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Thread: Jaguar to sue Christopher Ward

  1. #101
    Grand Master SimonK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.Pottinger View Post

    As I remarked to an historian known who was doing work for IWC that IWC ostensibly supplied German forces during WW2 (e.g. U-boat instruments among other items)
    I don't see why you say ostensibly, IWC was de facto the only Swiss supplier of B-Uhr watches to the Luftwaffe alongside four German manufacturers.

  2. #102
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    This creation of brand linkage by way of association is always an interesting subject. For example, it appears that many believe that the Rolex Explorer was the first watch worn on the summit of Everest. This belief has been reinforced with images of the Explorer imposed over views of Mount Everest - without their having ever made a specific claim to that achievement.
    It will certainly be interesting to follow developments.
    To be fair, Rolex did have a long, but ultimately unsuccessful, connection with Everest. While the first serious attempt on Everest demonstrably used Borgel, with George Mallory's Borgel recovered and now at the Royal Geographical Society. This assault may or may not have succeeded, but the next generation to attack the mountain generally wore Rolex, a fact Rolex is quick to point out. Eric Shipton, for example, wore one of the very first Oysters, in silver. while John Noel carried an Elgin pocket watch. Both with screw down front and back.

    Shipton carried on wearing an early Oyster but was the victim of an establishment coup which saw him replaced by Hunt. Post war, the Swiss '52 expedition was equipped with Rolex and failed. The '53 expedition was equipped with watches, (A409) alarm clocks (KA22) and a profusion of instrumentation by Smiths. Rolex provided Oysters (6098). In addition, Griffith Pugh, the man who cracked diet, hydration, acclimatisation and oxygen rates, allowing the expedition to succeed, wore an Omega (CK2287) chronograph with a 321 movement.

    The first, and unsuccessful) assault team comprising of Tom Bourdillon and Charles Evans both wore Oysters. However, their technically advanced rebreather system failed and they had to retreat. Hillary and Tenzing, the strongest climbers of the team, but both 'colonials' and lower down the pecking order, made a second assault using oxygen tech basically unchanged since Mallory. Contrary to a lot of internet claims, and indeed claims later made by the family of Tenzing (that Tenzing wore a gold Rolex Datejust given to him the year before) both were wearing one watch - the Smiths A409. Hillary's is currently in the Science Museum. Tenzing's, worn on an 18mm Bonclip bracelet and clearly (and unclearly) visible in more than a few RGS photographs and seconds of film seems to have disappeared, as have the eleven other Smith's watches and well over half of the Rolex.

    So Rolex were, from '21 to '53 at least, intimately involved in failed attempts on Everest. If you want the watches that made it to the top, you are looking for a Smiths A409 (or at least a variant of it that's almost a Benson) or an expedition (rather than military) 1915 Borgel with a Fontainemelon 1 movement. Like so:



    I think Mallory made it...
    Last edited by M4tt; 21st September 2018 at 00:20.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonK View Post
    I don't see why you say ostensibly, IWC was de facto the only Swiss supplier of B-Uhr watches to the Luftwaffe alongside four German manufacturers.
    Well, reading what I wrote I don't believe I did state that "ostensibly, IWC was de fact to the only Swiss supplier of B-Uhr watches to the Luftwaffe [etc]".
    To be clear, I did not mention B-Uhr watches either, nor did I state or imply that IWC was the only Swiss watch manufacturer who supplied German forces during WW2. I'm sorry you thought I did state that.

    The over-arching point being made (and quite clearly I believe) was (and is) that IWC did not officially supply the UK RAF and Commonwealth air forces during WW2 yet it advertises a model of watch under the name 'Spitfire' including photos and depictions of spitfire aircraft in RAF WW2 markings (livery) (including Battle of Britain livery). Moreover, the specific watch model ('Spitfire') and associated promotional material produced and exhibited by IWC is at odds with the historical record in several respects including:

    supply arrangements for the RAF (contrary to the association made in the photos of the IWC promotional materials) and more broadly in terms of economic and material relations (and further aspects as indicated) with the German government and German forces during WW2 and particularly before a shift c. 1944. Regarding the latter, when the outcome of the war was inevitable several Swiss manufacturers adjusted their relations, including apparently IWC. Others did not and had been firm in their commitment to support the UK and Commonwealth and later allied forces against the Nazis (e.g. Breitling, Omega, JLC etc who made special arrangements to do so and in some cases at personal risk to the owner and staff under pressure even when in Switzerland from various quarters).

    There were complexities and much political pressure meaning some manufacturers did supply Axis forces in small quantities whilst being firmly in the UK/Commonwealth and later larger Allied camp in terms of their watch supply arrangements.

    IWC were not, to my knowledge, supplying UK and Commonwealth forces officially or in any significant quantity if at all until c. 1944 as noted above (the Mk X) and were and had been supplying the German war effort clearly in view of the volume of their exports and arrangements.

    Notably, IWC was and is located on the border with Germany where there are close ties of various kinds to to Germany. It's also noteworthy that IWC was caught up in the 'mistaken' bombing of Schaffhausen later in the war by US bombers. Reparations were paid, though some believe it was not a mistake but more a warming...

    Hope that clarifies.

    Cheerio,

    AP.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by A.Pottinger View Post
    Well, reading what I wrote I don't believe I did state that "ostensibly, IWC was de fact to the only Swiss supplier of B-Uhr watches to the Luftwaffe [etc]".
    To be clear, I did not mention B-Uhr watches either, nor did I state or imply that IWC was the only Swiss watch manufacturer who supplied German forces during WW2. I'm sorry you thought I did state that.

    The over-arching point being made (and quite clearly I believe) was (and is) that IWC did not officially supply the UK RAF and Commonwealth air forces during WW2 yet it advertises a model of watch under the name 'Spitfire' including photos and depictions of spitfire aircraft in RAF WW2 markings (livery) (including Battle of Britain livery). Moreover, the specific watch model ('Spitfire') and associated promotional material produced and exhibited by IWC is at odds with the historical record in several respects including:

    supply arrangements for the RAF (contrary to the association made in the photos of the IWC promotional materials) and more broadly in terms of economic and material relations (and further aspects as indicated) with the German government and German forces during WW2 and particularly before a shift c. 1944. Regarding the latter, when the outcome of the war was inevitable several Swiss manufacturers adjusted their relations, including apparently IWC. Others did not and had been firm in their commitment to support the UK and Commonwealth and later allied forces against the Nazis (e.g. Breitling, Omega, JLC etc who made special arrangements to do so and in some cases at personal risk to the owner and staff under pressure even when in Switzerland from various quarters).

    There were complexities and much political pressure meaning some manufacturers did supply Axis forces in small quantities whilst being firmly in the UK/Commonwealth and later larger Allied camp in terms of their watch supply arrangements.

    IWC were not, to my knowledge, supplying UK and Commonwealth forces officially or in any significant quantity if at all until c. 1944 as noted above (the Mk X) and were and had been supplying the German war effort clearly in view of the volume of their exports and arrangements.

    Notably, IWC was and is located on the border with Germany where there are close ties of various kinds to to Germany. It's also noteworthy that IWC was caught up in the 'mistaken' bombing of Schaffhausen later in the war by US bombers. Reparations were paid, though some believe it was not a mistake but more a warming...

    Hope that clarifies.

    Cheerio,

    AP.
    Thank you for a very Interesting couple of posts; with hindsight it's amazing with that history that IWC would subsequently try to link their product to the Battle of Britain era Spitfire.
    There is a strange irony with Christopher Ward releasing a watch based around the clock used in the Me109 (amongst others) whilst IWC focus on the Spitfire - at least with Messerschmidt closing many years ago there shouldn't be any trademark issues!
    I understood that Rolex were also supportive of the allied cause sending their watches to Officers in PoW camps and the like as well as giving rise to their Air King series amongst others.
    Funny old thing - history!



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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshiremadmick View Post
    How do we define “luxury watch maker”.
    I personally think that any watch that sits in the £2k plus bracket is a luxury.
    I know that to some on here that’s just beer money.






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    Personally I don’t define luxury by price,I would consider a £50,000 diamond encrusted Rolex as vulgar rather than luxury.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by adg31 View Post
    Thank you for a very Interesting couple of posts; with hindsight it's amazing with that history that IWC would subsequently try to link their product to the Battle of Britain era Spitfire.
    There is a strange irony with Christopher Ward releasing a watch based around the clock used in the Me109 (amongst others) whilst IWC focus on the Spitfire - at least with Messerschmidt closing many years ago there shouldn't be any trademark issues!
    I understood that Rolex were also supportive of the allied cause sending their watches to Officers in PoW camps and the like as well as giving rise to their Air King series amongst others.
    Funny old thing - history!



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    Many thanks.

    Rolex is interesting. Earlier in the war there were 'issues' to put it mildly...
    The initiative re Officers in PoW camps came later, and one could argue when the tide had turned.

    The watch houses I noted (Breitling, Omega, JLC) were very clearly pro-British from the start of the war and through thick and thin.
    Others (not all others) were pro-German or even pro-Nazi one could reasonably say.

    Cheerio,

    AP.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt View Post
    To be fair, Rolex did have a long, but ultimately unsuccessful, connection with Everest. While the first serious attempt on Everest demonstrably used Borgel, with George Mallory's Borgel recovered and now at the Royal Geographical Society. This assault may or may not have succeeded, but the next generation to attack the mountain generally wore Rolex, a fact Rolex is quick to point out. Eric Shipton, for example, wore one of the very first Oysters, in silver. while John Noel carried an Elgin pocket watch. Both with screw down front and back.

    Shipton carried on wearing an early Oyster but was the victim of an establishment coup which saw him replaced by Hunt. Post war, the Swiss '52 expedition was equipped with Rolex and failed. The '53 expedition was equipped with watches, (A409) alarm clocks (KA22) and a profusion of instrumentation by Smiths. Rolex provided Oysters (6098). In addition, Griffith Pugh, the man who cracked diet, hydration, acclimatisation and oxygen rates, allowing the expedition to succeed, wore an Omega (CK2287) chronograph with a 321 movement.

    The first, and unsuccessful) assault team comprising of Tom Bourdillon and Charles Evans both wore Oysters. However, their technically advanced rebreather system failed and they had to retreat. Hillary and Tenzing, the strongest climbers of the team, but both 'colonials' and lower down the pecking order, made a second assault using oxygen tech basically unchanged since Mallory. Contrary to a lot of internet claims, and indeed claims later made by the family of Tenzing (that Tenzing wore a gold Rolex Datejust given to him the year before) both were wearing one watch - the Smiths A409. Hillary's is currently in the Science Museum. Tenzing's, worn on an 18mm Bonclip bracelet and clearly (and unclearly) visible in more than a few RGS photographs and seconds of film seems to have disappeared, as have the eleven other Smith's watches and well over half of the Rolex.

    So Rolex were, from '21 to '53 at least, intimately involved in failed attempts on Everest. If you want the watches that made it to the top, you are looking for a Smiths A409 (or at least a variant of it that's almost a Benson) or an expedition (rather than military) 1915 Borgel with a Fontainemelon 1 movement. Like so:



    I think Mallory made it...
    Thank you, I find this a fascinating subject; most especially the Mallory information.

    As an aside discussions here https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...hlight=Tensing and here http://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showt...miths-and-mine

  8. #108
    Grand Master SimonK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.Pottinger View Post
    Well, reading what I wrote I don't believe I did state that "ostensibly, IWC was de fact to the only Swiss supplier of B-Uhr watches to the Luftwaffe [etc]".
    To be clear, I did not mention B-Uhr watches either, nor did I state or imply that IWC was the only Swiss watch manufacturer who supplied German forces during WW2. I'm sorry you thought I did state that.


    AP.
    I wasn't questioning the facts of what you wrote just, rather pedantically, your use of the word 'ostensibly' (apparently or purportedly, but perhaps not actually). There was nothing apparent, purported or not actual about IWC supplying the Nazi war machine. Odd too that in a conversation about watches and aeorplanes you talk about U-boats, not mentioning at all the fact that it wasn't Commonwealth fighter pilots who were wearing their watches but rather German navigators.

    The IWC Mk. XI was procured by the MOD in 1949 and Spitfires were still being operated in the early fifties. I suppose a Spitfire Mk. XIX pilot could, ostensibly, have worn an IWC.

  9. #109
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    Jaguar to sue Christopher Ward

    The Mark 11 was a navigator’s watch (as was the B-Uhr), not a pilot’s watch...another twisting of the narrative by IWC to fit their marketing strategy.
    Anyway, thread drift...

  10. #110
    Edited for brevity's sake only:
    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt View Post
    In addition, Griffith Pugh, the man who cracked diet, hydration, acclimatisation and oxygen rates, allowing the expedition to succeed, wore an Omega (CK2287) chronograph with a 321 movement.

    So Rolex were, from '21 to '53 at least, intimately involved in failed attempts on Everest. If you want the watches that made it to the top, you are looking for a Smiths A409 (or at least a variant of it that's almost a Benson) or an expedition (rather than military) 1915 Borgel with a Fontainemelon 1 movement. Like so:

    I think Mallory made it...
    Have you read Pugh's daughter's excellent account of his medical research and the assistance provided on the 53 expedition; Everest - The First Ascent: The untold story of Griffith Pughi It's a fantastic read. I wasn't aware that he used an Omega nor that that 321 or "27 CHRO C12 T2" as it was then called was developed as early as it was, e.g. in the 1940s.

    I'd love to think that Mallory made it to the top but that of course is only half way. The Northeast Ridge Route with the three steps was not successfully achieved until 1960, so it does make it seem doubtful they made it in 1924. But who knows? Perhaps, one day his or Irvine's cameras will be found, with what would be astonishing proof.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkpw View Post
    Edited for brevity's sake only:

    Have you read Pugh's daughter's excellent account of his medical research and the assistance provided on the 53 expedition; Everest - The First Ascent: The untold story of Griffith Pughi It's a fantastic read. I wasn't aware that he used an Omega nor that that 321 or "27 CHRO C12 T2" as it was then called was developed as early as it was, e.g. in the 1940s.

    I'd love to think that Mallory made it to the top but that of course is only half way. The Northeast Ridge Route with the three steps was not successfully achieved until 1960, so it does make it seem doubtful they made it in 1924. But who knows? Perhaps, one day his or Irvine's cameras will be found, with what would be astonishing proof.
    I haven't read the book by Pugh's daughter yet, but I certainly intend to. Most of the developments between this post and the earlier posts linked to by slopingroof are as a result of rather a long time spent at the Royal Geographical Society digging through their archives. Some of it is written up here:

    http://www.intlwatchleague.com/showt...114#post425114

    I really do think that Mallory made it, but was almost immediately lethally undermined by a dramatic drop in pressure, heavy winds and a blizzard.

    I'm less concerned by the fact that the Northeast ridge route wasn't achieved until 1960 as none of the attempts between 1924 and thirty eight even got to the base of the route due to weather, incompetence or sickness.

    The route was not available to any climbers from the start of the war and then Tibet was invaded by China, closing it to everyone. The route then fell to the Chinese party despite none of them having climbed before prior to beginning preparations five years before. It was an incompetent and blunt force expedition. They literally built a road to base camp, brought in a fortune in supplies and literally carried ladders to overcome their inability to climb or scout terrain.

    Mallory was the finest climber of his generation, had trained with the very best and was at the height of his powers. Both climbers were rowing blues in superb cardiovascular condition. Odell's final sighting originally placed them much higher "on ridge nearing base of final pyramid" were the exact words in his diary at the time. He only changed this to a position much lower after conversations with others. When it comes to witnesses, what they first write down is the most reliable information. Prior to the pressure drop about two hours after the final sighting, Mallory and Irvine had absolutely superb conditions and could have easily made the climb up the final snowfield.
    Last edited by M4tt; 21st September 2018 at 21:39.

  12. #112
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    A wonderful story...one always harbours a hope that they may have done it, without ever wanting to belittle the achievements of 1953.

    Incidentally, Andrew Irvine (Merton) rowed twice in the Oxford Blue Boat (1922 and ‘23). I understand that whilst George Mallory rowed for Magdalene College in the Edwardian era he never gained a Cambridge Rowing Blue.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt View Post
    I haven't read the book by Pugh's daughter yet, but I certainly intend to. Most of the developments between this post and the earlier posts linked to by slopingroof are as a result of rather a long time spent at the Royal Geographical Society digging through their archives. Some of it is written up here:

    http://www.intlwatchleague.com/showt...114#post425114

    I really do think that Mallory made it, but was almost immediately lethally undermined by a dramatic drop in pressure, heavy winds and a blizzard.
    Many thanks for the very interesting link, really enjoyed the read and love the Borgel.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonK View Post
    I wasn't questioning the facts of what you wrote just, rather pedantically, your use of the word 'ostensibly' (apparently or purportedly, but perhaps not actually). There was nothing apparent, purported or not actual about IWC supplying the Nazi war machine. Odd too that in a conversation about watches and aeorplanes you talk about U-boats, not mentioning at all the fact that it wasn't Commonwealth fighter pilots who were wearing their watches but rather German navigators.

    The IWC Mk. XI was procured by the MOD in 1949 and Spitfires were still being operated in the early fifties. I suppose a Spitfire Mk. XIX pilot could, ostensibly, have worn an IWC.
    Thanks for your reply.

    'Ostensibly' is apt, as stated, imho.

    Not sure what your point is about 'noting apparent, purported or not actual about IWC supplying the Nazi war machine.' Indeed, the matter pointed out is quite the opposite, i.e. regarding supplying and supporting the UK and Commonwealth war effort (and later US, too), while promotional material draws associations and implies the contrary.

    I differ with regard to the note about U-boats; it's pertinent to supply relations and alignments in historical context. It is in this context that claims about associations have been made and that are misleading.

    Your point about IWC watches being worn by German Navigators is correct, but that is by-the-bye in terms of IWC's 'Spitfire' watch model and associations drawn with the RAF (and Commonwealth) in the Battle of Britain by the company. Notably German pilots also wore IWC watches. Further, Germany aircrew were supplied with JLC watches (there was a specific contract), but JLC were very much aligned with the UK and Commonwealth (and later the US when it joined the war later on). This is also as there were intense pressures and politics involved but generally very clear alignments.

    Regarding the Mk11 contract: this is also why I took care to note the Battle of Britain livery in the IWC material, and also broader alignments including supply for U-boats by IWC ;-)

    The Mk11 was issued to RAF and Commonwealth pilots, too but was probably more likely to be apportioned to navigators given its rating and scarcity (and given discussions with aircrew from that era).

    Cheerio,

    AP.

  15. #115

    Jaguar to sue Christopher Ward

    Quote Originally Posted by A.Pottinger View Post
    Thanks for your reply.

    'Ostensibly' is apt, as stated, imho.

    Not sure what your point is about 'noting apparent, purported or not actual about IWC supplying the Nazi war machine.' Indeed, the matter pointed out is quite the opposite, i.e. regarding supplying and supporting the UK and Commonwealth war effort (and later US, too), while promotional material draws associations and implies the contrary.

    I differ with regard to the note about U-boats; it's pertinent to supply relations and alignments in historical context. It is in this context that claims about associations have been made and that are misleading.

    Your point about IWC watches being worn by German Navigators is correct, but that is by-the-bye in terms of IWC's 'Spitfire' watch model and associations drawn with the RAF (and Commonwealth) in the Battle of Britain by the company. Notably German pilots also wore IWC watches. Further, Germany aircrew were supplied with JLC watches (there was a specific contract), but JLC were very much aligned with the UK and Commonwealth (and later the US when it joined the war later on). This is also as there were intense pressures and politics involved but generally very clear alignments.

    Regarding the Mk11 contract: this is also why I took care to note the Battle of Britain livery in the IWC material, and also broader alignments including supply for U-boats by IWC ;-)

    The Mk11 was issued to RAF and Commonwealth pilots, too but was probably more likely to be apportioned to navigators given its rating and scarcity (and given discussions with aircrew from that era).

    Cheerio,

    AP.
    Possibly having a swastika sporting Ju87 would not have been the best publicity for IWC - although marginally better than a He111 going down in flames silhouetted against the fires of Coventry or a Me110 languishing in the surf off a British beach...
    Whilst replying I was struck by how strange it is that bomber aircraft are seen in a far less 'romantic' light than fighter aircraft which still seemingly carry the image of chivalrous knights of the sky.
    This perception thereby allows even a British brand such as Christopher Ward to include an Me109 edition in their line-up alongside models honouring Spitfires and Hurricanes - as well as the pilots who flew them.
    No wonder the Bomber Boys felt left out.

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    Last edited by adg31; 24th September 2018 at 14:54.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by adg31 View Post
    Whilst replying I was struck by how strange it is that bomber aircraft are seen in a far less 'romantic' light than fighter aircraft which still seemingly carry the image of chivalrous knights of the sky.
    Well, the one-on-one, warrior against warrior comparison is, perhaps, easier to stomach than the blanket bombing of civilians in their homes...

    Sure, no war is pleasant, but WW2 bombing was pretty indiscriminate (or even deliberate) in killing civilians, compared with that of today, on both sides.

    M

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    Sure, no war is pleasant, but WW2 bombing was pretty indiscriminate (or even deliberate) in killing civilians, compared with that of today, on both sides.

    M
    Hmmm, might be a stretch to suggest that the world is more “discriminate” today - civilians in Yemen or Syria (to name but 2) may disagree.

    Anyway, speaking of crimes against humanity, let’s get back to slagging off those naughty people at CW...


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  18. #118

    Jaguar to sue Christopher Ward

    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    Well, the one-on-one, warrior against warrior comparison is, perhaps, easier to stomach than the blanket bombing of civilians in their homes...

    Sure, no war is pleasant, but WW2 bombing was pretty indiscriminate (or even deliberate) in killing civilians, compared with that of today, on both sides.

    M
    I'd possibly agree with you when looking at one-on-one dogfights but I'm not sure that strafing runs against refugees seeking to escape the conflict was all that chivalrous. In fact you could argue that it was worse than area bombing because you actually saw the individual people you were attacking rather than just an anonymous city far below.
    Unfortunately in the early years of the war available bomb aiming technology was not too accurate. Whilst it improved significantly throughout the war following the introduction of new bombsights and Master Bombers Albert Speer did say that if the allies had continued the deliberate firebombing of German cities it would have led to an earlier collapse of their will to fight on.
    Either way war - and the deliberate killing of others - remains a ghastly business best avoided.


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    Last edited by adg31; 24th September 2018 at 16:49.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by watchfan_66 View Post
    Some interesting viewpoints on this here too:

    https://www.christopherwardforum.com...055eda1f8c0a61
    You have already posted the link to this on this very thread (The CW thread was started by a TZUK forum member by the way)

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by adg31 View Post
    There is a strange irony with Christopher Ward releasing a watch based around the clock used in the Me109 (amongst others) whilst IWC focus on the Spitfire - at least with Messerschmidt closing many years ago there shouldn't be any trademark issues!
    I really like that CW released that model. I won't be buying one due to cost but it's nice to see something different - I'm pretty sure enough time has elapsed that most people don't feel funny about it. I really like some of the styles of the Junkers and Zeppelin watches....Germany certainly has some very attractive and rugged styled timepieces.

  21. #121
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    What happened to Watchfan_66? Gone very quiet.

  22. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by bwest76 View Post
    Personally I don’t define luxury by price,I would consider a £50,000 diamond encrusted Rolex as vulgar rather than luxury.
    Coco Chanel (let’s not get into her politics) said ‘Some people think luxury is the opposite of poverty. It is not. It is the opposite of vulgarity’.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny View Post
    What happened to Watchfan_66? Gone very quiet.
    So has the infamous Tilly. Coincidence?

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonConnell View Post
    Coco Chanel (let’s not get into her politics) said ‘Some people think luxury is the opposite of poverty. It is not. It is the opposite of vulgarity’.
    Great quote.

  25. #125
    Never been keen with the term luxury with regard to watches as I always connect it with ‘luxury toilet tissue’ which you get on practically all toilet paper. So the term can be applied to practically anything after that...

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by PIERS (UK) View Post
    Never been keen with the term luxury with regard to watches as I always connect it with ‘luxury toilet tissue’ which you get on practically all toilet paper. So the term can be applied to practically anything after that...
    So a luxury Rolex is only good for toilet duty I like the thinking

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