Panerai Ebay purchase went wrong. Advice please

[witti]

I purchased a 3 weeks old Panerai on German Ebay from a private seller. He stated that it is the new model with the in house P.6000 movement.
However after some research (yes should have done before, my fault) it turned out that it is not the latest model and sporting the old ETA derivative which I'm not interested in.
It is the PAM00631 which seems to be renamed lately PAM00777. Seller put it right as 631 in the title however clearly stated in the description that it's the new P 6000 movement and not ETA. Quite misleading.
The two models are identical apart from the color of the hands. Stating that it was a limited edition I was thinking the hands were still from the older model, kind of transitional thing.
Long story short, the mistake in the description turned out BEFORE the seller sent out the watch. Now he is saying it's an OPII movement inside.
Seems like a simple cancelling of transaction. However the seller is a real a$$hole and still wants to send out the watch tomorrow.
No I need all the buyer protection Ebay and Paypal can offer, but how do you start when the item is not as described but it's not even in your hand.
I don't want to take it from the postman as I clearly asked the seller not to dispatch.
On top of that it is in Germany where I'm situated now but still not mastering the language.
Any view is appreciated!
Csaba

[thegreatdogwood]

I'm guessing you would be well advised to start the process anyway as if you had received the watch. In MyEbay purchases there will be an option to contact seller against the item.

That will bring up a list and one of them is the item not being as described. I think if you tick that it will register the item as being disputed on Ebay and the seller will be notified and given a timeframe and options to respond.

I would do that and send him a message separately re-stating that there is no point him sending it as you have opened a case for mis-description which Ebay will find in your favour on given the clear mis-description and he will be left out of pocket with postal charges if he still chooses to send the item. He would be well minded to accept the mis-description and the "virtual" return of the watch.

[verv]

Not much help to you but the ETA movement rather than the in house I would view as a blessing in disguise.
Other than that perhaps contact eBay NOW and explain the issue, before filing a SNAD on arrival.

[paskinner]

Fortunately, you are well protected, although it is all hassle.
In truth, the ETA 'base' movement is probably superior, and more reliable.....Panerei developed it's own movements for marketing reasons. ETA movements have benefitted from decades of development, and a lot of research money. Hard to better that in a hurry.
But, we all want what we want.....and it was misdescribed.

[JasonM]

Phone eBay and explain, I’ve always found them pretty good.

[robert75]

Contact eBay and explain and start a dispute saying item not as described. This will start eBay acting and also stop the seller stalling.

[njr911]

You could do what most people on eBay do - Wait for it to arrive, open a dispute, claim back your money and return him an empty box or a box with a dodgy Marina Marinera knock off. Free Pammy!

Don't obviously! He would fly over from Germany and knack you or the BiB would turn up

[witti]

Thanks for all the replies first of all.

I'm guessing you would be well advised to start the process anyway as if you had received the watch. In MyEbay purchases there will be an option to contact seller against the item.

That will bring up a list and one of them is the item not being as described. I think if you tick that it will register the item as being disputed on Ebay and the seller will be notified and given a timeframe and options to respond.

I would do that and send him a message separately re-stating that there is no point him sending it as you have opened a case for mis-description which Ebay will find in your favour on given the clear mis-description and he will be left out of pocket with postal charges if he still chooses to send the item. He would be well minded to accept the mis-description and the "virtual" return of the watch.

Unfortunately he already ordered the postal service and informed me just now that the watch is on the way evethough I asked several times to cancel delivery.
I also opened the returning process due to mis-description.

Not much help to you but the ETA movement rather than the in house I would view as a blessing in disguise.
Other than that perhaps contact eBay NOW and explain the issue, before filing a SNAD on arrival.

Fortunately, you are well protected, although it is all hassle.
In truth, the ETA 'base' movement is probably superior, and more reliable.....Panerei developed it's own movements for marketing reasons. ETA movements have benefitted from decades of development, and a lot of research money. Hard to better that in a hurry.
But, we all want what we want.....and it was misdescribed.

It's not the first time I hear these opinions. I always thought a 3 days hand winding manufacture movement is a good improvement compare to ETA and won't be very challanging to make it rugged by today's technology.
Would you choose the ETA simply based on reliability?

Contact eBay and explain and start a dispute saying item not as described. This will start eBay acting and also stop the seller stalling.

Will do that, thanks.

You could do what most people on eBay do - Wait for it to arrive, open a dispute, claim back your money and return him an empty box or a box with a dodgy Marina Marinera knock off. Free Pammy!

Don't obviously! He would fly over from Germany and knack you or the BiB would turn up

Maybe not :)
However this got me thinking especially because the seller is acting really aggressively.
My plan was not to take the package from the postman, rather return it directly. But then I have nothing in the hand. No money, no watch, only Ebay and Paypal backing me.
On the other Hand if I accept the package being probably more secured but have to calculate a hefty return shipping fee.

[PIERS (UK)]

Personally, I'd have a PAM 631 over say a 777 anyday ( i'm making the comparisson because that was mentioned in the original post and the most similar looking )

631 has the Fauxtina markers, modified Unitas 6497 movement, blue logo - There's not much wrong here, (if you like Fauxtina) - The 631 will be easier to service / repair in the longer term as you're not restricted to RSC.

Both the 777 and 631 have steel casebacks, so nothing to see here with regard to the back. To be honest the inhouse 3 day power reserve is better, but you're going to get a solid 48-50 hours out of the 631.

The 631 is more historically correct as well for the case design - Bettarini, which during the 1990s started the rebirth of the brand with the likes of the 5218, which also has the Unitas powering it.

I don't know how much an inhouse base PAM goes for used, but would assume they'd be more so perhaps the pricing you paid reflected this? I think provided that you paid a decent price for this, I would be more than happy with the 631!

[verv]

It's not the first time I hear these opinions. I always thought a 3 days hand winding manufacture movement is a good improvement compare to ETA and won't be very challanging to make it rugged by today's technology.
Would you choose the ETA simply based on reliability?

No, Id choose it because it can be serviced by any competent watchmaker without having to send it back to Panerai who I wouldn't trust to change a battery in a swatch.

[geran]

Phone eBay and explain, I’ve always found them pretty good.

Agree, only had cause to call twice in the past, but both times they were very helpful.

[witti]

Personally, I'd have a PAM 631 over say a 777 anyday ( i'm making the comparisson because that was mentioned in the original post and the most similar looking )

631 has the Fauxtina markers, modified Unitas 6497 movement, blue logo - There's not much wrong here, (if you like Fauxtina) - The 631 will be easier to service / repair in the longer term as you're not restricted to RSC.

Both the 777 and 631 have steel casebacks, so nothing to see here with regard to the back. To be honest the inhouse 3 day power reserve is better, but you're going to get a solid 48-50 hours out of the 631.

The 631 is more historically correct as well for the case design - Bettarini, which during the 1990s started the rebirth of the brand with the likes of the 5218, which also has the Unitas powering it.

I don't know how much an inhouse base PAM goes for used, but would assume they'd be more so perhaps the pricing you paid reflected this? I think provided that you paid a decent price for this, I would be more than happy with the 631!

Don't get me wrong. The watch looks fantastic and have no issue from outside.
It was advertised as new condition and I payed as much as the last mint condition went for here on SC. So I suppose it's OKish.
Concerning the movement my approach was that for the premium price you could do better than simply casing (almost) an ETA.
As I'm not (yet) a Paneristi I didn't considered aspects like which is more historically correct etc.
You are not making it easier for me :)

No, Id choose it because it can be serviced by any competent watchmaker without having to send it back to Panerai who I wouldn't trust to change a battery in a swatch.

You guys really pushing me more and more to accept what I will have...I didn't expect that TBH

[Bodo]

DO NOT START A NOT AS DESCRIBED CASE.

This, if it goes in your favour, will mean you have to return what you don't have in your possession. It is not the correct process to follow as it will simply mean the seller has to send the item and await the case being assessed etc....no point. EBay shouldn't start such a case given the situation but..crossed wires and all that.

An item not received case is also not applicable for obvious reasons.

Start the cancellation process of the order and if the seller still sends it out it is at that point that you start a SNAD case.

Ebay won't force a cancellation without the seller agreeing. So work with the seller as best you can is my advice or allow the item to arrive at which point start a case.

If you reject an item and eBay see the item is being "returned to sender" you will be able to start an INR case,but you will likely have to wait for the item to have actually been returned to the seller before the case will be finished. Let me clarify...This is if you reject the delivery and the postman returns it. Or if you receive a while you were out card and ignore it you would have to wait for it to show as returned to sender. Time consuming and troubling for obvious reasons.

[njr911]

DO NOT START A NOT AS DESCRIBED CASE.

This, if it goes in your favour, will mean you have to return what you don't have in your possession. It is not the correct process to follow as it will simply mean the seller has to send the item and await the case being assessed etc....no point.

An item not received case is also not applicable for obvious reasons.

Start the cancellation process of the order and if the seller still sends it out it is at that point that you start a SNAD case.

Ebay won't force a cancellation without the seller agreeing. So work with the seller as best you can is my advice or allow the item to arrive at which point start a case.

If you reject an item and eBay see the item is being "returned to sender" you will be able to start an INR case,but you will likely have to wait for the item to have actually been returned to the seller before the case will be finished.

And what if the seller says an empty box or a marina mariner was returned rather than the proper pammy ? Is the risk on the buyer ?

[Bodo]

If the item was never delivered to the buyer then they (seller) will have to claim on insurance once it's returned. The tracking will make it clear the item never reached the buyer as it shows it had a failed/attempted delivery. Items that are left in a warehouse will eventually be returned to sender. This is a complicated issue at times as a buyer who claims item not received because they don't want to pay customs and don't pick the item up could have a case go against them....as it's their responsibility to pay the customs duty. However once it shows it is being returned then by the terms PayPal or eBay follow the seller didn't prove a successful delivery and so the buyer gets their money back.

If the buyer is responsible for the returned package and the seller claims empty box then the buyer pursues their insurance.

[PIERS (UK)]

Concerning the movement my approach was that for the premium price you could do better than simply casing (almost) an ETA.

The premium price is all down to brand and desirability. The in-house movement is designed to provide exclusivity, and lock you into their servicing, but ultimately is it mechanically any better than a movement that’s been tried and tested since the 1950s?

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Blessing in disguise.

I understand your frustration, but I would be happy.

[Nev]

I much prefer the hands-on the 631, i think the silver hands look much better that the black hour/minute and white second hand on the 777.

Movement wise its your call, nothing wrong with the OP11, the PR probably isn't quite as good as the P6000 but as others have said servicing will be much easier.

Unless there is a huge disparity in the ££ if the 631 is in really nice condition I think I'd be tempted to keep it. Personally I think aesthetically its the nicer variant.

[Robsmck]

My main issue with the 777 would be the blue fabric strap. Not to my taste, but then beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

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[Steelgecko]

As a long time seller on eBay I can tell you this will go in your favour for sure.

Unfortunately if dispatched as seems and you have not initiated any dispute yet, then you have two options

1. Refuse delivery or ignore card through door if out when delivery attempted. But it will take up to a month or more to get money back depending on courier terms for sitting in depot before return to sender.

2. Accept delivery and open INAD case immediately. Seller will HAVE to take item back (eBay will find in your favour based on your posts, in any case they are massively skewed in favour of buyers) and should have to supply printable return postage slip via eBay, at their cost. This should be faster even if seller ignores you. eBay will eventually refund you in this case (and seize the funds which are frozen at start of INAD case in sellers PayPal account) so the seller will be forced to the table.

If you wanted the IH movement, don't be forced to take something you didn't want.

[witti]

As a long time seller on eBay I can tell you this will go in your favour for sure.

Unfortunately if dispatched as seems and you have not initiated any dispute yet, then you have two options

1. Refuse delivery or ignore card through door if out when delivery attempted. But it will take up to a month or more to get money back depending on courier terms for sitting in depot before return to sender.

2. Accept delivery and open INAD case immediately. Seller will HAVE to take item back (eBay will find in your favour based on your posts, in any case they are massively skewed in favour of buyers) and should have to supply printable return postage slip via eBay, at their cost. This should be faster even if seller ignores you. eBay will eventually refund you in this case (and seize the funds which are frozen at start of INAD case in sellers PayPal account) so the seller will be forced to the table.

If you wanted the IH movement, don't be forced to take something you didn't want.

That was also my initial feeling. On the seller's side is only that he states in the AD it's a PAM 631. But also says in the description that the new P6000 is inside.
As buyer I don't have to have the knowledge wether Panerai released a limited run with the old ref. but the new movement.
I still believe that Ebay will be on my side. In fact I was 100% sure with my decision concerning which movement I want but I see everywhere positive comments on the OPII now.

I much prefer the hands-on the 631, i think the silver hands look much better that the black hour/minute and white second hand on the 777.



Movement wise its your call, nothing wrong with the OP11, the PR probably isn't quite as good as the P6000 but as others have said servicing will be much easier.

Unless there is a huge disparity in the ££ if the 631 is in really nice condition I think I'd be tempted to keep it. Personally I think aesthetically its the nicer variant.

Absolutely agree on the hands. I didn't like the 777's painted hands and genuinely belived that the watch I'm buying is a kind of transitional model. Old hands new movement.

Blessing in disguise.

I understand your frustration, but I would be happy.

I start to hear all these comments in favor of the OPII movement. Food for thought.

[T1ckT0ck]

Accept delivery. Check it out in the flesh. See how you ‘feel’ about the watch and whether the movement is actually a sticking point.

However, if you are going to look back at the whole incident every time you wear it and / or the movement isn’t liveable then file a INAD and return it.

New watch ownership should be a pleasurable experience.

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