Reply With QuoteBob - it was a joy to see your progress through the pictures.
Impressive quality on one movement not so on the other.
Thank you for spending the time on that.
Much appreciated.
:) :)
Brian
Miscellaneous.
Bridge screws.
1600 x n.
Full size.
Pallet bridges.
1600 x n.
Full size.
1600 x n.
Full size.
Barrels.
1600 x n.
Full size.
Set levers.
1600 x n.
Full size.
Main plates.
1600 x n.
Full size.
1600 x n.
Full size.
That's about it for pictures, unless there is something in particular that someone wants to see.
What I'll do now is comment on each section, then make some overall comments (having two monitors is going to be helpful here :)).
Best wishes,
Bob
Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:20.
Bob - it was a joy to see your progress through the pictures.
Impressive quality on one movement not so on the other.
Thank you for spending the time on that.
Much appreciated.
:) :)
Brian
Great work Bob. Quite apart from the watchmaking (or unmaking) the photos are outstanding.
I suspect we are now in for a surprise?
Originally Posted by rincewind
I already feared such an outcome... :(
Is that a standard grade 2824-2 movement?
I'm going to organize my particular comments by sets of pictures to make
it easier to follow along, if you like.
I have tried to follow the following convention. The ETA goes first, if
there is a pictures of each, and is on the left if there are pictures of
both. I will call the ETA stuff, "ETA" (how original, eh?), and the
Seagull stuff "ST".
1. Overall look.
Fine. I especially like spotting. I would prefer copper.
2. Dial and timing.
The dial fits. The timing is in 5 positions is excellent. It might
well be able to meet chronometer standards.
3. Disassembly.
Fun.
4. Teaser.
The finish on the ETA balance is slightly better. But, there isn't much
in it. I don't know enough about balance theory to be able to make a
judgement about which balance shape is better, if one is.
5. Pallets.
It is in some way unfortunate that I just happened to start with this.
The pallets, by far, showed the greatest difference in finishing, etc.
There was even a hair stuck to the ST's pallet. Part of the
apparent difference is a side effect of different coloured shellac,
clear for the ETA and more amber for the ST.
However, it is pretty clear that the ETA pallet arm is better finished,
as is the nose. The stones for the ST look to be in the right place
(nearly exactly similar to the ETA). Also look at the shapes of the
fingers and horns. Nothing in it. I think that the difference is
mostly one of finishing.
It is a bit difficult to tell from my pictures, but the ST seems to have
a better pivot than the ETA. Instead of a cone coming to a point, it
has a formed point. I think that will fit the jewel better. (But would
be happy to be corrected, if I'm wrong about this.)
So, the ETA clearly has it on finish here. I think function is probably
close to a dead heat, if the ST doesn't win by a nose.
6. Escape wheel.
The first, ETA, looks better formed to me. You can see there is more of
a foot at the end of each tooth. I think that helps with the locking of
the pallet stone. The teeth on the escape wheel of the ST have very,
very minimal little feet.
The ETA also has a better finish.
However, once again, and much more clearly, you can see that the ST has
a better formed pivot.
7. Offset center wheel.
Here you can see that the ST has much better formed teeth. It seems
that ETA has been moving from epicycloidal teeth to trianglar teeth, at
least for their ordinary mechanical movements. Notice how the ST teeth
have a bit of roundedness, where the ETA teeth are much more angular.
The epicycloidal teeth are just about optimal for minimizing friction.
The ST uses bigger pinions. (Why, I know not.)
Both have conical pivots.
8. Balance.
Nothing in it as far as I can see. The ETA has a small crescent on the
safety roller. (Again, I don't know why. I'm not up to speed on
crescent goodness.) It was of interest to find that the hairspring is
fixed to the stud by shellac or some adhesive, and that pins aren't
used.
9. Miscellaneous.
a. Screws. These are bridge screws. The ST's screws are much nicer to
use. That extra thread mades a big difference. However, they were both
crummy compared to old fashioned bridge screws.
b. Pallet bridges. The ETA are slight better finished.
c. Barrels. Ditto.
d. Set levers (and other dial side parts). The ST bits seemed to be
just a tad better finished than the ETA ones.
e. Main plates. The base plate of the ETA is slightly better finished.
The ST finishing with spots just where it can be seen seems a bit dodgy
to me.
10. What I didn't look at.
There's lots more that could be done. For example, I didn't look at the
gearing, the efficiency of the automatic winding system, or the type of metal
used for the mainspring and hairspring.
Overall.
I did some checking of shake, etc., when I was taking the ST apart. It
seemed okay. (I'm no great shakes at checking shake.) Other parts fit
well.
The ETA is more cleanly finished. That seemed pretty clear
throughout. The only place where the finish of the ST seemed off by a
bunch is on the pallet. The rest of it looked pretty decent. There are
machine marks on various bits, which you don see as readily on the ETA.
I suspect that the ST is designed on an older version of
the 2824. If the 2824-2 that I saw had only had changes from the older
version that were thought to improve performance, it would be no
contest. However, it seems to me that some changes may well have had to
do with economizing. For example, I was pretty surprised to find that
the ST have better formed teeth on its wheels.
I was pleasantly surprised by how well the ST performed. Even more so
after I took it apart. It wasn't as clean as I would have hoped. There
were a couple of hairs in there, and a bit of dirt. Nothing too
drastic, but noticable.
Would I want a watch with the ST24? I'm not really all that keen on
automatics, but I think that, other things being equal, I would be just
as happy with an ST24 as with a basic ETA model, if not slightly more
so. I suspect that it will perform at least as well, and possibly
better.
If the finishing were just a tad cleaner (especially the pallet), and
the movement too, it would be no contest at all.
Since the next one I'm going to do, the ST26 (2892 clone) is supposed to
be the top of the pops, I'm looking forward to looking at it.
Best wishes,
Bob
Great work Bob!
I'd bin the Seagull after seeing your pictures. Crap IMO. I don't care if it's cheap or not... cheap crap is still crap.
Oliver
I'm going to put together a watch with it. It will be quite a performer, I think.
Best wishes,
Bob
Did you post this before reading Bob's conclusions? I thought Bob decided that the ST was possibly slightly better?
Bob's summation in no way supports the assertion that the Seagull is crap. If you read the summation, how did you form that opinion?
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
A base model. If you want to send me a chronometer version, well .... ;)
Best wishes,
Bob
Thanks Bob - very interesting.
If anyone is wondering what the difference between a 2824 and 2892 then read here >>> http://www.bernardwatch.com/ETA-2824...892-Comparison
.
Thanks Bob. Looking forward to the rest of the work.
john
I've read Bob's summation. But the pics speak a thousand words IMO....Bob's summation in no way supports the assertion that the Seagull is crap. If you read the summation, how did you form that opinion?
Eddie
It's only my very humble opinion, but I wouldn't want that movement in any of my watches. They obviously don't care enough about the overall quality of their movements - to me it's not only that the timekeeping is OK, the finish has to be OK too.
I don't care if a watch costs more with an ETA movement, I'd happily pay for it.
Great work, Bob. Many, many thanks.
Based upon the photographic evidence shown, I think your conclusions are accurate, and well supported. I'm not sure Olliver read it (your detailed report and conclusions) as closely as some of the rest of us.
Thank you, again, Bob.
I am afraid I feel the same. And as we are not talking about a hell of a lot of money ... for a Chinese movement to impress me, it would have to be the same cost as a Swiss one but offering superior quality.
john
The Seagull looked to be OK to me. Whatever warm and fuzzy I used to get when I read "Swiss Made" is long gone. I only have two issues with the Seagull. The first is the hair and crud in the movement. I would like to be reassured that the movements would be inspected and thoroughly cleaned before the watch was assembled. I would assume this to be the case but I would ask before purchasing. The other issue is with parts and servicing. I would like to hear that spares are available and that there would be a place I could send it if I ever needed service.
Fantastic review Bob, many thanks!
Do you think the parts are interchangeable?
I'm not as think as you drunk I am.
Iīm not Bob :D but he said that some pinions donīt have the same diameter......some of the other parts seem quite similar to me.
I suspect that some parts are interchangable, but I woldn't bet on it.
As a teaser, here is the timing for the ST26 (2892).
The rate is a bit better on this than on the ST24. The difference between slowest and fastest is smaller at 5.51 s/d rather than 6.75. The overall rate is -1.91 s/d. It does have a larger variation in amplitude and beat, however.
Best wishes,
Bob
Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:21.
The only thing that bothered me was the lint on the parts. But, then I have taken apart ETAs that looked like they were used as a cotton gin at one time.
If you think the quality of the finish is sub-par on the ST, try looking at a Miyota or a Seiko under high magnification.
Some of the lint was from me, I suspect. E.g., positioning it for pictures. However, as I said, it wasn't as clean as it should have been.
Best wishes,
Bob
One last thing Bob,
Before you time the other one, could you pop it in the freezer for a few minutes and then time it, then let it warm up to room temp to see how much timing is affected by temperature.
That should give an idea of how the hairspring material compares to the stuff used by ETA.
EDIT: Oops, maybe too late for this test.
Take the above one to be the room temperature one, although a coolish room temperature. I've popped it in the freezer, and will time it again in about 20 minutes.
Best wishes,
Bob
Bye the bye. The photos were taken with the K10D and either a Brunel microscope (BM-1, longarm stereo) either set up for 10x or 20x, or an Elicar 90mm macro lens. (I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to figure out which pictures were taken with which setup.) For lighting, I used a 105W daylight flourescent lamp.
Best wishes,
Bob
Where was the Eta made? :twisted:I am afraid I feel the same. And as we are not talking about a hell of a lot of money ... for a Chinese movement to impress me, it would have to be the same cost as a Swiss one but offering superior quality.
john
I think that the summary above shows that seagull is a notch behind ETA for the cheap movements, and that the "notch" is more related to finish than to function. I wonder whether the pallets results for the seagull are not a bit unfair: it looks crap, yes, but the jewels are EXACTLY where they should be for the watch working properly. On the contrary, the hairspring and balance pics are very impressive in showing how simmilar they are. All in all, I think that the seagull shows that their finish is a little bit unequal, but give them two years and they will be there...Well, my two cents......
That comparison is superb...very interesting. I suspect your knowledge of watchmaking means you see through the finishing aspects that is being focussed on by us non-experts. My overall impression from your post is that the manufacturing process for the ST is typical of chinese production. It seems the niceties of the ETA finishing are discarded as a waste of effort to improve output volume and produce the movement at the lowest possible cost. I wouldn't have a problem as long as in the experts eyes, the movement was accurate and robust. The only worry I'd have is one of overall quality control...especially concerning the foreign artifacts inside the movement.
Here are the results after 25 minutes in the freezer.
Best wishes,
Bob
Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:21.
Extremely interesting Bob, many thanks for your effort on this. Can I ask what your opinion is of the pallet stones on the ST? The images below would suggest that they are chipped and have more flaws than the ETA. In your opinion are they likely to be more fragile and prone to wear more quickly?
I looked again under the microscope. Then I cleaned them and looked again. I'm afraid that I can't find any chips or flaws in them.
Stone 1.
Stone 2.
Best wishes,
Bob
Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:22.
Thanks Bob, they look much better in the second set of pictures. Now i can see that what i thought may be imperfections were actually a result of being able to view the surface below through the stones :roll:I looked again under the microscope. Then I cleaned them and looked again. I'm afraid that I can't find any chips or flaws in them.
Very good thread this one. Does anyone know what the availability of spare parts is, or will be with the Seagul movements ? If parts are available will they be available to independant Watchmakers ? This may be an advantage for ETA currently in my opinion as all mechanical watches require service at some point in time.
The temperature test reveals the hairspring is probably capable of meeting the standards in ISO 3159.
Just guesses at the temperature, but it seems to run near 0.70 s/d/C, ISO requires 0.6 s/d/C.
Not bad.
Thanks about the pictures. I was more pleased with them than I expected to be. Apparently, I'm coming pretty close to having A SYSTEM. ;)
Best wishes,
Bob
I am afraid I feel the same. And as we are not talking about a hell of a lot of money ... for a Chinese movement to impress me, it would have to be the same cost as a Swiss one but offering superior quality.
john
But surely the real issue is the same as the one with Damasko, availability!
It isn't simply a matter of paying a bit more and getting your ETA movements, it's whether enough ETA movements are made available outside of Swatch to enable new watch models to be produced and existing watches to continue in sufficient numbers to make it worth the smaller independent brands staying in business. :evil:
And currently the answer is NO.
Remember, to get ETA movements in any quantity and at manufacturer pricing, you have to be forward ordering for about a year ahead. This is the reason there is so much "horse trading" amongst manufacturers and suppliers. Often the only way to get more stock is to hope someone else has over-ordered or built less than forecast and will trade some of their "spares".
We all keep nudging Eddie about new models, but unless we can find and accept an alternative to ETA, don't hold your breath about when they can be built.
Sorry to go on a bit, but this is the reality of the situation and we have to get on and deal with it.
I've disassembled the ST26. It is much, much, cleaner. No hairballs, or anything. Things also look better finished. This looks an altogether tidier movement. I would be interested in knowing the price differential between them (e.g., 2x).
Top of the pallet.
1600 x n.
Full size.
Bottom of the pallet.
1600 x n.
Full size.
I'll take some more pictures tomorrow.
Best wishes,
Bob
Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:22.
Sure thing, Geoff. On the other hand is the availability of servicing and replacing parts an the Seagull side. 4 years ago all Chinese watches were utter crap but they are catching fast. Considering that for a normal use of an automatic the service period is 4 years maybe we should expect more from a Chinese movement than we are now.
Edit: It seems Bob and I posted at about the same time.
Bob: It would be interesting how these movements behave in different conditions: temperature, magnetism, shock. I never doubted they are able to copy something, the Chinese are a lot that can paint a whole battle on a rice grain, but rather the quality of materials and behavior.
We did the temp. above. It has standard shock protection. About the magnetism, I don't have any instruments to measure it, unfortunately.
Best wishes,
Bob
I know, I've seen the results.We did the temp. above.
Edit: Also the movement will be fitted into an anti-magnetic cage, if I read the specs correctly.
Here are more pictures of the ST26 (2892 clone).
ST26.
1600 x n.
Full size.
Balance.
1600 x n.
Full size.
1600 x n.
Full size.
1600 x n.
Full size.
1600 x n.
Full size.
Top of the pallet. (Repeat from earlier in thread.)
1600 x n.
Full size.
Bottom of the pallet. (Repeat from earlier in thread.)
1600 x n.
Full size.
Bottom of the automatic winding system.
1600 x n.
Full size.
Non-visible side of the barrel.
1600 x n.
Full size.
Bottom (underneath part) of the barrel bridge.
1600 x n.
Full size.
Escape wheel. Notice the much better club feet on this, as compared to the ST24.
1600 x n.
Full size.
Offset centre wheel.
1600 x n.
Full size.
Top plate.
1600 x n.
Full size.
Bottom plate.
1600 x n.
Full size.
Performance after 25 minutes in the freezer. (Repeated from earlier in the thread.)
Performance at room temperature. (Repeated from earlier in the thread.)
Discussion.
This movement is a different kettle of fish from the previous one (ST24). It was clean. No grime, no hairs, no excess of oil. Also, things had a better functional finish. I would say that the functional finishing wasn't quite up to the standards of the basic model ETA 2824 I used for the comparison with the ST24. However, I would say that there isn't much in it. In addition, this is just a more interesting movement. They are trying to save space, and you can see how it affects the design. For example, the click, etc., is hidden under the barrel bridge. Another interesting feature is that the regulator pins seem to be set up for a Breguet hairspring. I suspect that there is enough room in there for an overcoil.
I don't have an ETA 2892 with which to compare this. My guess is that the ETA 2892 is somewhat better. I can compare it to a base model ETA 2842. I thought that it was a close run thing between the ST24 and the ETA 2842. I don't think that it is between this ST26 and the base model ETA 2842. I would much rather have the ST26. It performs well and it looks good. Also, it seems more interesting. What I would really like to know is whether modules for the 2892 would fit it. Also, how interchangeable the parts are between it and the ETA 2892. If modules would fit, that would be seriously interesting. If parts would work, well, by golly, that would be great.
Best wishes,
Bob
PS If there are pictures of other bits that you want, let me know.
RLF
PPS Since I have different files for each image size (800x, 1600x, and full size), it turns out that I have a bit over 72MB of pictures for this. This doesn't count the ones I didn't use. :shock:
RLF
Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:23.
I'm interested to see whether you can tweak the ST26 for better performance Bob. Both movements supplied are exactly as they left the factory and the ST24 performed better than many 2824 do ex-factory, the performance of the ST26 isn't too shabby either.
I've heard that components are not interchangeable with ETA movements but spares are plentiful from Seagull, perhaps not so with other Chinese factories. It's not my first choice to use Chinese movements but it's extremely difficult to obtain ETA movements now and they insist that all movements leaving the factory must now have the name or logo of the company ordering the movements etched or engraved on the movement. If anyone can come up with 500 ETA2824 at a sensible price, I'll take them tomorrow.
Many thanks for the time and effort you put into this project Bob, it's extremely useful and greatly appreciated.
Eddie
Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".
Bob,excellent thread and pics. I do not want to distort the discussion here, but I thought it may be a good idea to show a pair of pics from the pallet of a lower quality chinese movement (coming from a Trolex). Before posting the pic, let me put forward my conclusions. First, the pallet of the ST24 looks poor compared to this one, so maybe Bob has just been unlucky with the ST24 he got...Second, it also has a hair! But maybe it is easy to get contamination from the environment. Have you tried to see whether the hair in the pallet of the ST24 could be removed?
I cleaned it, and the hair came off.
Look, we all know that light matters. I was trying to use the same setup, as much as possible, for all the pictures. It means that things aren't always presented in the best light, as it were. I was hoping to give an overall impression of the similarities and differences. I wasn't trying to make a particular case (with the pictures). I left off the conclusion until I was finished taking pictures.
Just by adjusting the light I could have made the ST24 pallets look much better, and the ETA ones much worse. But, it seemed to me that the ST one was less well finished (looking at it in many lights), but functionally it seemed okay, and with regard to other bits, the ST24 wasn't too far off the ETA 2824 in finish.
If I wanted to present things (the ST24) in the best light (no photo editing, except for sharpening the compressed pictures), I would have presented photos after cleaning the pallet and adjusting the light. Here are some. Use these instead, if you like..
ST24 (2842 clone), the top side of the pallet.
1600 x n
full size
ST24 (2842 clone), the bottom side of the pallet.
1600 x n
full size
Best wishes,
Bob
PS The top of the pallet is shiny. This picture is under a microscope. I could show the shininess, if you want.
RLF
Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:24.
Yes, Bob, you have a point there: my pics were edited with Photoshop and the worst thing is that I didinīt think on how that affects the results. Clearly, you have a method.
Best wishes
It will probably go all pear shaped, but I'm off to the shed to clean it (while smoking a cigar), then I'll oil it and put enough of it back together to time it.
I'm not going to clean the automatic winding system (indeed, I won't even put it back on until it is cased up). Since the mainspring is new, and the inside of the barrel looks clean, I'll leave that be.
Best wishes,
Bob
Just a quick question relating to Seagull, do they make a GMT movement of any type ?
Thanks for all the work you put in, interesting info and pics Bob 8)
karl
Great work, Bob.
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