closing tag is in template navbar
timefactors watches



TZ-UK Fundraiser
Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 199

Thread: Seagull movements.

  1. #1

    Seagull movements.

    Eddie sent me a couple of movements, a ST24 (ETA 2824 base) and a ST26 (ETA 2892 base). He asked me if I would take a look at them, which I'm pleased to do.

    Here's my (very) tentative plan. When I get home tomorrow I will time them in position. At the weekend, I'll take apart the ST24. I happen to have a spare ETA 2824-2. I'll also take it apart to be able to make some comparisons. Sometime next week I'll do the ST26.

    Eddie already said that he would like a close look at the teeth of the wheels. If there is anything else that you would like closely examined, let me know.

    They certainly look pretty (although I'm keener on copper finishes).

    ST24


    ST26


    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:16.

  2. #2
    Craftsman Kaiser's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    882

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Hi Bob,

    Take a look at the hair springs and compare them to the ETA's. This may give some idea of the quality of the movements as well. Finish is not everything now is it.

  3. #3
    Grand Master magirus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Up North hinny
    Posts
    31,419

    Re: Seagull movements.

    I look forward to your opinions on these movements as more than a few of us will probably own a watch powered by them in the future. :)

  4. #4
    Master
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Frisco, Texas, USA
    Posts
    3,195

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Bob, I look forward to your observations.

    I must say, from the pictures anyway, these look well made and well finished. Looks can be deceiving...

    Are those Kif shock protected, Bob?

  5. #5
    Grand Master Seamaster73's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Scottish Riviera
    Posts
    15,439

    Re: Seagull movements.

    An excellent project, Bob. Very much looking forward to reading your opinion.

  6. #6

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael in Frisco, Texas
    Are those Kif shock protected, Bob?

    It looks like the ST24 has Kif, and the ST26 has Inca.

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  7. #7
    Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Auburn Hills, Michigan
    Posts
    2,389

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Did anyone else think this thread was going to be about Bob's new bike saddle being soiled by a sea bird?

  8. #8

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grath
    Did anyone else think this thread was going to be about Bob's new bike saddle being soiled by a sea bird?
    Excellent!

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  9. #9
    Master
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Auburn Hills, Michigan
    Posts
    2,389

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Quote Originally Posted by rfrazier
    Quote Originally Posted by Grath
    Did anyone else think this thread was going to be about Bob's new bike saddle being soiled by a sea bird?
    Excellent!

    Best wishes,
    Bob

    Thank you. I was particularly proud of the piece of alliteration I was able to work in there. :D

  10. #10
    Master
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    In bed
    Posts
    6,028

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Same here, looking forward to Bobs verdict :)

    karl

  11. #11
    Master doug darter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Shropshire, UK, by the grace of God.
    Posts
    8,687

    Re: Seagull movements.

    The only thing that I've heard can be iffy with these, is that some of the wheels can be slightly eccentric.

  12. #12

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Bob, take a look at how the 2892 is built: I have one and my impression is that they are "overengineered", I mean sometimes too many screws to get everything in place...

  13. #13
    Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Tunbridge Wells
    Posts
    2,153

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Nice movement shots btw.

    What do you use to time movements? I'm looking for something to check a few watches and wondered what is around for not too much money.

    Tra

    JasonG

  14. #14

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonG
    Nice movement shots btw.

    What do you use to time movements? I'm looking for something to check a few watches and wondered what is around for not too much money.

    Tra

    JasonG

    The timer I use is a software program for windows that I'm running under linux. It is 299 GBPs now, but I think it was a bit cheaper when I got it. (Escapement Analyzer.) I eventually paid another 180 GBPs (all in -- shipping, VAT, etc.) for a really nice, refurbished, watch microphone, although the microphone it came with isn't too bad.

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  15. #15
    Master Bernard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    the Netherlands
    Posts
    3,073

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Dear Bob,

    I would like to see a comparison of the escapement, especially the finish on the underside, the quality of the pallet stones.

  16. #16
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Kuala Lumpur/London
    Posts
    19,206

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Looking forward to seeing your review. As the others have said, pallet stones and hairspring are a good indicator of quality...but as are gear teeth - very few of the chinese movements correctly reproduce the epicycloidal teeth used by ETA to reduce friction...

  17. #17
    Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    6,257

    Re: Seagull movements.

    We're looking forward for your report, Bob.

  18. #18
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Salzburg, Austria
    Posts
    16,435

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Btw, TZ-UK member pugwash has set up a very nice page about chinese movements:

    http://jearle.free.fr/pugwash/


    Thank you for all your effort Bob :-)
    We can't stop here, this is bat country.


  19. #19

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Thanks for doing this Bob,

    I'm looking forward to seeing all the results in your posts.

    regards

    siggy

  20. #20
    Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Tunbridge Wells
    Posts
    2,153

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Quote Originally Posted by rfrazier
    The timer I use is a software program for windows that I'm running under linux. It is 299 GBPs now, but I think it was a bit cheaper when I got it.
    Hiho,

    TBH that is rather more than I was looking to spend! Have you any experience of the "Windows Time Machine"? I seem to remember this was a round a year or two back but haven't noticed it recently. I can put together the microphone and amplification as necessary myself so it's just a matter of getting something to analyse captured sound files (from the built-in soundcard on a PC).

    Tra

    JasonG

  21. #21

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasonG
    Quote Originally Posted by rfrazier
    The timer I use is a software program for windows that I'm running under linux. It is 299 GBPs now, but I think it was a bit cheaper when I got it.
    Hiho,

    TBH that is rather more than I was looking to spend! Have you any experience of the "Windows Time Machine"? I seem to remember this was a round a year or two back but haven't noticed it recently. I can put together the microphone and amplification as necessary myself so it's just a matter of getting something to analyse captured sound files (from the built-in soundcard on a PC).

    Tra

    JasonG
    Yes, I have a license for it. It is really intended for clocks. I couldn't get a clean enough signal as regularly as I would like. Also, I think it doesn't do amplitude. However, with a better microphone than I was using, you might have more luck. (Or you have some more sophisticated filtering software.) So, give it a try. I think there is a demo.

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  22. #22

    Re: Seagull movements.

    For this, I was thinking about showing pictures at 800 x n, with links to full size pictures. The maximum full size is 3888 x n, depending on crop. Or is that just too big to be useful, and something like 1600 for the large one better?

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  23. #23
    Administrator swanbourne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Sheffield, England
    Posts
    46,435

    Re: Seagull movements.

    As big as you want for me Bob, others may disagree. :wink:

    Eddie
    Whole chunks of my life come under the heading "it seemed like a good idea at the time".

  24. #24
    Grand Master Daddelvirks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Leiden- Netherlands
    Posts
    27,115
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Wow,

    So now not only Sellita, but also the Chinese are making clones of the popular ETA movements, I didn't know that.
    If they can deliver them in a range of qualities, like ETA, and all for a sharp price, there's going to be less Swiss Made on the dials.
    Well, let's wait and see.

    Cheers,

    Daddel.
    Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!

  25. #25

    Re: Seagull movements.

    I've decided to complete the ST24 (2824) before doing anything with the ST26 (2892).

    Can it take dials for the ETA movement? Yes, no problem.


    So, now on to the timing. I have a nifty watch microphone, which swirls and twirls so that you can time in position. The program I use allows for this too.



    I timed it as I got it: no regulation, no adjustment of beat, no nothing. Here are the results.


    I timed it in 5 positions. Pendant (crown) down, pendant left, pendant up, dial down and dial up.

    The beat average was .12ms, which is very good. It might be possible to get it down a bit, but I think that anything under .25 is really quite good.

    The amplitude average was 286.2, and pretty consistent. One wants it above about 275, and under 315 (or so -- I can seldom remember the higher end). I think that this is a very good average, and it was good in each position.

    The overall rate was 4.19 s/d, which is very good. But even more importantly, the biggest difference was 6.75 s/d between PD and PU, which is excellent. The main timing dimensions, DU and PD showed a difference of less than 4 s/d.

    Overall, it is an excellent performance, I think.

    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:17.

  26. #26
    Grand Master magirus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Up North hinny
    Posts
    31,419

    Re: Seagull movements.

    So far so good then, thanks for that. :)

  27. #27
    Master Jim:'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Aotearoa
    Posts
    3,227

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Good work, Bob. I think the results of your studies will be pretty influential to many on this forum.

    Cheers,

    Jim :)

  28. #28

    Re: Seagull movements.

    thanks for the effort in this. I am really looking forward to seeing the details :D

  29. #29
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    nr haverhill
    Posts
    282

    Re: Seagull movements.

    i am imprssed with your technical ability and look forward to the next one and hope for an equaly good performance.

  30. #30

    Re: Seagull movements.

    The easy part is done.



    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:17.

  31. #31

    Re: Seagull movements.

    A teaser before I call it a day.


    1600 x n
    full size

    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:18.

  32. #32

    Re: Seagull movements.

    So what's that then.....then...

    Seagull 2824 version on the right? compared to a Swiss 2824 on the left :?:

    Trouble is I'm not skilled enough to notice any difference which I could say makes one superior to the other :roll:

    I await your verdict Bob.

    regards

    siggy

  33. #33
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Salzburg, Austria
    Posts
    16,435

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Incredible work Bob!
    I'm actually very pleased with the outcome so far :-)
    We can't stop here, this is bat country.


  34. #34
    Grand Master Daddelvirks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Leiden- Netherlands
    Posts
    27,115
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Judging by the look of the balance, the one on the right is the Swiss 2824?
    Marvellous work.

    Cheers,

    Daddel.
    Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!

  35. #35

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Pallets.

    Overview.

    1600 x n.
    Full size.

    Closeups.

    1600 x n.
    Full size.


    1600 x n.
    Full size.

    Side view, concentrating on the center arm.

    1600 x n.
    Full size.


    1600 x n.
    Full size.

    Side view, concentrating on a stone.

    1600 x n.
    Full size.


    1600 x n.
    Full size.

    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:18.

  36. #36
    Master
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Riyadh, KSA
    Posts
    5,438

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Quite a marked difference there

  37. #37
    Master
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Fens, UK
    Posts
    1,951

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Very interesting Bob....not sure which is ETA and which seagull but the one on the right looks to be shockingly bad in terms of quality !

  38. #38
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    earth
    Posts
    193

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Ouch. Think I can tell which is which :(

  39. #39
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Salzburg, Austria
    Posts
    16,435

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Ouch :shock:
    We can't stop here, this is bat country.


  40. #40

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Escape wheel.

    Concentrating on main wheel.

    1600 x n.
    Full size.


    1600 x n.
    Full size.

    Concentrating on pinion (where it meshes with 4th wheel).

    1600 x n.
    Full size.


    1600 x n.
    Full size.

    Profile.

    1600 x n.
    Full size.


    1600 x n.
    Full size.

    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:19.

  41. #41
    Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,693

    Re: Seagull movements.

    I'd be nervous about opening a case, let alone disassembling a movement!

    It's very interesting and informative to see this comparison. Great stuff!

  42. #42
    Grand Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Salzburg, Austria
    Posts
    16,435

    Re: Seagull movements.

    I did not expect such a difference at all.
    We can't stop here, this is bat country.


  43. #43

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Quote Originally Posted by mr1973
    I did not expect such a difference at all.

    The fat lady hasn't sung yet.

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  44. #44

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Offset center wheel.

    (I couldn't get the entire wheel into the frame.)

    Concentrating on main wheel.

    1600 x n.
    Full size.


    1600 x n.
    Full size.

    Concentrating on pinion.

    1600 x n.
    Full size.


    1600 x n.
    Full size.

    Profile.
    Concentrating on main wheel.

    1600 x n.
    Full size.


    1600 x n.
    Full size.

    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:19.

  45. #45
    Craftsman
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    the country where every village is a nation
    Posts
    366

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Thanks Bob, very illustrative :?
    How can this affect the long term performance would be the main issue here

  46. #46

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Quote Originally Posted by flieger
    Thanks Bob, very illustrative :?
    How can this affect the long term performance would be the main issue here
    I've not come to any concusion yet, and am putting off any discussion/evaluation until I've got all the evidence. Then I'll say what I think. Others can say what they think when they want.

    Best wishes,
    Bob

  47. #47
    Master raysablade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Newcastle
    Posts
    4,884

    Re: Seagull movements.

    My view is that the Vanguard should use a Miyota, I'd like to see one of those dis-assembled.

  48. #48
    Grand Master Neil.C's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    SE England
    Posts
    23,897

    Re: Seagull movements.

    There seems to be a lot of difference in the quality between the two movements but then one is probably a lot cheaper than the other.

    I'll be interested in your final evaluation Bob.
    Cheers,
    Neil.

    My Speedmaster website:

    http://www.freewebs.com/neil271052

  49. #49
    Grand Master Daddelvirks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Leiden- Netherlands
    Posts
    27,115
    Blog Entries
    1

    Re: Seagull movements.

    It's allways interesting to know what's moving around in your watch.
    And with these razor-sharp pics you get very clear view.
    A job for the patient I reckon :) .

    Now let's wait for the outcome,

    Thanks,

    Daddel.
    Got a new watch, divers watch it is, had to drown the bastard to get it!

  50. #50

    Re: Seagull movements.

    Balance.

    Impulse jewel.

    1600 x n.
    Full size.


    1600 x n.
    Full size.

    Bottom of stud carrier..

    1600 x n.
    Full size.


    1600 x n.
    Full size.

    Bottom of regulator (pins)

    1600 x n.
    Full size.


    1600 x n.
    Full size.

    Forming hairspring to stud.

    1600 x n.
    Full size.


    1600 x n.
    Full size.

    Best wishes,
    Bob
    Last edited by rfrazier; 9th November 2014 at 03:20.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •