fine in reality.
As ever, my advice to anyone regulating a watch is to check the rate 'on the wrist' by wearing it for several hours during a typical day. Check the time against a quartz analogue watch, that's the easiest way. Check the time 'dial up' by simply leaving the watch inn the dial up position for several hrs, starting from a high state of wind. On the basis that folks wear a watch for 16hrs then leave it dial-up overnight, 0.66 x 'on the wrist' rate + 0.33 x 'dial up; rate will give the overall rate. It's simple, and it works. The rate on the wrist will vary slightly, but it's surprising how consistent watches are in this respect.
The smallest reproducible movement of the small screw on this one is a 45° rotation (one eighth turn). It helps if you can work out how many secs/day equates to this movement. Once you get it close you can turn it by half this amount, but then it comes down to judgement. I use a strong magnifier and sketch the position of the screwhead before and after moving it, with a small arrow showing what I`ve done, keep a table of timing figures on a notepad and this helps. I know it's unfashionable to write stuff down thesedays but trust me it helps.
As already stated, be careful not to upset the beat error by moving the whole arm. Also take great care to keep dirt and foreign bodies out of the watch when the back's off, a strong magnifier, a piece of Rodico and strong lighting will help a lot. Tiny fibres off your clothing are a hazard, I never work on a watch wearing long sleeves.
Excellent post and thanks for the photos
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Thanks for the tips - being that it's the only watch I wear right now I can quite easily measure real world accuracy.
Overnight with the crown up I see no deviation in time at all, and over a day I'm seeing it deviating 0.5 seconds either way but then settling during the evening at -1 slow from the time.is website.
Exceedingly accurate given I haven't set the watch since I've started this thread and its currently only a second from exact time.
A great result.
Personally I avoid rodico at all costs (it is not allowed at my work place)and wear long sleeves, but hey ho.
What's the problem with Rodico? Provided it's used sensibly I don`t see a problem. To claim any work environment is totally dust-free is impossible.
I use the premium grade and I ensure it's clean.
Amazed to hear it's forbidden!
Paul
AF Rub-off is even better than rodico. Its what Rolex use in their final assembly of new watches. It's the blue stuff.
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