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  1. #501
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    I'm finding the whole counter steering thing quite fascinating actually, and realised fairly quickly that I was often doing it without realising. Being aware, though, makes it much easier to hold a line through corners, and prevents what was happening occasionally - drifting out and seemingly having to fight the bike a bit.

    Riding is such a learning process.

  2. #502
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    Just don't attempt to use counter steering on the mod1 hazard avoidance. Tried it on one of my practice runs and drove straight in to the hazard cone.

    If you're still interested in an R9T I just noticed one of the posters on Pistonheads who works at Chester Motorrad comment that the dealership are pushing to meet target at the moment. Supposedly the Oxford dealership are also doing deals.

  3. #503
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mowflow View Post
    Just don't attempt to use counter steering on the mod1 hazard avoidance. Tried it on one of my practice runs and drove straight in to the hazard cone.

    If you're still interested in an R9T I just noticed one of the posters on Pistonheads who works at Chester Motorrad comment that the dealership are pushing to meet target at the moment. Supposedly the Oxford dealership are also doing deals.
    Thanks, and noted. It'll be interesting to hear what the instructor suggests too.

    It's a bit early for my buying decision to be finalised, but I'll keep an eye on those two dealerships.

  4. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groundrush View Post
    Nah, slowing a gyroscope won't stand it up, it'll just precess faster.

    Anyway, now the trolls have turned up I'm off.
    No, not if you have a simple spinning gyro. But if your gyroscope is already being forced to accelerate round a corner and you slow it, it does. That's my point.

    Edit - not sure if you are telling me I am a troll......

  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by Tifa View Post
    Damn those pesky anti-lock brakes.....needed more bhp's obviously.
    I know if only he had bought a GXR750 instead of a 600 he would have simply powered through the problem.

    My favourite answer to the "need more bhp" crew is that one of my friend's set a 100mph lap of the IOM TT on a production tuned TZR250 in the late 1980s so whilst a bigger bike may be faster the "problem" can also be solved by a faster rider.

  6. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by sweets View Post
    No, not if you have a simple spinning gyro. But if your gyroscope is already being forced to accelerate round a corner and you slow it, it does. That's my point.
    Sorry but no. For a bike travelling round a corner at a steady speed the gyroscopic torque tends to want to force the bike upright which the rider automatically compensates for to maintain their lean angle. If you slow the angular momentum of the wheel, the gyroscopic force trying to stand the bike up is reduced so the bike wants to fall over more. If it were the other way around, the slower you went the more the bike would want to stand up and stationary bikes would stand up on their own. To stand a bike up using the gyro moment you have to go faster, much faster.

    But all of this theory is utterly pointless from a riders standpoint. The point is that you can quite happily brake round a corner using whatever inputs you need to make it happen. When people brake and the bike stands up as if by magic, it's the riders input that has done it, not physics.

    Quote Originally Posted by sweets View Post
    Edit - not sure if you are telling me I am a troll......
    Nah not you, I was referring to the peanut gallery. Which is why I try not to get involved in debates on the internet. And with that I'm out.

  7. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by MB2 View Post

    My favourite answer to the "need more bhp" crew is that one of my friend's set a 100mph lap of the IOM TT on a production tuned TZR250 in the late 1980s so whilst a bigger bike may be faster the "problem" can also be solved by a faster rider.
    Oxley?


    Quote Originally Posted by Groundrush View Post
    When people brake and the bike stands up as if by magic, it's the riders input that has done it, not physics.
    No, when braking hard or too hard while cornering and the bike stands up, itís physics.
    It's just a matter of time...

  8. #508
    Master sweets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groundrush View Post
    Sorry but no. For a bike travelling round a corner at a steady speed the gyroscopic torque tends to want to force the bike upright which the rider automatically compensates for to maintain their lean angle. If you slow the angular momentum of the wheel, the gyroscopic force trying to stand the bike up is reduced so the bike wants to fall over more. If it were the other way around, the slower you went the more the bike would want to stand up and stationary bikes would stand up on their own. To stand a bike up using the gyro moment you have to go faster, much faster.
    Sorry, but actually this is not accurate. The speed may be steady, but because you are cornering you are forcing your two gyroscopes (wheels) to twist, which they do not want to do, and they react by wanting to stand you up. We agree on this, and furthermore I agree that if you do the same corner at slower speed you have less gyroscopic momentum, less force to counter, less lean required. And faster means more. But this also is a result of the requirement to lean to resolve the main forces that draw the mass of bike and rider into an arc.

    However, if you start cornering at one speed and brake to slow down, this is not the same as merely considering the comparison of the two cases above. Adding a braking force adds a further unresolved force into the system which the gyroscopes also react to. It also matters which wheel you brake with in terms of the suspension and reacions to that. Most sources totally agree that rear braking can assist in making the turn steeper, and front braking straightens the course of the bike. This is a very complex system at work here.

    Of course, if you are at the limit of traction in a corner and you add braking, you are going to fall, and it will be a low side, but that is not what we ar e considering here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Groundrush View Post
    But all of this theory is utterly pointless from a riders standpoint. The point is that you can quite happily brake round a corner using whatever inputs you need to make it happen. When people brake and the bike stands up as if by magic, it's the riders input that has done it, not physics.

    Nah not you, I was referring to the peanut gallery. Which is why I try not to get involved in debates on the internet. And with that I'm out.
    Fair enough

  9. #509
    Quote Originally Posted by sweets View Post
    However, if you start cornering at one speed and brake to slow down, this is not the same as merely considering the comparison of the two cases above. Adding a braking force adds a further unresolved force into the system which the gyroscopes also react to. It also matters which wheel you brake with in terms of the suspension and reacions to that. Most sources totally agree that rear braking can assist in making the turn steeper, and front braking straightens the course of the bike. This is a very complex system at work here.
    Having thought about this, I think I am incorrect in saying that it's all rider input that causes a bike to stand up under braking. There is a physics reason for it and it is due to a steering input, just not a voluntary one.

    As far as I can see, there is nothing in the maths that could possibly mean that a reduction in the angular momentum of a wheel will cause a gyroscopic torque in the way you describe. If there were, then it shouldn't matter which wheel you apply the brakes to since both wheels are travelling through the same arc and because they are both attached to the same bike, they both slow at the same rate. So that ain't it.

    However, because you are leaning over the contact patch is not central on the front wheel, it's off to one side. Applying the front brake will cause a torque on the steering forcing the front wheel to turn in. This will stand the bike up. The strength of the effect will depend on how hard you brake. Trail braking is not supposed to be a hard braking technique so the effect should be small enough to be easily compensated for. But grabbing a sudden handful panic style will do it if you aren't careful. Since the rear wheel does not have the degree of freedom to turn in the vertical axis, this effect cannot apply but the standard slowing of rotation reducing the gyroscopic torque will, hence the bike falls in. This is in agreement with the bold above.

    So I've changed my opinion. Grabbing a butt load of front brake when leant over will torque the steering which if unopposed by the rider will stand you up. That is not a technique I would recommend and it isn't what I would consider to be trail braking.

    Whaddayaknow, I learned something, cheers.

  10. #510
    Master Argon's Avatar
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    Good discussion, sweets and groundrush. Iíve learnt a lot.

  11. #511
    Quote Originally Posted by Omegamanic View Post
    Oxley?

    Yes - one of my friends mechaniched (?) in an endurance team in the garage next to his and knew him quite well. It was an expensive year for us as we both ended up buying Harris frames for our bikes...

  12. #512
    Quote Originally Posted by MB2 View Post
    Yes - one of my friends mechaniched (?) in an endurance team in the garage next to his and knew him quite well. It was an expensive year for us as we both ended up buying Harris frames for our bikes...
    Very good! I watched him set the 100mph lap on the (a single front disc) TZR :)
    It's just a matter of time...

  13. #513
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    I remember us all marveling at this new record as teenagers, whilst riding 125cc bikes and dreaming of a 250/350 2 Stroke race replica as a next bike.

  14. #514
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    Quote Originally Posted by MB2 View Post
    I know if only he had bought a GXR750 instead of a 600 he would have simply powered through the problem.

    My favourite answer to the "need more bhp" crew is that one of my friend's set a 100mph lap of the IOM TT on a production tuned TZR250 in the late 1980s so whilst a bigger bike may be faster the "problem" can also be solved by a faster rider.
    About 20 years ago my dad bought an ex-works TZR250 that had been raced in the TT. It was bloody lethal.

  15. #515
    Master Vanguard's Avatar
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    Imagine what the GP 500cc 2 Strokes were like?

  16. #516
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard View Post
    Imagine what the GP 500cc 2 Strokes were like?
    I own two 250 Kr1s so 500cc in total, does that count👍. The effect off 55 bhp and 131 kgs with 50% of the power coming in between 6500 and 7000 rpm. Makes me laugh out loud every time I give it some beans.


    I remember listening to an ex racer giving a presentation at Stafford show on GP 500 2 strokes. He said the bikes were genuinely evil. They would have such savage powerbands and a propensity to seize that would catapult a rider over the bars at a moments notice. Hence the practice of two fingers covering the clutch at all times.

  17. #517
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    There's a documentary often shown on one of the BBC channels that covers the 500 gp era. Everyone in the documentary said they were evil.

    I had a shot of that Yamaha my dad owned. Thought I'd be fine due to riding a 2 stroke CR250 at the time. I shot out the drive right across the street straight up the neighbours drive way that my legs dangling out all over the place before I had the sense to pull the clutch. It was like accidentally bursting a high pressure pipe full of fast.

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  18. #518
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    The R500 Gamma was wild enough, as was the 500 RDLC.
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=jsgWlP_3WHk
    Well, everybody in Casablanca has problems. Yours may work out.

  19. #519
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Okay, for anyone still with me I've been playing on bikes again today, and I've refined my thinking a little bit more. All of this, though, needs to be seen within the context of my gravitation towards Triumph; there are a lot of reasons for that, but assume it's a given.

    Firstly, I've pretty much decided that I'm not interested in a scrambler-style bike. I certainly wouldn't want the Triumph scrambler over the Bonnie(s), but I've pretty much decided that I prefer a more classic look/style. I'm really not going to be riding off-road, so there's also little point in compromising in terms of tyres and set-up, arguably ending up with something that's neither one thing nor another.

    Secondly, I'm obviously very fond indeed of the Bonnevilles; however, the thing that worries me a little is the weight, particularly the weight of the T120. Some of the reviews I've seen - particularly those from people who aren't particularly large in stature - indicate that over time this can become an issue as the weight is relatively high, and what I don't want to do is find that 6 months down the line I've made a mistake. As a consequence of that I've decided that I should seriously consider (and test) the Street Triple R. I know it's not retro in style but it's naked at least and the weight advantage (some 100lbs!) would be a really big plus for me. I know there's a low ride height model, too, should the standard R seem to high.

    Then there's the 9RT, the only real competition for the Triumphs at the moment.

    So, that's the four to be tested now. All lovely, but hopefully one of them will stand out as being the better bike for me.
    Last edited by learningtofly; 14th September 2018 at 19:09.

  20. #520
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    More bike related stuff

    Throwing a spanner in the works Tony, have you considered the small Harleyís?

    I sat on one of these today and itís small, surprisingly light and (I believe) quite nimble. Iím going to take one out hit a test tide as Iím looking for something thatís just easy to ride; my old Kwaks have to be ridden with a bit of thought!

    https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F163244828362

    Itís surprisingly un-Harleylike!

  21. #521
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    Tony, I think that once you start the touch and feel process (!) you will find that Triumphs are, and will likely remain, way behind BM in the quality stakes.

  22. #522
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    Tony at the moment you are carrying out static decisions and judgements, imagine how much fun itís going to be when you pass your mod 2 and start chucking them about. Thatís where the Triumph BM decision will come. Got to say gorgeous as it is the street triple will feel uber fast for a first ďbig bikeĒ

    Steve

  23. #523
    Unless I'm mistaken the t120 and R9T are much heavier than the bikes you started out on, 220kg. The Ducati scrambler is 180 which is a fair bit lighter. I would echo other comments and wait until you can test ride a wide range before nailing it down. I had a multi Strada before the scrambler and the scrambler is so much more fun just because its lower and lighter. Mind you I'm a 9 1/2st wimp so it's horses for courses. After the multi my choice was driven by weight rather than style. Simple things like trying to reverse backwards on a slight incline were a pain and now no problem as was the height. Stopping where the road sloped caused me issues and once the bike goes past a certain tilt there no stopping it falling over.
    When I made my first purchase I turned up to my dealer and went out on 5 or 6 different brands and surprised myself over which ones I liked and disliked.

  24. #524
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyman View Post
    Tony, I think that once you start the touch and feel process (!) you will find that Triumphs are, and will likely remain, way behind BM in the quality stakes.
    A decade ago I'd agree with that. But IME things have changed of late and in the case of a T120 I'd put it higher than say a F650GS twin, both of which I've owned in the last couple of years. Triumph have improved whilst BMW seemed to have stayed static, or even declined in the QC department. All subjective of course, but as an example the paint on the BMW was nowhere here as good as on the Triumph, in parts your could see that there wasn't sufficient cover on the frame of the BMW.

    I'm now on my third Triumph and they feel a lot better than they did before.

    R
    Ignorance breeds Fear. Fear breeds Hatred. Hatred breeds Ignorance. Break the chain.

  25. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by ralphy View Post
    A decade ago I'd agree with that. But IME things have changed of late and in the case of a T120 I'd put it higher than say a F650GS twin, both of which I've owned in the last couple of years. Triumph have improved whilst BMW seemed to have stayed static, or even declined in the QC department. All subjective of course, but as an example the paint on the BMW was nowhere here as good as on the Triumph, in parts your could see that there wasn't sufficient cover on the frame of the BMW.

    I'm now on my third Triumph and they feel a lot better than they did before.

    R
    Not sure thatís applicable to the R9T. The F bikes werenít built in Berlin like the 9.

    The straight bike is beautifully made - the tank for example is wonderfully finished.

  26. #526
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    Throwing a spanner in the works Tony, have you considered the small Harley’s?

    I sat on one of these today and it’s small, surprisingly light and (I believe) quite nimble. I’m going to take one out hit a test tide as I’m looking for something that’s just easy to ride; my old Kwaks have to be ridden with a bit of thought!

    https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F163244828362

    It’s surprisingly un-Harleylike!
    Interesting, Dave. Probably not for me, but I can see why you suggested it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyman View Post
    Tony, I think that once you start the touch and feel process (!) you will find that Triumphs are, and will likely remain, way behind BM in the quality stakes.
    The fit and finish of the Triumphs is superb, Simon. Given the price differential I'd expect to see a slightly higher quality on the BMs, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by higham5 View Post
    Tony at the moment you are carrying out static decisions and judgements, imagine how much fun it’s going to be when you pass your mod 2 and start chucking them about. That’s where the Triumph BM decision will come. Got to say gorgeous as it is the street triple will feel uber fast for a first “big bike”

    Steve
    Good point, Steve - the Striple is clearly a bit of a beast. Having said that, I drive my Boxster quite sedately - its all down to the hand on the throttle, and increasing experience with time on the road/bike.
    Last edited by learningtofly; 15th September 2018 at 08:32.

  27. #527
    you will have fun on the street triple , its been voted the best mid weight all rounder multiple times for a reason - if you have a porsche you can handle the street , both will only go as fast as you let them.

  28. #528
    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    Good point, Steve - the Striple is clearly a bit of a beast. Having said that, I drive my Boxster quite sedately - its all down to the hand on the rider, and increasing experience with time on the road/bike.
    I would caution that view slightly, just saying that far more than cars, bikes are at their best when ridden as intended.

    Pottering about on a cruiser can be blissful, while trying to get somewhere quick on it will be horrid.

    Similarly, pottering about on a sports bike will be soul destroying and uncomfortable, while opening it up on a B road will be engaging and rewarding.

    To buy a sportier bike with the intent of riding it sedately wouldn't be a wise move.

  29. #529
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gyp View Post
    I would caution that view slightly, just saying that far more than cars, bikes are at their best when ridden as intended.

    Pottering about on a cruiser can be blissful, while trying to get somewhere quick on it will be horrid.

    Similarly, pottering about on a sports bike will be soul destroying and uncomfortable, while opening it up on a B road will be engaging and rewarding.

    To buy a sportier bike with the intent of riding it sedately wouldn't be a wise move.
    Good advice, and something I'll bear in mind; it wouldn't surprise me if Ben over at Herts Triumph says something similar to me (I emailed him on the subject yesterday evening).

  30. #530
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    I still maintain you wont go far wrong with a Street Triple. I actually went to Youles Mcr on friday to have a look at the new RS version. Loved everything about it. Talking to the sales manager who sold me my Striple a few years back and I was telling him I honestly regret selling it. I am seriously thinking of chopping my S1000RR in for one. Iím only a shortarse as well and have no issues with one of these. No wonder they get best naked awards for fun.

    Stuart


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  31. #531
    Not sure if this helps...

  32. #532
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    ^^^ Where is this?

  33. #533
    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    ^^^ Where is this?
    Oxford BMW.

    I met up with Duncan earlier and the just happened to have some offers on

  34. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by j0hnbarker View Post
    Not sure thatís applicable to the R9T. The F bikes werenít built in Berlin like the 9.

    The straight bike is beautifully made - the tank for example is wonderfully finished.
    Exactly. The original R9T is a beautifully finished premium product, the F650 must be just about the cheapest bike in the line up, competing with ER6ís and other commuter bikes

  35. #535
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    I have to admit, having played with some I'm loving the R9T now as much as the Triumphs. I can't wait to compare them in testing.

    Big week coming up!

  36. #536
    Just got back from an enjoyable ride around on mine. Good luck this week!

  37. #537
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j0hnbarker View Post
    Just got back from an enjoyable ride around on mine. Good luck this week!
    Thanks John.

  38. #538
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gyp View Post
    Not sure if this helps...
    Those are stunning reductions/ contributions on some classy bikes. September first month of the new reg plus last month in the quarter, must be a key sales month.

  39. #539
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    I just completed my CBT today and I've been following this thread with interest, thank you OP!

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  40. #540
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadBoyR View Post
    I just completed my CBT today and I've been following this thread with interest, thank you OP!

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    Well done! Are you stopping there, or will you be taking a similar route to me?

  41. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    Well done! Are you stopping there, or will you be taking a similar route to me?
    thanks, Same route as you, got my next 3 hour lesson on a 125 tomorrow morning. I was looking at a Harley Sportster, but I've settled for a Ducati supersport s as my first bike.

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  42. #542
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Nice bike - itís kind of like a faired version of what Iím looking at in many ways.

    Good luck tomorrow - youíll love it.

  43. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    Throwing a spanner in the works Tony, have you considered the small Harleyís?!
    Tony, my mate is selling this Harley that would be perfect for you...


  44. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by hhhh View Post
    Tony, my mate is selling this Harley that would be perfect for you...

    Isnít the other one a real T120?
    Well, everybody in Casablanca has problems. Yours may work out.

  45. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Isnít the other one a real T120?
    Itís a 1968 TR6c. All original and very lovely.

  46. #546
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hhhh View Post
    Itís a 1968 TR6c. All original and very lovely.
    Oooh, lovely!

  47. #547
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    Quote Originally Posted by hhhh View Post
    Itís a 1968 TR6c. All original and very lovely.
    Thank you. Right make, wrong bike ID.
    Must work harder
    Well, everybody in Casablanca has problems. Yours may work out.

  48. #548
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    Quote Originally Posted by learningtofly View Post
    Nice bike - itís kind of like a faired version of what Iím looking at in many ways.

    Good luck tomorrow - youíll love it.
    It is indeed, I am really enjoying myself and annoyed that I delayed it for so long, thanks.

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  49. #549
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    Add me to the list of people who are enjoying this thread. Iím on a similar journey (although a few weeks behind, with the theory booked for next week and a seven day intensive DAS planned in late October).

    At 57, and just retired, itís been close to 40 years since I spent time on a motorcycle - so this is well overdue. My usage will be purely for pleasure, aiming mainly for day trips into the Peak District and Wales.

    As far as bikes go, this thread has been rather typical of things - and my own thoughts - starting with a basic and sensible requirement and steadily building up the cost, specification and scope. :)

  50. #550
    Grand Master learningtofly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downer View Post
    Add me to the list of people who are enjoying this thread. Iím on a similar journey (although a few weeks behind, with the theory booked for next week and a seven day intensive DAS planned in late October).

    At 57, and just retired, itís been close to 40 years since I spent time on a motorcycle - so this is well overdue. My usage will be purely for pleasure, aiming mainly for day trips into the Peak District and Wales.

    As far as bikes go, this thread has been rather typical of things - and my own thoughts - starting with a basic and sensible requirement and steadily building up the cost, specification and scope. :)
    Great stuff!

    Donít tell anyone, but when this journey started I told Burnsey I was going to buy a CB300F

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