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Thread: Jaguar to sue Christopher Ward

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by watchfan_66 View Post
    Love a bit of AC/DC in the morning.

    The CW (Not) Independent Forum is administered and moderated by a controlling clique, several of whom frequent this medium also. The brand and forum prides itself on a no smoke and mirrors policy which is the biggest irony. (C60 COSC-GATE anyone?)

    Several honest forum members are contributing well to the ongoing Jag v Ward thread over there. It's them people ought to listen to.

    Just for info, I hope CW don't go down the pan over this, but I do hope it wakes them up that alleged copyright /trademark infringement was always going to bite them on the bum (as it seemingly has done before: LTA and Becketts come to mind). If the forum could drop the whole 'we're independently run' (but funded, run and owned by CW) charade too that would be good.

    Have a good day.
    Lovely...

    NOW, next time you feel the need to splurge your diatribe about the CW Forum and its moderators on this forum, just take a moment to take a deep breath and remember 99% of us have now read it in one form or another many times over the last few weeks and wonder what you're actually contributing to this forum.

    You're entitled to your view, but it's becoming mighty boring now...

    M

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by watchfan_66 View Post

    The CW (Not) Independent Forum is administered and moderated by a controlling clique, several of whom frequent this medium also. The brand and forum prides itself on a no smoke and mirrors policy which is the biggest irony. (C60 COSC-GATE anyone?)... ... If the forum could drop the whole 'we're independently run' (but funded, run and owned by CW) charade too that would be good.
    Suppose it isn't independent. So what. Who cares (apart from one member). Why complain here? Go to CW and complain. There are 13355 members here so you represent 0.0075%, which is almost nothing.

  3. #103
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    So, is the CW forum independent or not?

    😂

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost Chilli View Post
    So, is the CW forum independent or not?

    Stirrer! :)
    Last edited by Tiny; 18th September 2018 at 23:04.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny View Post
    Suppose it isn't independent. So what. Who cares (apart from one member). Why complain here? Go to CW and complain. There are 13355 members here so you represent 0.0075%, which is almost nothing.
    In light of the reason for this thread and CW's pride in transparency, openness, no smoke and mirrors tactics etc then I think people do/will care if so much BS seeps through the gaps. If CW strive to tell us that their forum has nothing to do with them, yet they own, run and fund it, what else about this brand can we/can we not believe?

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by watchfan_66 View Post
    In light of the reason for this thread and CW's pride in transparency, openness, no smoke and mirrors tactics etc then I think people do/will care if so much BS seeps through the gaps. If CW strive to tell us that their forum has nothing to do with them, yet they own, run and fund it, what else about this brand can we/can we not believe?
    Give it a rest will you.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by watchfan_66 View Post
    In light of the reason for this thread and CW's pride in transparency, openness, no smoke and mirrors tactics etc then I think people do/will care if so much BS seeps through the gaps. If CW strive to tell us that their forum has nothing to do with them, yet they own, run and fund it, what else about this brand can we/can we not believe?
    Everything/nothing.

    They are subject to a lawsuit over trade mark/name association currently.

    It will pan out over time.

    They copy genre/type and do ok at it.

    To much protesting methinks.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by watchfan_66 View Post
    In light of the reason for this thread and CW's pride in transparency, openness, no smoke and mirrors tactics etc then I think people do/will care if so much BS seeps through the gaps. If CW strive to tell us that their forum has nothing to do with them, yet they own, run and fund it, what else about this brand can we/can we not believe?
    What "lack of transparency, openness, smoke and mirrors tactics, BS seeping through the gaps"? Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. When someone just harps on and on and on and on and on and on, with so much emotion, it negates their argument because their views are seen as unbalanced and biased and they very quickly become irrelevant.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by watchfan_66 View Post
    In light of the reason for this thread and CW's pride in transparency, openness, no smoke and mirrors tactics etc then I think people do/will care if so much BS seeps through the gaps. If CW strive to tell us that their forum has nothing to do with them, yet they own, run and fund it, what else about this brand can we/can we not believe?
    The records stuck. The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck...................

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by watchfan_66 View Post
    In light of the reason for this thread and CW's pride in transparency, openness, no smoke and mirrors tactics etc then I think people do/will care if so much BS seeps through the gaps. If CW strive to tell us that their forum has nothing to do with them, yet they own, run and fund it, what else about this brand can we/can we not believe?
    This is a clear case of Watchism, the blatant prejudice against a certain brand of watches!

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny View Post
    This is a clear case of Watchism, the blatant prejudice against a certain brand of watches!
    Hey Tiny. Are you?

  12. #112
    Would it be wrong to say that the Bremont Jaguar watches look like they were made over at CW?

    https://www.bremont.com/collections/watches-mens-jaguar

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkpw View Post
    Would it be wrong to say that the Bremont Jaguar watches look like they were made over at CW?

    https://www.bremont.com/collections/watches-mens-jaguar
    CW launched a very similar model at more or less the same time. All very strange.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by watchfan_66 View Post
    In light of the reason for this thread and CW's pride in transparency, openness, no smoke and mirrors tactics etc then I think people do/will care if so much BS seeps through the gaps. If CW strive to tell us that their forum has nothing to do with them, yet they own, run and fund it, what else about this brand can we/can we not believe?
    Good god man. Quit it. We are all bored of your obsession! You are like a one man crusade give us all a break from it.


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  15. #115
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    You guys don't freaking get it. It's a a small part of a huge conspiracy in conjunction with Monsanto, the illuminati and the lizard men. Probably Prince Phillip too.

    We're through the looking glass here, people.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lampoc View Post
    You guys don't freaking get it.

    We're through the looking glass here, people.
    Absolutely 😉

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny View Post
    The records stuck. The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck.The records stuck...................
    I wouldn't mind so much if you'd only missed the apostrophe once.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkpw View Post
    Would it be wrong to say that the Bremont Jaguar watches look like they were made over at CW?

    https://www.bremont.com/collections/watches-mens-jaguar
    Yes it would be wrong.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogroover View Post
    I wouldn't mind so much if you'd only missed the apostrophe once.
    😅😆

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by monogroover View Post
    I wouldn't mind so much if you'd only missed the apostrophe once.
    Sorry. Here they are: ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by woodacre1983 View Post
    Good god man. Quit it. We are all bored of your obsession! You are like a one man crusade give us all a break from it.


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    lol. I know, right? What is with this guy? He is obsessed with CW.

  22. #122
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    Can someone explain the CW hate? Don't own one (yet?) But they are one of the few "affordable" brands doing anything interesting, and at times genuinely innovative, with movements on their own.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Camulos View Post
    lol. I know, right? What is with this guy? He is obsessed with CW.
    I'm guessing he's a D!ck....

  24. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by MrBanks View Post
    Yes it would be wrong.
    So long as you're sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimbobIJones View Post
    Can someone explain the CW hate? Don't own one (yet?) But they are one of the few "affordable" brands doing anything interesting, and at times genuinely innovative, with movements on their own.
    Hate is a strong word. I personally find most of their designs, like Bremont's, underwhelmingly anodyne. As a brand, they've attracted negative comments for that, changing their logo often and in an unsophisticated direction and for offering less value for money than they did previously. How fair all of that is, is in the eye of the beholder.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by watchfan_66 View Post
    Hey Tiny. Are you?
    WINNER!

    The last port of call when losing a "discussion" from a desperate person, the personal insult.

  26. #126
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    As to the actual subject.

    That's for the courts to decide, here's a radical thought, let's wait until the verdict........................... Nah second thoughts that'll never work!!

  27. #127

    Jaguar to sue Christopher Ward

    Quote Originally Posted by Alansmithee View Post
    The more I dig into this, the more I think this is going to be a claim of passing off -




    From my experience when launching a new product or brand we would do a quick trademark check here: https://www.gov.uk/search-for-trademark
    Looking today JLR appear to have registered D TYPE in a number of classifications which would/should ring alarm bells if you were looking to use the name.
    Again, in my experience it would also lead to a discussion with the trademark owner. In many cases, if their trademark was in a different classification, we would be able to come to an amicable arrangement based around a non-compete agreement.
    Problems usually only arise if this step is disregarded - or overlooked.
    I believe that Montblanc provided a classic example of this with the Boheme range which was first launched as Rouge et Noir but rebranded after a trademark violation of the 'et Noir' element.
    However, whilst the Christopher Ward C70 D Type edition references a model which contains a small fragment of a specific vehicle from that marque, the bulk of the marketing materials discuss the car and its designer without making any specific claim for direct descent to that wider brand.
    This creation of brand linkage by way of association is always an interesting subject. For example, it appears that many believe that the Rolex Explorer was the first watch worn on the summit of Everest. This belief has been reinforced with images of the Explorer imposed over views of Mount Everest - without their having ever made a specific claim to that achievement.
    It will certainly be interesting to follow developments.



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    Last edited by adg31; 20th September 2018 at 16:13.

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by nunya View Post
    WINNER!

    The last port of call when losing a "discussion" from a desperate person, the personal insult.
    Ha! Just some light entertainment!

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by reggie747 View Post
    I'm guessing he's a D!ck....
    Hilarious. Says a scouser with a pic of Lewis Hamilton.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by adg31 View Post
    From my experience when launching a new product or brand we would do a quick trademark check here: https://www.gov.uk/search-for-trademark
    Looking today JLR appear to have registered D TYPE in a number of classifications which would/should ring alarm bells if you were looking to use the name.
    Again, in my experience it would also lead to a discussion with the trademark owner. In many cases, if their trademark was in a different classification, we would be able to come to an amicable arrangement based around a non-compete agreement.
    Problems usually only arise if this step is disregarded - or overlooked.
    I believe that Montblanc provided a classic example of this with the Boheme range which was first launched as Rouge et Noir but rebranded after a trademark violation of the 'et Noir' element.
    However, whilst the Christopher Ward C70 D Type edition references a model which contains a small fragment of a specific vehicle from that marque, the bulk of the marketing materials discuss the car and its designer without making any specific claim for direct descent to that wider brand.
    This creation of brand linkage by way of association is always an interesting subject. For example, it appears that many believe that the Rolex Explorer was the first watch worn on the summit of Everest. This belief has been reinforced with images of the Explorer imposed over views of Mount Everest - without their having ever made a specific claim to that achievement.
    It will certainly be interesting to follow developments.



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    It's very interesting, I agree. I remember some years ago that IWC launched the 'Spitfire' model with photos and stands with prominent photographs of Supermarine Spitfires, including in WW2 livery.

    As I remarked to an historian known who was doing work for IWC that IWC ostensibly supplied German forces during WW2 (e.g. U-boat instruments among other items) but neither had a contract with nor are known to have supplied British and Commonwealth Air Forces. Indeed, there were tensions around IWC's links in that regard in official circles during the war.

    Thus, association, even if historically inaccurate, seems not to stop some corporations from endeavouring to establish it and a 'mystique' including in promotional material. Indeed, even the larger more established ones.

    (Notably, IWC did receive a contract from the UK/Commonwealth forces after the tide of the war had changed (for the Mk X, not for air force use) and the UK were seeking manufacturers at that point amid restricted supply and other considerations. After the war for the famous Mk XI (for airforce use) saw a contract tendered to IWC and JLC).

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.Pottinger View Post
    It's very interesting, I agree. I remember some years ago that IWC launched the 'Spitfire' model with photos and stands with prominent photographs of Supermarine Spitfires, including in WW2 livery.

    As I remarked to an historian known who was doing work for IWC that IWC ostensibly supplied German forces during WW2 (e.g. U-boat instruments among other items) but neither had a contract with nor are known to have supplied British and Commonwealth Air Forces. Indeed, there were tensions around IWC's links in that regard in official circles during the war.

    Thus, association, even if historically inaccurate, seems not to stop some corporations from endeavouring to establish it and a 'mystique' including in promotional material. Indeed, even the larger more established ones.

    (Notably, IWC did receive a contract from the UK/Commonwealth forces after the tide of the war had changed (for the Mk X, not for air force use) and the UK were seeking manufacturers at that point amid restricted supply and other considerations. After the war for the famous Mk XI (for airforce use) saw a contract tendered to IWC and JLC).
    That's a fascinating insight. Thank you for sharing.

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.Pottinger View Post

    As I remarked to an historian known who was doing work for IWC that IWC ostensibly supplied German forces during WW2 (e.g. U-boat instruments among other items)
    I don't see why you say ostensibly, IWC was de facto the only Swiss supplier of B-Uhr watches to the Luftwaffe alongside four German manufacturers.

  33. #133
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    This creation of brand linkage by way of association is always an interesting subject. For example, it appears that many believe that the Rolex Explorer was the first watch worn on the summit of Everest. This belief has been reinforced with images of the Explorer imposed over views of Mount Everest - without their having ever made a specific claim to that achievement.
    It will certainly be interesting to follow developments.
    To be fair, Rolex did have a long, but ultimately unsuccessful, connection with Everest. While the first serious attempt on Everest demonstrably used Borgel, with George Mallory's Borgel recovered and now at the Royal Geographical Society. This assault may or may not have succeeded, but the next generation to attack the mountain generally wore Rolex, a fact Rolex is quick to point out. Eric Shipton, for example, wore one of the very first Oysters, in silver. while John Noel carried an Elgin pocket watch. Both with screw down front and back.

    Shipton carried on wearing an early Oyster but was the victim of an establishment coup which saw him replaced by Hunt. Post war, the Swiss '52 expedition was equipped with Rolex and failed. The '53 expedition was equipped with watches, (A409) alarm clocks (KA22) and a profusion of instrumentation by Smiths. Rolex provided Oysters (6098). In addition, Griffith Pugh, the man who cracked diet, hydration, acclimatisation and oxygen rates, allowing the expedition to succeed, wore an Omega (CK2287) chronograph with a 321 movement.

    The first, and unsuccessful) assault team comprising of Tom Bourdillon and Charles Evans both wore Oysters. However, their technically advanced rebreather system failed and they had to retreat. Hillary and Tenzing, the strongest climbers of the team, but both 'colonials' and lower down the pecking order, made a second assault using oxygen tech basically unchanged since Mallory. Contrary to a lot of internet claims, and indeed claims later made by the family of Tenzing (that Tenzing wore a gold Rolex Datejust given to him the year before) both were wearing one watch - the Smiths A409. Hillary's is currently in the Science Museum. Tenzing's, worn on an 18mm Bonclip bracelet and clearly (and unclearly) visible in more than a few RGS photographs and seconds of film seems to have disappeared, as have the eleven other Smith's watches and well over half of the Rolex.

    So Rolex were, from '21 to '53 at least, intimately involved in failed attempts on Everest. If you want the watches that made it to the top, you are looking for a Smiths A409 (or at least a variant of it that's almost a Benson) or an expedition (rather than military) 1915 Borgel with a Fontainemelon 1 movement. Like so:



    I think Mallory made it...
    Last edited by M4tt; Yesterday at 00:20.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by SimonK View Post
    I don't see why you say ostensibly, IWC was de facto the only Swiss supplier of B-Uhr watches to the Luftwaffe alongside four German manufacturers.
    Well, reading what I wrote I don't believe I did state that "ostensibly, IWC was de fact to the only Swiss supplier of B-Uhr watches to the Luftwaffe [etc]".
    To be clear, I did not mention B-Uhr watches either, nor did I state or imply that IWC was the only Swiss watch manufacturer who supplied German forces during WW2. I'm sorry you thought I did state that.

    The over-arching point being made (and quite clearly I believe) was (and is) that IWC did not officially supply the UK RAF and Commonwealth air forces during WW2 yet it advertises a model of watch under the name 'Spitfire' including photos and depictions of spitfire aircraft in RAF WW2 markings (livery) (including Battle of Britain livery). Moreover, the specific watch model ('Spitfire') and associated promotional material produced and exhibited by IWC is at odds with the historical record in several respects including:

    supply arrangements for the RAF (contrary to the association made in the photos of the IWC promotional materials) and more broadly in terms of economic and material relations (and further aspects as indicated) with the German government and German forces during WW2 and particularly before a shift c. 1944. Regarding the latter, when the outcome of the war was inevitable several Swiss manufacturers adjusted their relations, including apparently IWC. Others did not and had been firm in their commitment to support the UK and Commonwealth and later allied forces against the Nazis (e.g. Breitling, Omega, JLC etc who made special arrangements to do so and in some cases at personal risk to the owner and staff under pressure even when in Switzerland from various quarters).

    There were complexities and much political pressure meaning some manufacturers did supply Axis forces in small quantities whilst being firmly in the UK/Commonwealth and later larger Allied camp in terms of their watch supply arrangements.

    IWC were not, to my knowledge, supplying UK and Commonwealth forces officially or in any significant quantity if at all until c. 1944 as noted above (the Mk X) and were and had been supplying the German war effort clearly in view of the volume of their exports and arrangements.

    Notably, IWC was and is located on the border with Germany where there are close ties of various kinds to to Germany. It's also noteworthy that IWC was caught up in the 'mistaken' bombing of Schaffhausen later in the war by US bombers. Reparations were paid, though some believe it was not a mistake but more a warming...

    Hope that clarifies.

    Cheerio,

    AP.

  35. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by A.Pottinger View Post
    Well, reading what I wrote I don't believe I did state that "ostensibly, IWC was de fact to the only Swiss supplier of B-Uhr watches to the Luftwaffe [etc]".
    To be clear, I did not mention B-Uhr watches either, nor did I state or imply that IWC was the only Swiss watch manufacturer who supplied German forces during WW2. I'm sorry you thought I did state that.

    The over-arching point being made (and quite clearly I believe) was (and is) that IWC did not officially supply the UK RAF and Commonwealth air forces during WW2 yet it advertises a model of watch under the name 'Spitfire' including photos and depictions of spitfire aircraft in RAF WW2 markings (livery) (including Battle of Britain livery). Moreover, the specific watch model ('Spitfire') and associated promotional material produced and exhibited by IWC is at odds with the historical record in several respects including:

    supply arrangements for the RAF (contrary to the association made in the photos of the IWC promotional materials) and more broadly in terms of economic and material relations (and further aspects as indicated) with the German government and German forces during WW2 and particularly before a shift c. 1944. Regarding the latter, when the outcome of the war was inevitable several Swiss manufacturers adjusted their relations, including apparently IWC. Others did not and had been firm in their commitment to support the UK and Commonwealth and later allied forces against the Nazis (e.g. Breitling, Omega, JLC etc who made special arrangements to do so and in some cases at personal risk to the owner and staff under pressure even when in Switzerland from various quarters).

    There were complexities and much political pressure meaning some manufacturers did supply Axis forces in small quantities whilst being firmly in the UK/Commonwealth and later larger Allied camp in terms of their watch supply arrangements.

    IWC were not, to my knowledge, supplying UK and Commonwealth forces officially or in any significant quantity if at all until c. 1944 as noted above (the Mk X) and were and had been supplying the German war effort clearly in view of the volume of their exports and arrangements.

    Notably, IWC was and is located on the border with Germany where there are close ties of various kinds to to Germany. It's also noteworthy that IWC was caught up in the 'mistaken' bombing of Schaffhausen later in the war by US bombers. Reparations were paid, though some believe it was not a mistake but more a warming...

    Hope that clarifies.

    Cheerio,

    AP.
    Thank you for a very Interesting couple of posts; with hindsight it's amazing with that history that IWC would subsequently try to link their product to the Battle of Britain era Spitfire.
    There is a strange irony with Christopher Ward releasing a watch based around the clock used in the Me109 (amongst others) whilst IWC focus on the Spitfire - at least with Messerschmidt closing many years ago there shouldn't be any trademark issues!
    I understood that Rolex were also supportive of the allied cause sending their watches to Officers in PoW camps and the like as well as giving rise to their Air King series amongst others.
    Funny old thing - history!



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  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkshiremadmick View Post
    How do we define “luxury watch maker”.
    I personally think that any watch that sits in the £2k plus bracket is a luxury.
    I know that to some on here that’s just beer money.






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    Personally I don’t define luxury by price,I would consider a £50,000 diamond encrusted Rolex as vulgar rather than luxury.

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by adg31 View Post
    Thank you for a very Interesting couple of posts; with hindsight it's amazing with that history that IWC would subsequently try to link their product to the Battle of Britain era Spitfire.
    There is a strange irony with Christopher Ward releasing a watch based around the clock used in the Me109 (amongst others) whilst IWC focus on the Spitfire - at least with Messerschmidt closing many years ago there shouldn't be any trademark issues!
    I understood that Rolex were also supportive of the allied cause sending their watches to Officers in PoW camps and the like as well as giving rise to their Air King series amongst others.
    Funny old thing - history!



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    Many thanks.

    Rolex is interesting. Earlier in the war there were 'issues' to put it mildly...
    The initiative re Officers in PoW camps came later, and one could argue when the tide had turned.

    The watch houses I noted (Breitling, Omega, JLC) were very clearly pro-British from the start of the war and through thick and thin.
    Others (not all others) were pro-German or even pro-Nazi one could reasonably say.

    Cheerio,

    AP.

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt View Post
    To be fair, Rolex did have a long, but ultimately unsuccessful, connection with Everest. While the first serious attempt on Everest demonstrably used Borgel, with George Mallory's Borgel recovered and now at the Royal Geographical Society. This assault may or may not have succeeded, but the next generation to attack the mountain generally wore Rolex, a fact Rolex is quick to point out. Eric Shipton, for example, wore one of the very first Oysters, in silver. while John Noel carried an Elgin pocket watch. Both with screw down front and back.

    Shipton carried on wearing an early Oyster but was the victim of an establishment coup which saw him replaced by Hunt. Post war, the Swiss '52 expedition was equipped with Rolex and failed. The '53 expedition was equipped with watches, (A409) alarm clocks (KA22) and a profusion of instrumentation by Smiths. Rolex provided Oysters (6098). In addition, Griffith Pugh, the man who cracked diet, hydration, acclimatisation and oxygen rates, allowing the expedition to succeed, wore an Omega (CK2287) chronograph with a 321 movement.

    The first, and unsuccessful) assault team comprising of Tom Bourdillon and Charles Evans both wore Oysters. However, their technically advanced rebreather system failed and they had to retreat. Hillary and Tenzing, the strongest climbers of the team, but both 'colonials' and lower down the pecking order, made a second assault using oxygen tech basically unchanged since Mallory. Contrary to a lot of internet claims, and indeed claims later made by the family of Tenzing (that Tenzing wore a gold Rolex Datejust given to him the year before) both were wearing one watch - the Smiths A409. Hillary's is currently in the Science Museum. Tenzing's, worn on an 18mm Bonclip bracelet and clearly (and unclearly) visible in more than a few RGS photographs and seconds of film seems to have disappeared, as have the eleven other Smith's watches and well over half of the Rolex.

    So Rolex were, from '21 to '53 at least, intimately involved in failed attempts on Everest. If you want the watches that made it to the top, you are looking for a Smiths A409 (or at least a variant of it that's almost a Benson) or an expedition (rather than military) 1915 Borgel with a Fontainemelon 1 movement. Like so:



    I think Mallory made it...
    Thank you, I find this a fascinating subject; most especially the Mallory information.

    As an aside discussions here https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...hlight=Tensing and here http://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showt...miths-and-mine

  39. #139
    Grand Master SimonK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.Pottinger View Post
    Well, reading what I wrote I don't believe I did state that "ostensibly, IWC was de fact to the only Swiss supplier of B-Uhr watches to the Luftwaffe [etc]".
    To be clear, I did not mention B-Uhr watches either, nor did I state or imply that IWC was the only Swiss watch manufacturer who supplied German forces during WW2. I'm sorry you thought I did state that.


    AP.
    I wasn't questioning the facts of what you wrote just, rather pedantically, your use of the word 'ostensibly' (apparently or purportedly, but perhaps not actually). There was nothing apparent, purported or not actual about IWC supplying the Nazi war machine. Odd too that in a conversation about watches and aeorplanes you talk about U-boats, not mentioning at all the fact that it wasn't Commonwealth fighter pilots who were wearing their watches but rather German navigators.

    The IWC Mk. XI was procured by the MOD in 1949 and Spitfires were still being operated in the early fifties. I suppose a Spitfire Mk. XIX pilot could, ostensibly, have worn an IWC.

  40. #140
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    Jaguar to sue Christopher Ward

    The Mark 11 was a navigator’s watch (as was the B-Uhr), not a pilot’s watch...another twisting of the narrative by IWC to fit their marketing strategy.
    Anyway, thread drift...

  41. #141
    Edited for brevity's sake only:
    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt View Post
    In addition, Griffith Pugh, the man who cracked diet, hydration, acclimatisation and oxygen rates, allowing the expedition to succeed, wore an Omega (CK2287) chronograph with a 321 movement.

    So Rolex were, from '21 to '53 at least, intimately involved in failed attempts on Everest. If you want the watches that made it to the top, you are looking for a Smiths A409 (or at least a variant of it that's almost a Benson) or an expedition (rather than military) 1915 Borgel with a Fontainemelon 1 movement. Like so:

    I think Mallory made it...
    Have you read Pugh's daughter's excellent account of his medical research and the assistance provided on the 53 expedition; Everest - The First Ascent: The untold story of Griffith Pughi It's a fantastic read. I wasn't aware that he used an Omega nor that that 321 or "27 CHRO C12 T2" as it was then called was developed as early as it was, e.g. in the 1940s.

    I'd love to think that Mallory made it to the top but that of course is only half way. The Northeast Ridge Route with the three steps was not successfully achieved until 1960, so it does make it seem doubtful they made it in 1924. But who knows? Perhaps, one day his or Irvine's cameras will be found, with what would be astonishing proof.

  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkpw View Post
    Edited for brevity's sake only:

    Have you read Pugh's daughter's excellent account of his medical research and the assistance provided on the 53 expedition; Everest - The First Ascent: The untold story of Griffith Pughi It's a fantastic read. I wasn't aware that he used an Omega nor that that 321 or "27 CHRO C12 T2" as it was then called was developed as early as it was, e.g. in the 1940s.

    I'd love to think that Mallory made it to the top but that of course is only half way. The Northeast Ridge Route with the three steps was not successfully achieved until 1960, so it does make it seem doubtful they made it in 1924. But who knows? Perhaps, one day his or Irvine's cameras will be found, with what would be astonishing proof.
    I haven't read the book by Pugh's daughter yet, but I certainly intend to. Most of the developments between this post and the earlier posts linked to by slopingroof are as a result of rather a long time spent at the Royal Geographical Society digging through their archives. Some of it is written up here:

    http://www.intlwatchleague.com/showt...114#post425114

    I really do think that Mallory made it, but was almost immediately lethally undermined by a dramatic drop in pressure, heavy winds and a blizzard.

    I'm less concerned by the fact that the Northeast ridge route wasn't achieved until 1960 as none of the attempts between 1924 and thirty eight even got to the base of the route due to weather, incompetence or sickness.

    The route was not available to any climbers from the start of the war and then Tibet was invaded by China, closing it to everyone. The route then fell to the Chinese party despite none of them having climbed before prior to beginning preparations five years before. It was an incompetent and blunt force expedition. They literally built a road to base camp, brought in a fortune in supplies and literally carried ladders to overcome their inability to climb or scout terrain.

    Mallory was the finest climber of his generation, had trained with the very best and was at the height of his powers. Both climbers were rowing blues in superb cardiovascular condition. Odell's final sighting originally placed them much higher "on ridge nearing base of final pyramid" were the exact words in his diary at the time. He only changed this to a position much lower after conversations with others. When it comes to witnesses, what they first write down is the most reliable information. Prior to the pressure drop about two hours after the final sighting, Mallory and Irvine had absolutely superb conditions and could have easily made the climb up the final snowfield.
    Last edited by M4tt; Yesterday at 21:39.

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