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Thread: More bike related stuff

  1. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    Just as an aside, my refined list is now looking like this (I've replaced the Street Triple with the Twin Bonneville, although obviously I could test both; however, the Twin does seem far more suitable and the seat is a lot lower):

    Larger engines:

    Ducati Scrambler Icon
    Triumph Street Twin
    Yamaha MT-07

    Smaller engines:

    Honda CMX500 Rebel (a nice low seat due to the semi-bobber styling)
    Honda CB500X (a genuine all-purpose bike)

    The StreetTwin is the look that's doing it for me at the moment, though - takes me back to the days when my mates were all on Bonnies and Tigers!

    When I was looking the Triumphs had a stiffer clutch. Something to look for in your deliberations as they can be tiring in traffic

  2. #152
    Craftsman Tifa's Avatar
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    IF you go for a StreetTwin...go for the most basic model available.
    Will save a bit of coin, and give you loads of scope to mod it and add a few nice 'goodies' that will personalise it...and make it yours.

  3. #153
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    A tall seat needn't be a deal breaker -


  4. #154
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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  5. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    I meant those roads where the sides are lower than the centre, near the curbs. When youíre near the curb, the outside leg easily touches the road but the nearside one not so easily. If the bike leans the wrong way, by the time your foot is fully down and you can use your leg muscles, the bike will be too far gone.
    You will only fully understand once youíve been caught out, and itís not a situation that youíre likely to encounter during your training.
    ]
    This is just why I warn people off tall trail bikes - apart from the engine braking of a big single.

    It is fairly easy to slide your bum across the seat when you stop but nothing teaches you like the horror feeling of the bikeís descent overtaking your leg fortunately I didnít drop that one but easily could have.

    I also remember getting my jeans caught on the clutch bleed nipple on a Ducati - fortunately the jeans tore and I didnít drop a bike 2 days into ownership.

    There is a reason bikers wear big boots !


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  6. #156
    I didnít drop my bike during a quite protracted DAS course. Heard all the cautionary tales about how I would drop it at some point once Iíd passed.

    Didnít stop me getting a nice shiny bike which I promptly dropped twice in my first month.

    First was fairly unavoidable riding towards a section of residential road that suddenly narrowed and became a one-way street in my direction. Car was coming down it which forced me to take a right turn over a brow of a hill with an adverse camber on it. Didnít carry enough momentum into the turn and promptly came off at 3mph. Bruised ego and a new valve cover were the only prices to pay.

    Second time was sat in my garage. Wheeled the bike away from the ground anchor and put it on the stand. Got on and somehow dropped it when taking it off the stand. I was quite tired after some night shifts so learned a second valuable lesson about staying off the bike when tired.

    I donít think you necessarily need to buy a wrecker as your first bike but just keep some money aside (or in my case some valve covers) for when you do drop it. Youíll probs not be able to sleep at night thinking about that scratch on the clutch lever or the gouged bar end.

  7. #157
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    Iíve fallen off outside the garage when bike was due itís first MOT :(

    Iím putting that down to a diesel or oil spill but bike was perfect when I set off and I was only sat on it to save pushing it out of the parking space.

    Didnít know if to laugh or cry (I cried, like a baby).

  8. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by j0hnbarker View Post

    Second time was sat in my garage. Wheeled the bike away from the ground anchor and put it on the stand. Got on and somehow dropped it when taking it off the stand.
    I remember being told by a veteran biker when showing them one of my bikes that was oddly parked in the garage ďalways approach a bike from the sidestand sideĒ it makes good sense.

    I donít remember my low speed drops but definitely had a couple as I was getting used to things and I remember one of my friends dropping an almost brand new 1100 who was a very experienced biker so weight and circumstances can catch anyone out. As I said if my jeans hadnít torn I would have fallen as I simply couldnít put my foot down but the bike had gone past the point of no return.



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  9. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by MB2 View Post
    I remember being told by a veteran biker when showing them one of my bikes that was oddly parked in the garage ďalways approach a bike from the sidestand sideĒ it makes good sense.

    I donít remember my low speed drops but definitely had a couple (and a few near misses) as I was getting used to things and I remember one of my friends dropping an almost brand new 1100 who was a very experienced biker so weight and circumstances can catch anyone out. As I said if my jeans hadnít torn I would have fallen as I simply couldnít put my foot down but the bike had gone past the point of no return.



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  10. #160
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Ignore me... just adding the Moto Guzzi V7III Carbon to the list. Gorgeous, seemingly very rideable and a seat height of just 770mm. An airhead too :)



    So...

    Larger engines - all stunning bikes and seemingly not too large or demanding:

    Ducati Scrambler Icon
    Triumph Street Twin
    Yamaha MT-07
    Moto Guzzi V7III Carbon

    Smaller engines:

    Honda CMX500 Rebel (a nice low seat due to the semi-bobber styling)
    Honda CB500X (a genuine all-purpose bike)
    Honda CB500R (very rideable, and the benchmark in this class)
    Last edited by learningtofly; 13th August 2018 at 16:20.

  11. #161
    Master stoneyloon's Avatar
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    That Guzzi is really rather tasty.

    I might have to have a look at one of them.....

    Cheers,
    Adam.



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  12. #162
    Have you dismissed the R9T?

    If you're considering modern retros then it is worth a look. Will be easier to service and get parts for than a Moto Guzzi.

    Various iterations are available:





    I personally think the Urban GS is better looking than any of the bikes on your list so far.

  13. #163
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j0hnbarker View Post
    Have you dismissed the R9T?

    If you're considering modern retros then it is worth a look. Will be easier to service and get parts for than a Moto Guzzi.

    Various iterations are available:

    I personally think the Urban GS is better looking than any of the bikes on your list so far.
    I agree that it's a beautiful bike. However, a 1200cc engine really is over the top for what I want and was originally after, it's relatively large/heavy and the seating position is less upright than those on my shortlist.

  14. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    I agree that it's a beautiful bike. However, a 1200cc engine really is over the top for what I want and was originally after, it's relatively large/heavy and the seating position is less upright than those on my shortlist.
    Fair enough.

    The GS weighs 20kg more than the Street Twin and with the low seat spec the height is 820mm. The straight R9T low seat is 795mm and the R9T Scrambler low seat is 790mm. As it's a boxer the centre of gravity is pretty low, making it realtively easy to handle around the garage.

    Appreciate that you want to get your feet on the ground (as I do) but the GS certainly has an upright riding position given that it is intended to be ridden on and off road.

    As others have commented, 1200cc is bigger than your spec but if you take the power delivery into account (low down torque) then it will be within your capabilities to handle. The S1000RR is 998cc for example, but has almost double the power of the R9T unit. I'm not suggesting you get a superbike, but it illustrates the point nicely.

    You'll get bored with a 500cc bike pretty quickly - the DAS bikes you'll have learnt on will have more grunt.

    Keep an open mind and have a look around.

    When do you get started with lessons?

  15. #165
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j0hnbarker View Post
    Fair enough.

    The GS weighs 20kg more than the Street Twin and with the low seat spec the height is 820mm. The straight R9T low seat is 795mm and the R9T Scrambler low seat is 790mm. As it's a boxer the centre of gravity is pretty low, making it realtively easy to handle around the garage.

    Appreciate that you want to get your feet on the ground (as I do) but the GS certainly has an upright riding position given that it is intended to be ridden on and off road.

    As others have commented, 1200cc is bigger than your spec but if you take the power delivery into account (low down torque) then it will be within your capabilities to handle. The S1000RR is 998cc for example, but has almost double the power of the R9T unit. I'm not suggesting you get a superbike, but it illustrates the point nicely.

    You'll get bored with a 500cc bike pretty quickly - the DAS bikes you'll have learnt on will have more grunt.

    Keep an open mind and have a look around.

    When do you get started with lessons?
    Fair enough, John, and I take your point with regard to seat height (my inside leg is 30.5", by the way, so I do need to be careful in that regard).

    I have my CBT tomorrow, and will then go straight into my theory tests. After that, my intention is to book a week of training to follow straight on, followed by the Mod 1 and Mod 2 tests. If I were to pass everything first time (which obviously remains to be seen), I'm hoping that it will be done and dusted within a month. I did ride for quite a few years when I was much younger, albeit nothing larger than a 250. I'm hoping that'll be a bit of a foundation now, as I won't have the nervousness of a complete novice.

  16. #166
    Craftsman Tifa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j0hnbarker View Post
    Have you dismissed the R9T?

    If you're considering modern retros then it is worth a look. Will be easier to service and get parts for than a Moto Guzzi.

    Various iterations are available:





    I personally think the Urban GS is better looking than any of the bikes on your list so far.
    Hahahahaaa....banana splits tyres on an urban machine?
    Roland Sands must be laughing all the way to the bank.

  17. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    Fair enough, John, and I take your point with regard to seat height (my inside leg is 30.5", by the way, so I do need to be careful in that regard).

    I have my CBT tomorrow, and will then go straight into my theory tests. After that, my intention is to book a week of training to follow straight on, followed by the Mod 1 and Mod 2 tests. If I were to pass everything first time (which obviously remains to be seen), I'm hoping that it will be done and dusted within a month. I did ride for quite a few years when I was much younger, albeit nothing larger than a 250. I'm hoping that'll be a bit of a foundation now, as I won't have the nervousness of a complete novice.
    Good luck with everything. The theory test is very easy. There are practice questions on the DVSA website that you can rehearse the night before.

    The only frustration with the MOD tests is that you need 3 clear working days should you fail one, which will interrupt your plans somewhat if you fail sequentially like I did...

    We have the same inside leg, so you certainly wouldn't struggle with the standard R9T. FWIW I had more trouble reaching the ground on the SV650 DAS bike than I do on my own machine.

  18. #168
    Grand Master 100thmonkey's Avatar
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    Itís always worth remembering that you can take an inch or more out of most seats and still maintain comfort of you are on the shorter side


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  19. #169
    If you are looking at the MG then I would take a look at a Harley Iron (which has mid controls).

    Low seat height and while they are no MT-07, they are surprisingly easy to ride as weight is all low down.

    Good luck with the test etc

  20. #170
    Grand Master GraniteQuarry's Avatar
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    Short of leg you say? Eureka!


  21. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by j0hnbarker View Post
    Have you dismissed the R9T?

    If you're considering modern retros then it is worth a look. Will be easier to service and get parts for than a Moto Guzzi.

    I personally think the Urban GS is better looking than any of the bikes on your list so far.
    Iíd agree the R9T variants are better looking than most, but itís also double the price of some. There is a Guzzi Stone on the GS forum with v low miles for around £6k. How much is an R9.

    It all comes down to use. The R9Tís may have a longer life in growth as a rider, if itís about progressing - but itís wholly possible most of the choices are going to be absolutely fine for day to day commuting and fun use.

    Id also look at the Kawasaki Z900RS, which looks like a very nice option for old school looks, with modern electrics and a decent size tank.

    For a bit of balance, I enjoyed taking the 125 to work today :)
    It's just a matter of time...

  22. #172
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Thanks Scott. Not quite as drool-inducing as the others, and a much higher seat as well.

    Your comments regarding both price and future need were spot on, by the way.

  23. #173
    Iím used to both high and low seats having adventure and sports bikes, but it does make a difference. The old man gave up riding his GS last year (and bought a R1200r LC) as it was getting a little more difficult with his short legs, around 30 inch inseam. But then he is also in his 70ís and still bloody quick!

    A bike should be fun first and foremost imo, so just make sure you like the looks, you are comfortable on it, and you are confident handling it around a garage/car park on foot and on the road riding it.

    There arenít that many bad choices if you stick to the established brands - I could have fun on almost any bike :)
    It's just a matter of time...

  24. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    Fair enough, John, and I take your point with regard to seat height (my inside leg is 30.5", by the way, so I do need to be careful in that regard).
    You lanky git!

  25. #175
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gyp View Post
    You lanky git!

  26. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    I'm 28" inside leg if i stretch a bit and can pretty much flat foot my R1200R and the Hayabusa I had.

    The tallest I've owned was probably the R80ST (similar to the original R80G/S. I tried to ride an R1200GS Adventure TE a couple of weeks ago, but when one toe was on the ground, the other was about 6" off the ground. Which is why I gave that us as a bad job and borrowed the F750 instead.

    My dear old departed dad was about 24" inside leg and managed both a K75C low seat model and R65 wtin shock

  27. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Omegamanic View Post
    Iíd agree the R9T variants are better looking than most, but itís also double the price of some. There is a Guzzi Stone on the GS forum with v low miles for around £6k. How much is an R9.

    It all comes down to use. The R9Tís may have a longer life in growth as a rider, if itís about progressing - but itís wholly possible most of the choices are going to be absolutely fine for day to day commuting and fun use.

    Id also look at the Kawasaki Z900RS, which looks like a very nice option for old school looks, with modern electrics and a decent size tank.

    For a bit of balance, I enjoyed taking the 125 to work today :)
    You can pick a used one up for circa £8.5k. There's an extensive BMW dealer network to back them up too. Is that the same for MG?

    I think until Tony actually sits on a bike then this is just a fun speculative exercise as to what might suit his requirements. At the moment all he can go on are aesthetics and specs, but they are not going to mean much once he's settled on something he really wants, and then inevitably the tentative budget will go out of the window. As someone who was in his position 4-5 months ago I can pretty much guarantee that will happen. Look at the loosening of the original requirement for a 300cc bike!

  28. #178
    Who knows what the choice would be...

    If I didn’t own any bike I’d be looking for around 100-150bhp, but that’s just me and I like to ride quickly on unrestricted roads when possible.

    If the R9T was quicker I’d consider one (in fact as an additional bike, I’d love one) - it looks better than my old mans R1200R, but it’s slower. I’d honestly like a 130bhp version of it, and their is no real reason you couldn’t have one, as my 2006 R1200S is putting out that figure with full exhaust and remap with with essentially an older tech bmw twin engine.

    Obviously an MX-5 is the right choice, but there are so many really good, and fun, option bikes to choice from.

    Bizzarely I have more fun riding a R1200GS around as quickly as possible than I’ve ever had on a sports bike in over 30+ years riding around the TT course. I still wish it had another 30-40bhp though ;)
    It's just a matter of time...

  29. #179
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Well, that's the CBT out the way. Next is to get my theory done and dusted ASAP, and then get booked up for a 5 day course - 3 days of training, MOD 1 on day four and MOD 2 a few days later.

    Interestingly, I was talking to a couple of the trainers about the seat height issue, and they got me sitting on two of the test bikes (a Gladius 650, and an SV650). Incredibly, despite looking a bit intimidating they felt fairly small when sitting on them. My feet easily sat flat on the ground on both sides, so that's very, very reassuring in terms of the larger bikes on my test list.
    Last edited by learningtofly; 16th August 2018 at 14:32.

  30. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    Well, that's the CBT out the way. Next is to get my theory done and dusted ASAP, and then get booked up for a 5 day course - 3 days of training, MOD 1 on day four and MOD 2 a few days later.
    Splendid

    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    Interestingly, I was talking to a couple of the trainers about the seat height issue, and they got me sitting on two of the test bikes (a Gladius 600, and an SV650). Incredibly, despite looking a bit intimidating they felt fairly small when sitting on them. My feet easily sat flat on the ground on both sides, so that's very, very reassuring in terms of the larger bikes on my test list.
    You will find that seat shape will influence your ability to get feet down as much as seat height.

    Now, I've been thinking... To help you, how about you delay the buying process for a few months and go along to the bike show at the NEC in November? You can jump on and off as many bikes as you like to see which fit, which are comfortable etc.

    And if you say when you're going, about 20 of us can turn up, shout "no!" a lot and direct you towards increasingly inappropriate bikes... ("Unless you sit on the Ninja H2 you'll not be sure it's not for you" etc)

  31. #181
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gyp View Post
    Splendid



    You will find that seat shape will influence your ability to get feet down as much as seat height.

    Now, I've been thinking... To help you, how about you delay the buying process for a few months and go along to the bike show at the NEC in November? You can jump on and off as many bikes as you like to see which fit, which are comfortable etc.

    And if you say when you're going, about 20 of us can turn up, shout "no!" a lot and direct you towards increasingly inappropriate bikes... ("Unless you sit on the Ninja H2 you'll not be sure it's not for you" etc)
    Actually, that's quite an intriguing idea, and could also be a lot of fun

    Let me dwell on it (and thanks for the suggestion).

  32. #182
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    This could be fun :D
    Well, everybody in Casablanca has problems. Yours may work out.

  33. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    Actually, that's quite an intriguing idea, and could also be a lot of fun

    Let me dwell on it (and thanks for the suggestion).
    There is Ally Pally at the end of Sept too

    http://www.mcnallypallyshow.co.uk

    Steve

  34. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    Well, that's the CBT out the way. Next is to get my theory done and dusted ASAP, and then get booked up for a 5 day course - 3 days of training, MOD 1 on day four and MOD 2 a few days later.

    Interestingly, I was talking to a couple of the trainers about the seat height issue, and they got me sitting on two of the test bikes (a Gladius 600, and an SV650). Incredibly, despite looking a bit intimidating they felt fairly small when sitting on them. My feet easily sat flat on the ground on both sides, so that's very, very reassuring in terms of the larger bikes on my test list.
    You have to bear in mind with Japanese bikes the average height (and weight for factory suspension settings) of the Japanese Men they are designed for, you should be fine Tony, you're probably over average height in Japan.
    Last edited by Vanguard; 15th August 2018 at 11:07.

  35. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard View Post
    You have to bear in mind with Japanese bikes the average height (and weight for factory suspension settings) of the Japanese Men they are designed for, you should be fine Tony, you're probably over average height in Japan.
    Do they make motorbikes in Papua New Guinea?
    Well, everybody in Casablanca has problems. Yours may work out.

  36. #186
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Well, FWIW my preferences are down to two bikes, now I know how easy they'll be to flat-foot.

    Speed Twin...



    and Scrambler Icon



    While I'm going through the test process I'll find some local dealers so I can have a sit on them and see how they compare.
    Last edited by learningtofly; 15th August 2018 at 12:50.

  37. #187
    Come on The Scramber, were in the final, hahaha

  38. #188
    Is the Ducati Monster seat height too high for you Tony as that's a great all rounder too?

  39. #189
    Grand Master GraniteQuarry's Avatar
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    William Hill have just shortened the odds on you buying a Street Twin!

  40. #190
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard View Post
    Is the Ducati Monster seat height too high for you Tony as that's a great all rounder too?
    No, it's fine, but I just prefer a more retro shape and style.

    Quote Originally Posted by awright101 View Post
    Come on The Scramber, were in the final, hahaha
    Quote Originally Posted by GraniteQuarry View Post
    William Hill have just shortened the odds on you buying a Street Twin!
    Haha

  41. #191
    Grand Master hogthrob's Avatar
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    On average, how much does a bike seat lower by once you sit on it? Can you adjust the suspension to lower it a bit as well?

  42. #192
    My first big bike was a BMW f800r.

    It ticks all the boxes and is ugly in a beautiful way.

    ABS, enough power to scare but be manageable and lots of mod cons available if you need them.

  43. #193
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    Out of those two I'd choose the Triumph, plenty of dealers and no hassle with servicing and maintainance. The Dukes are fantastic machines but in my experience they need to garaged to maintain the finish. My mate had a Diavel carbon white that lived outside over one winter and the diamond cut wheels started degrading, the anodised finish on some panels started to blister and it developed a dashboard fault where all the warning lights came on and the tank showed empty at random times. Went back to the dealer 4 times and they could never bottom it out so he px'd it for an S1000R.

  44. #194
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    The Triumph is definitely the favourite at the moment, and there's a dealer in Hemel (close to me) that I'll be popping over to on Friday.

    Anyway, this is interesting. It seems that the engine is actually capable of pushing that on the T120 close but Triumph have fitted a restrictor camshaft to keep the power down. If you stick with the video you'll see that fitting the replacement camshaft transforms the bike (increasing the horsepower across the range), so if I ever felt I wanted a bit more ooomph it's good to know there's something that can be done about it without changing the bike.

  45. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by Gyp View Post
    You will find that seat shape will influence your ability to get feet down as much as seat height.
    True.

    Being able to get both feet down is obviously nice to be able to do, but it’s far from essential, especially once you have a bit of experience. I manage with just one foot down (and that’s not flat), but I do take care how I park re sloping ground.
    Last edited by andy tims; 15th August 2018 at 18:30.
    Andy

  46. #196
    There is no question in my mind that the Ducati is the better looking bike, probably rides a lot better too, and the fittings are probably higher quality. Thatís said as we have a Triumph triple in the garage, and a couple of friends have the Ducati Scramblers.

    I would guess servicing costs of the Ducati would be higher, but Iím not sure there is going to be much difference in overall running costs.

    For that style of bike, Iíd buy the BMW - just much better finished with a much more flexible engine - plus loads of aftermarket options to customise to your heart content - and doing your own servicing (maybe with the exception of the ABS) is a fairly simply process for someone able to change a watch strap or size a bracelet ;)
    It's just a matter of time...

  47. #197
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omegamanic View Post
    There is no question in my mind that the Ducati is the better looking bike, probably rides a lot better too, and the fittings are probably higher quality. That’s said as we have a Triumph triple in the garage, and a couple of friends have the Ducati Scramblers.

    I would guess servicing costs of the Ducati would be higher, but I’m not sure there is going to be much difference in overall running costs.

    For that style of bike, I’d buy the BMW - just much better finished with a much more flexible engine - plus loads of aftermarket options to customise to your heart content - and doing your own servicing (maybe with the exception of the ABS) is a fairly simply process for someone able to change a watch strap or size a bracelet ;)
    Actually, Scott, most of the reviews I’ve read or watch suggest that the fittings on the Triumph are superb, and that the ride is probably the better of the two. Given that it barks back the bikes my friends road when I was a yoof there’s an emotional attachment two.

    That said, they’re both beautiful and neither could possibly be a mistake. That said, I’ll have another look at the BMW options.

    Edit: Looked again. There's no way I'm gong straight onto a 1200cc bike (and doubt I ever will), and I don't like them as much anyway.
    Last edited by learningtofly; 15th August 2018 at 19:20.

  48. #198
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Tony, please continue to browse all the bikes that fit your aesthetic requirements but by all means DO NOT make your mind up. On any. Donít even discard the marginal ones.
    As a previous poster stated, 2 feet flat down is reassuring but not compulsory, and a wide saddle at the right height and youíll still struggle with the 2 feet flat down.
    But more importantly a motorcycle is first and foremost a ride; since you seem set on the riding position/style you want, the engine will make the difference.
    You will be amazed at the difference in character between the different engines. Some may feel bland, others can be smooth or brutal.
    This is what will guide you in the end. So donít commit before having ridden the whole shortlist.
    Well, everybody in Casablanca has problems. Yours may work out.

  49. #199
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Tony, please continue to browse all the bikes that fit your aesthetic requirements but by all means DO NOT make your mind up. On any. Donít even discard the marginal ones.
    As a previous poster stated, 2 feet flat down is reassuring but not compulsory, and a wide saddle at the right height and youíll still struggle with the 2 feet flat down.
    But more importantly a motorcycle is first and foremost a ride; since you seem set on the riding position/style you want, the engine will make the difference.
    You will be amazed at the difference in character between the different engines. Some may feel bland, others can be smooth or brutal.
    This is what will guide you in the end. So donít commit before having ridden the whole shortlist.
    Noted and completely understood.

  50. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    You will be amazed at the difference in character between the different engines. Some may feel bland, others can be smooth or brutal.
    Not forgetting that with more and more bikes coming with selectable engine modes, it's possible that the same bike could feel any of bland, smooth or brutal depending on the setting you choose.

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