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Thread: Which cabrio?

  1. #351
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy100 View Post
    That's pretty good, with some lightweight seats presumably it'll be starting with an 8?
    That is the goal. Nów. It was not earlier.

    Frankly, I was not expecting thís much of a difference even though it should be mentioned that the vehicle docs. weight is with the fuel tank full.
    It is the really real measured weight on an official weighbridge of the car as I drove it up from the village after dropping off Mountain Girl.

    I already have the budget set apart, but... the charming company.
    Still have some time before ordering though as I have not yet found OEM mounting brackets/rails.
    Last edited by Huertecilla; 7th May 2019 at 18:39.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  2. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    That is the goal. Nów. It was not earlier.

    Frankly, I was not expecting thís much of a difference even though it should be mentioned that the vehicle docs. weight is with the fuel tank full.
    It is the really real measured weight on an official weighbridge of the car as I drove it up from the village after dropping off Mountain Girl.

    I already have the budget set apart, but... the charming company.
    Still have some time before ordering though as I have not yet found OEM mounting brackets/rails.
    Is it easier to simply remove the passenger seat and bolt it back in when you have company?
    You can live in your car but you can't drive your house.

  3. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy100 View Post
    Is it easier to simply remove the passenger seat and bolt it back in when you have company?
    Well, there is the trade off between a huge multiple hassle ónce and a minor MÚLTIPLE hassle as the latter is several times/week.
    I also could replace just mý seat but that would annoy me to no end every time I use the car.
    Anyway; a luxury ´problem´.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  4. #354
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    The seat story is turning into a sage with devided points of view and opinions.
    Not just mine!
    Looks like your suggestion Foxy is not at all bad. I can fit just mine and take the passenger´s seat out. That would save the most weight on the seats ánd on the pasenger :-)
    To be continued....

    Another thing I have looked into several times over the past decennia, with different conclusions, is lexan windows.
    Those dó save about half the weight of the glass ánd come with several additional advantages. On the MR, it would save a whiff over 3 kilos on the two door windows. Not cheap though as they are thermoformed ánd need be hardcoated both sides.
    Not sure whether that is worth bothering Mr. Mike Templar about.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  5. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    The seat story is turning into a sage with devided points of view and opinions.
    Not just mine!
    Looks like your suggestion Foxy is not at all bad. I can fit just mine and take the passenger´s seat out. That would save the most weight on the seats ánd on the pasenger :-)
    To be continued....

    Another thing I have looked into several times over the past decennia, with different conclusions, is lexan windows.
    Those dó save about half the weight of the glass ánd come with several additional advantages. On the MR, it would save a whiff over 3 kilos on the two door windows. Not cheap though as they are thermoformed ánd need be hardcoated both sides.
    Not sure whether that is worth bothering Mr. Mike Templar about.

    Polycarbonate windows age and scratch very quickly, ok in race cars but not sure I would want them in a road car

  6. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Polycarbonate windows age and scratch very quickly, ok in race cars but not sure I would want them in a road car
    A friend put a polycarbonate windscreen on his MGB GT. A very bad move, it instantly rendered his windscreen wipers useless as any dirt on the screen would scratch it and make it a PITA in sunlight. I wouldn't even bother for door glass, it's not worth the effort. Easier to suggest to the glamourous company that they go on diets...


    ...and then you can permanently remove the passenger seat!
    You can live in your car but you can't drive your house.

  7. #357
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    Thanks for the moderation about the polycarbonate.
    Only natural for a man´s mind to wander ;-)
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  8. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    Thanks for the moderation about the polycarbonate.
    Only natural for a man´s mind to wander ;-)
    You could always replace the windscreen with aero screens and throw away the roof and door glass.
    You can live in your car but you can't drive your house.

  9. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy100 View Post
    You could always replace the windscreen with aero screens and throw away the roof and door glass.
    It has been done and since I would have no c-company anyway ;-)

    One bloke in Japan even deleted the doors and welded in the partial safety cage/roll bar.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  10. #360
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    Yesterday drove down to the coast. This time slow life mode; short shiftng, not pushing it, windows down, cruising through the views.
    Decided on buying the Luso seats. Two out of three is still one up on most, so the third can tioli. Will order when I have sourced a set of OEM mountings. There should be plenty around but sofar nothing. Patience, patience. Like that is my fuerte :(

    Remember the launch campaign in Japan or at least the illustrations?





    Malagueña gf is sorting her dress for the Feria de Jerez; WOW!
    Never understood how Toyota marketing connected the MR-S with Cervantes´s windmills and Sevillana dresses but hey, in mý life it ÍS!
    Here a row of Don Quijote´s ´giants´ in Castilla-La Mancha; we had time trials right at the bottom of the hill:







    No time today but hoping to take some dress photos Tuesday.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  11. #361
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    On the theme of lightness, someone developed this for the MX-5:

    https://rev9autosport.com/project-g-...ikini-top.html

    I'd have one in a flash if I had a garage for my Healey. You could throw out the soft top and frame (about 20KG) and have a hardtop (about 20KG) for bad weather/parking the car somewhere overnight and just use the lightweight top if you're out and it rains. When I was changing over my Mk1 roof (with plastic rear screen) for a Mk2 roof (with glass rear screen, and some extra support to stop the roof fabric collapsing under the weight) I took the car out for a spin, with the passenger seat unbolted, and with 40kg missing the car felt significantly nicer to drive. I actually left it like that over winter, with the hard top on, before I grew bored not being able to take the roof down and sold the hard top. The minimalist lightweight top is a good idea though, although I'd put all the weight back on by fitting the roll cage it appears to need to sit on!
    You can live in your car but you can't drive your house.

  12. #362
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    It´s an idea adapted from 4x4 with a roll-cage.
    Good idea for a track car with roll-bar.
    The OEM soft top is lighter than a roll bar though.
    Also the bikini top is only an alternative if it would be a bit more weather resistant.
    As it is, I think a simple tonneau covering the tub is the lightest alternative for soft top removal and hard top back up.

    Your mentioning noticing 40 kilo less is a crystal clear illustration of it not being hunting a ghost but a real world noticable difference.
    I know you used to do the same as us; even ´just´ take the rear bench out because even thát is something you notice.

    Imagine how noticable is what I took off the MR2 and how motivating that is to shave off another 20 on the seats.
    Last edited by Huertecilla; 9th May 2019 at 13:13.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  13. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Sorry , IPhones are wonderful I didn’t look. I’m there on the 11th
    Whishing you an enjoyable trip.
    The weather forecast is boring; clear, sunny skies till the 16th.

    The Feria de Jeréz is on this weekend os maybe a nice destination.
    The Malageña gf is under way and will be radiant in het incredibly elegant red Sevillana dress. It is bordering on art that.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  14. #364
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    Mán is there no end to the mods????

    Adrian is having the best of weathers.
    Met him on the beach; I suggested a quaint chiringuito, like 40 years ago and the last of that breed. You sit under a century old tree, just beyond the flood line but still feet on the sand. Want to sit in the sun, shade, half shade? Pick your choice. Véry enjoyable indeed.

    On the mod. front still sourcing OEM mounting bases.

    Driving up and down between the coast and mountains a bit much, took the highway twice. Because of the weight I took out, the car now sits rather high on the springs and the combination of a raised cog and softer springing does a power of no good to the stability through long, undulating corners at speed.
    The solution seems obvious; lowering springs but, there is a big BUT as those are stiffer too whereas my car is líghter.
    Need to ponder a bit about that, but if I am to order a set of springs I´d best get some new gaiters too.

    Right, cleaned the pcv-valve.
    Simple job so .... sómething will go wrong.

    The valve looke nicely clean, no crud, no oil but did not move freely; was stuck.
    First spray wd40, check rear gaiters.
    Now spray oven cleaner.
    Check front gaiters.
    Clean the valve and presto; moving as new.
    The lightest wipe of sealant and in it goes.

    So what went wrong then?!
    The rubber hose was split :(
    Cut it just beyond, so had to reroute it and ... it split again (:< >:)
    As it is a real pita to change all the way, tightly taped it and it sits pretty again.

    Ok, the shock gaiters.
    Three ok, one split. Never mind, an all round change when I fit/mod the springs makes sense anyway.


    ...and the lady in red



    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  15. #365
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    Spent half the afternoon rolling in the dirt to measure the (increased) ride height and effect on the roll center.
    Also what the effect of lowering springs would be and the effect on the roll center.

    What clear is, is that I have created a problem by taking so much weight off.
    The ride height has increased, thus the roll centre, thus the jacking, adding up to seriously more roll and bump steer.
    The conclusion is that it neéds adressing.

    The solution is less obvious.
    Lowering springs are stiffer and go down too far, lowering the roll center which then needs be compensated for by special lower strut ball joints. All in costing €€€, ride height and a harsher ride.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  16. #366
    Can’t you get lower springs but the same rate, changing the roll centre gets complicated

    http://www.dfaulknersprings.com/

  17. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Can’t you get lower springs but the same rate, changing the roll centre gets complicated
    In this case the car is lighter so the forces are less and that caúses the increased ride height. So basically I would need same length, softer rate springs for the car to behave the same

    There are quite a lot of lowering spring sets available for this car, all lowering 30-35 mm. and having a markedly stiffer rate.
    Because they are stiffer, my car would have the same lowered ride height as the heavier OEM weight but have a harsher still ride.
    Yes, and the lowering of the roll centre: Because of the length of the lower strut and ration of that to the track width, the lower strut needs to be compensated by about the same amount as the car is lowered to maintain the hight of the roll centre.
    I don´t want all that negative complication to correct an entirely opposing issue.

    I will fírst have a look at what I can achieve with the OEM springs.
    Normally I loath shortening springs but in this case it may be exactly what is needed to restore the OEN geometry with the bonus effect of a slightly stiffer spring rate giving less roll.
    Anyway, depends on their design too and that of the spring cups.

    No, fírst measure more accurately.
    Need a level flat surface to measure real accurate to establish whether I have a 20, 25 or 30 mm. large issue.
    None seems much but on 200 mm. it is a very, 10 - 15%, undesirable increase in height of both centre of mass and roll centre.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  18. #368
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    No, firstfírst .... lífe: Grandpa needs to be taken to the airport this afternoon. My son´s gf needs to be collected wednesday, so I will stay at the coast. They both have luggage so not using the MR2.
    Neither today as grandpa and daughter Mountain girl are dead set on cramming several days´ worth of activties in the morning.
    Will measure Thúrsday I am affraid.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  19. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    No, firstfírst .... lífe: Grandpa needs to be taken to the airport this afternoon. My son´s gf needs to be collected wednesday, so I will stay at the coast. They both have luggage so not using the MR2.
    Neither today as grandpa and daughter Mountain girl are dead set on cramming several days´ worth of activties in the morning.
    Will measure Thúrsday I am affraid.
    Some reading while you are bored waiting near the airport https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics...ng/roll-centre

  20. #370
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    I have Meister Rs on my MX-5 and they're great. You can adjust the height from scraping along the ground up to OEM ride height and control the stiffness from completely relaxed to track-only, but they're really good on body roll even when set to soft. On Saturday I had an 80-mile drive to see a friend, all cross-country, and forgot I'd been messing around with the dampers to counter the slight uneasiness from the rear (lack of brace + probably the LSD too) and it was all a bit tight for that distance. The good news is when I took the dampers down a click each (took 45 seconds from stopping to pulling away again!) I have a comfortable ride, the right level of bite into corners and the rear stays where I need it to. The bad news is I now have a petrol smell on 'enthusiastic' cornering on roundabouts. And I'm now thinking about uprating my brakes to give a little more bite, they feel slightly loose after a while. And I spent the journeys there and back thinking about throttle bodies vs turbo...

    https://www.meisterr.co.uk/car/suspe...9-99-mr2-sw20/
    You can live in your car but you can't drive your house.

  21. #371
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    THANKS guys!!

    Will have a serious look at it Adrian!

    Would any of you happen to have access to a copy of Miliken & Miliken?
    On page 683 there is an equasion which, including explanation, I would really love to stress my brain matter on.

    The thing with adjustable suspension is Foxy, that I nééd to know what I am doing before I´d feel comfortable with that.
    I have had many such suspensions on my racing and enduro bikes and it took like forever to arrive at settings for different circumstances. It was/is no doubt a lot better but I positively háted it.
    On this car I would need to know/understand what the ride height setting doés first before I´d go that way.
    Been searching the varous MX5 fora too as I am ofcourse not adressing a new issue and there are several times more MX5 owners struggling with this than MR2 owners.
    As to adjustment for load with a passenger I would not bother as I simply will not nearly push the car as close to it´s limits with that added responsibility. Not to mention that the girls are sure to whack me hárd on the head the moment they have a hand free...
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  22. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy100 View Post
    I have Meister Rs on my MX-5 and they're great. You can adjust the height from scraping along the ground up to OEM ride height and control the stiffness from completely relaxed to track-only, but they're really good on body roll even when set to soft. On Saturday I had an 80-mile drive to see a friend, all cross-country, and forgot I'd been messing around with the dampers to counter the slight uneasiness from the rear (lack of brace + probably the LSD too) and it was all a bit tight for that distance. The good news is when I took the dampers down a click each (took 45 seconds from stopping to pulling away again!) I have a comfortable ride, the right level of bite into corners and the rear stays where I need it to. The bad news is I now have a petrol smell on 'enthusiastic' cornering on roundabouts. And I'm now thinking about uprating my brakes to give a little more bite, they feel slightly loose after a while. And I spent the journeys there and back thinking about throttle bodies vs turbo...

    https://www.meisterr.co.uk/car/suspe...9-99-mr2-sw20/
    Are you sure it wasn't the placebo effect, dampers that change that much with one click would be terrifying.

    There is a book (I cant remember the name) they took a group of top race drivers and told them they were changing the suspension settings, all of the drivers reported handling improvements and degradation, the truth was they had changed nothing.

  23. #373
    Grand Master Foxy100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Are you sure it wasn't the placebo effect, dampers that change that much with one click would be terrifying.

    There is a book (I cant remember the name) they took a group of top race drivers and told them they were changing the suspension settings, all of the drivers reported handling improvements and degradation, the truth was they had changed nothing.
    Nope, I have a bad back at the moment, that one click all round was enough to stop it crashing over every dip and bump in the road. I tried softening off the rear by a click to help after the rear subframe brace was removed/LSD was fitted but that made the overall handling worse, so I stiffened it back a click and then stiffened it an extra one, which felt much better. Adding a click all round made it just about bearable but you do try to take off out of your seat on some of the bumps taken at speed. That's how I left it when I set off for Dorset on Saturday, and stopping outside Salisbury took a click back off all round to make it that little bit more comfortable while still allowing it to go round corners and roundabouts like it's on rails. Like Petrus, I'd been fiddling around with the damper settings for ages and having found a setup I liked the LSD/brace change messed it up (slightly). When I went to Swansea and back a couple of weeks ago I took two clicks off all round and it cruised beautifully. Isn't that the point of adjustable dampers?
    You can live in your car but you can't drive your house.

  24. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Foxy100 View Post
    Nope, I have a bad back at the moment, that one click all round was enough to stop it crashing over every dip and bump in the road. I tried softening off the rear by a click to help after the rear subframe brace was removed/LSD was fitted but that made the overall handling worse, so I stiffened it back a click and then stiffened it an extra one, which felt much better. Adding a click all round made it just about bearable but you do try to take off out of your seat on some of the bumps taken at speed. That's how I left it when I set off for Dorset on Saturday, and stopping outside Salisbury took a click back off all round to make it that little bit more comfortable while still allowing it to go round corners and roundabouts like it's on rails. Like Petrus, I'd been fiddling around with the damper settings for ages and having found a setup I liked the LSD/brace change messed it up (slightly). When I went to Swansea and back a couple of weeks ago I took two clicks off all round and it cruised beautifully. Isn't that the point of adjustable dampers?

    A single adjuster is always going to be a compromise, three ways have low speed and high speed bump so the shock behaves correctly depending on what you hit, I have black art design pro series on the Renault, you can feel them working, very similar to the Ohlins we used on the race car but about £3000 less. if you get the suspension frequency correct (3hz I think) the car becomes compliant

    http://www.blackartdesigns.com/suspension-products

    Just found this, it is worth a read, it shows that you can work out most of your suspension settings with a calculator before ever touching the car. https://www.drtuned.com/tech-ramblin...on-frequencies

  25. #375
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    Problem with in reality rather mundane sports cars like the MR and MX is that there is very little one can do to change the geometry unlike with p.e. a Lotus Elise.

    The MR has the McPherson strut that can be seen as an infinitely long upper arm and changing the angle does hardly anything to alter the roll centre.
    The lower arm is a pressed steel strut and the only possible change is a longer/shorter ball joint. At the back even thát is not an option, leaving one without any to try restore factory spec roll center hight.
    The factory geometry is without a doubt the best compromise for up to fast road use and lowering the car strays away from that.
    Adjustable coil overs are only a better quality McPherson strut. Not more not less and given the above there is very little one should do concerning the ride height, leaving adjusting the damping to the spring rate for a particular use.

    Back to my higher car I am leaning to modding the OEM springs to restore the factory spec. ride height as that is after all the optimum compromise, perhaps 5 mm lower at the front. IF it is possible that is.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  26. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    A single adjuster is always going to be a compromise, three ways have low speed and high speed bump so the shock behaves correctly depending on what you hit, I have black art design pro series on the Renault, you can feel them working, very similar to the Ohlins we used on the race car but about £3000 less. if you get the suspension frequency correct (3hz I think) the car becomes compliant

    http://www.blackartdesigns.com/suspension-products

    Just found this, it is worth a read, it shows that you can work out most of your suspension settings with a calculator before ever touching the car. https://www.drtuned.com/tech-ramblin...on-frequencies
    My dampers work significantly better than the standard shocks but cost £600, which is about a third of what I paid for the car. They're not perfect but they don't need to be.
    You can live in your car but you can't drive your house.

  27. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    Problem with in reality rather mundane sports cars like the MR and MX is that there is very little one can do to change the geometry unlike with p.e. a Lotus Elise.

    The MR has the McPherson strut that can be seen as an infinitely long upper arm and changing the angle does hardly anything to alter the roll centre.
    The lower arm is a pressed steel strut and the only possible change is a longer/shorter ball joint. At the back even thát is not an option, leaving one without any to try restore factory spec roll center hight.
    The factory geometry is without a doubt the best compromise for up to fast road use and lowering the car strays away from that.
    Adjustable coil overs are only a better quality McPherson strut. Not more not less and given the above there is very little one should do concerning the ride height, leaving adjusting the damping to the spring rate for a particular use.

    Back to my higher car I am leaning to modding the OEM springs to restore the factory spec. ride height as that is after all the optimum compromise, perhaps 5 mm lower at the front. IF it is possible that is.

    Can't you get adjustable spring platforms for your car, then play with caster and camber, then cut the springs down? I think cars look good with the little rake but in reality its just for looks.


    Interesting, these shocks come with them https://mr2-ben.co.uk/products/664 makes me think someone has thought this through.
    Last edited by adrianw; 20th May 2019 at 15:22.

  28. #378
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    Thanks for looking Adrian.
    If not original or original replacement, I would need a homologated set.
    As for the camber adjustment, I have already sorted that with camber bolts.

    As I wrote, the height adjustment is a theoretical thing only because it affects the roll center and best left very close to OEM. The only thing available for that is a higher bottom bracket ball joint from HardRace.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  29. #379
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    There is a baffling lack of concrete; factual ´geometry´, info on the suspension upgrades availeble. The absense of specifications of lowering springs is symptomatic (Tein being the exception).
    Not even the TRD Sportivo kit offeres conncrete info.
    Neither is there much (understatement) on the TRD Sportivo spacers for the subframe which is part of the kit.
    Been measuring a bit under the car and the effect is a definite lowering of the roll center. Working form 20 mm lowered springs (as per TRD kit) the effect is in the order of 30 mm!!!

    See a schematic and now imagine lowering the chassis side of the bottom strut




    Note: I have chosen thís illustration as it visualises the effect BUT it is also an example of the negative effect of lowering a car too much: The distance between COM and RC has increased so this car will roll MÓRE despite lowering.
    As such illustrating twó things ;)
    See; ´overthinking´ is not all bad ;D




    Meanwhile have sourced OEM seat mounts. Leaves the matter of paying the seller in GBP as my paypal has been hacked.

    Also sourced a breast brace. This is reputed to be even more effective on the MR2 than the front strut brace.

    Last edited by Huertecilla; 21st May 2019 at 17:12.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  30. #380
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    subframe spacers

    Still wondering about the Sportivo ´dog bones´,


    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  31. #381
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    As I observed earlier, it is both baffling and disgusting how few factual info is available from manufacturers/vendors of aftermarket ´go faster´ stuff.
    Even such a basis simple piece of info as spring values is the exception rather than the rule yet the ones I can find differ from 1,5 to 5 kg/mm. at the front per example. Both extremes for 30mm lowering springs, so if you would not dig deeper you could be in for a surprise either way.
    Then there are 20mm to 45mm lowering ones, alas without strength info so Jove knows what you will end up with BUT... great colours!!!
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  32. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by Huertecilla View Post
    As I observed earlier, it is both baffling and disgusting how few factual info is available from manufacturers/vendors of aftermarket ´go faster´ stuff.
    Even such a basis simple piece of info as spring values is the exception rather than the rule yet the ones I can find differ from 1,5 to 5 kg/mm. at the front per example. Both extremes for 30mm lowering springs, so if you would not dig deeper you could be in for a surprise either way.
    Then there are 20mm to 45mm lowering ones, alas without strength info so Jove knows what you will end up with BUT... great colours!!!
    I am always amazed when people lower their car and don't understand the effect, BAD always test the standard springs prior to specifying others, is there anyone near you with a tester on suspension dyno?

  33. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    I am always amazed when people lower their car and don't understand the effect, BAD always test the standard springs prior to specifying others, is there anyone near you with a tester on suspension dyno?
    There you have another thing which amazes me; nobody seems to have the foggiest how strong the standard ones are. So... HOW ON EARTH do you know whát you are doing with different ones??
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

  34. #384
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    Quite frankly any cabrio or form of transport that takes you away

  35. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by mart broad View Post
    Quite frankly any cabrio or form of transport that takes you away
    You´re missing the crux; it is not about the transport aspect but the amount of the added value of fun.


    Meanwhile unearthed the spring rate of the standard springies. Hard to believe that it is a basically unknown to the myriad of modifying owners.
    When the going gets tough, the DAF gets going.

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