Freemasonry: Any good?

[ralphy]

On the "higher being" discussion - l remarked that l am a dyed in the wool atheist and so wouldn't be welcome - l didn't try to be smug or clever regarding this subject, as so many do - l just pointed it out over a pint.

His response was that he too is an atheist (as l well knew), that many other masons are atheists and that, given his disregard for religion, he didn't really think it much of a crime to just pretend he had faith - in this case his definition of a "higher being" was his mother! He reasons, and l agree, that given there is no god, it's impossible to lie to a god

Did your friend not have to swear on the Bible as part of his joining? I was under the impression that you had to have a God in order to be a Freemason.

R

[Umbongo]

Did your friend not have to swear on the Bible as part of his joining? I was under the impression that you had to have a God in order to be a Freemason.

R

Having a god and swearing on the bible are two separate things. The former indicates having a faith, the latter indicates one can recite a paragraph with ones hand on a book.

I think people with religious beliefs get worked up about such things a lot less than those who take them with a large pinch of salt.
The one time l swore on a bible l regarded it more as an act of symbolism than anything else - it would have been a waste of my time and energy to try to score points for my "side".

On a personal note, the act of swearing on a bible to become a mason, or to join any club, is so absurd that if l had my good enough reason to join said club ld go along with it - its not like it means anything.

[Umbongo]

One of my friends introduced me to Freemasonry and his 'higher being' was the spurs manager being a Tottenham fan!

And its as easy as that.

[mart broad]

When i joined Freemasonary i took my oath on the Old Testament and with my head covered not kneeling ( i was a practising Jew back then) i have initiated Masons both kneeling , head covered and in one instance on the Koran as the years have passed so has my “ Faith” but in truth why start out with a lie? i could not and would not become a Freemason today as an Atheist.

[TheFlyingBanana]

You don't swear on the bible to be initiated. I certainly didn't and wasn't asked to.

[mart broad]

You don't swear on the bible to be initiated. I certainly didn't and wasn't asked to.

So you did not seal with your lips on the VSL on which your right hand was placed your obligation when you were initiated?

From UGLE
"What is Freemasonry’s relationship with religion?
All Freemasons are expected to have a religious belief, but Freemasonry does not seek to replace a Mason’s religion or provide a substitute for it. It deals in a man’s relationship with his fellow man not in a man’s relationship with his God."

[ralphy]

You don't swear on the bible to be initiated. I certainly didn't and wasn't asked to.

A Google search shows up conflicting information on the subject of Freemasons and bibles, but there does seem a consensus that some book of religion is a requirement for candidates and that being an atheist is a bar.

R

[Maysie]

No, of course not.
But I've lost count of the ambulances, medi-helecopters, life boats, DaVinci machines and God knows what else we've supplied..no strings attached....only to be greeted by mistrust and cynicism...

I can understand that, but the part I do not understand is why you think that someone who has had a heart attack would send away an ambulance when they need it, just because it was in some way financially assisted by the FM's charitable donation.

The mistrust and cynicism surrounding the FM's has been well discussed and debated on this thread already and people are entitled to those views. The FM's generous charitable giving is also well known.

Large sums of charitable funding are also regularly donated by numerous commercial organisations, but we do not all have to agree with the trading ethics of those businesses to realise and appreciate a charitable donation for what it is.

[Umbongo]

You don't swear on the bible to be initiated. I certainly didn't and wasn't asked to.

Interesting.
What did you do instead?

[TheFlyingBanana]

So you did not seal with your lips on the VSL on which your right hand was placed your obligation when you were initiated?

Yes, but I wasn’t aware that was the bible. If it was I still have no problems with it, not because I am religious or atheist, but because the basic tenets of the major religions are common sense and fine with me.

I think it isn’t necessary to get hung up on this point.

Anyhow, I’ve only been in a year so by no means well versed in all the detail!

[mart broad]

Certainly not hung up on it but i really do think that it is worth pointing out to any prospective candidate to Freemasonry that that the belief in a “ supreme being” is required and that an oath will be taken on a Religious book be it a Bible the Koran or whatever Sihks or Hindus use.

[Umbongo]

Certainly not hung up on it but i really do think that it is worth pointing out to any prospective candidate to Freemasonry that that the belief in a “ supreme being” is required and that an oath will be taken on a Religious book be it a Bible the Koran or whatever Sihks or Hindus use.

From what I've read on this thread, heard from my friend and the internet reading that it has led me to, it would seem that, at bottom level certainly, the rules of freemasonry have become diluted enough for it not to really matter if you believe in "God" the tooth fairy or indeed just oneself...

...this dilution appears to be, in no small part, in order to keep the organisation from dying off and may well continue further in the future.

Safe to say that the masons have had varying levels of power, influence and, yes - secrecy - over the years.

[mart broad]

From what I've read on this thread, heard from my friend and the internet reading that it has led me to, it would seem that, at bottom level certainly, the rules of freemasonry have become diluted enough for it not to really matter if you believe in "God" the tooth fairy or indeed just oneself...

...this dilution appears to be, in no small part, in order to keep the organisation from dying off and may well continue further in the future.

Safe to say that the reasons have had varying levels of power, influence and, yes - secrecy - over the years.

Again i quote from United Grand Lodge of England
Anyone interested or maybe seeking some answers just go to the website there is also a contact form where you can get info and if you want arrange a local meet with a Lodge member for a face to face.
As to your “God” i do not think it is yet possible to take your oath on a Rolex catalogue


From UGLE
"What is Freemasonry’s relationship with religion?
All Freemasons are expected to have a religious belief, but Freemasonry does not seek to replace a Mason’s religion or provide a substitute for it. It deals in a man’s relationship with his fellow man not in a man’s relationship with his God."

[Umbongo]

Unless somebody comes along and informs me that religion plays a large part in Masonic discussion, lm thinking that, in its current state, the freemasons' insistence on one having a religion is irrelevant and rather invites people to sidestep.

[seikopath]

As to your “God” i do not think it is yet possible to take your oath on a Rolex catalogue

."

That will exclude alot of the current readership

[seikopath]

Yes, but I wasn’t aware that was the bible. If it was I still have no problems with it, not because I am religious or atheist, but because the basic tenets of the major religions are common sense and fine with me.

I think it isn’t necessary to get hung up on this point.

Anyhow, I’ve only been in a year so by no means well versed in all the detail!

So you swore on a book and don't know what it was? That's worse than getting married after two weeks in benidorm

[Umbongo]

So you swore on a book and don't know what it was? That's worse than getting married after two weeks in benidorm

Haha! That's kind of what l thought!

[adg31]

From what I've read on this thread, heard from my friend and the internet reading that it has led me to, it would seem that, at bottom level certainly, the rules of freemasonry have become diluted enough for it not to really matter if you believe in "God" the tooth fairy or indeed just oneself...

...this dilution appears to be, in no small part, in order to keep the organisation from dying off and may well continue further in the future.

Safe to say that the masons have had varying levels of power, influence and, yes - secrecy - over the years.

I'm not sure how you feel that the rules of Freemasonry have been diluted?
In my experience most Lodges will say that they prefer quality to quantity. This view has been arrived at on the experience that a straightforward dash for growth almost always ends in tears as the new Brethren don't wish to contribute to the activities of the Lodge and often leave shortly after joining which can create a whole raft of new problems.
Freemasonry, like so much in life, gives you an opportunity to grow. However, this is on the basis of getting out what you put in in terms of time and effort. If you pull in numbers by not saying how much is involved all you will achieve is a rapid turnover of members.
For this reason, I'm not sure that standards are being diluted.


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[Thewatchbloke]

So you swore on a book and don't know what it was? That's worse than getting married after two weeks in benidorm

He was certain he knew what it wasn’t.

[adg31]

He was certain he knew what it wasn’t.

In fairness to the poster he has said that he was only initiated a year ago. Most Freemasons will say that their Initiation passed in a blur so I can see how how they may not have been certain of everything that went on in any detail.
Freemasonry is a journey and they are still at the start of that journey; I for one wish them the very best of luck :)


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[Umbongo]

I'm not sure how you feel that the rules of Freemasonry have been diluted?
In my experience most Lodges will say that they prefer quality to quantity. This view has been arrived at on the experience that a straightforward dash for growth almost always ends in tears as the new Brethren don't wish to contribute to the activities of the Lodge and often leave shortly after joining which can create a whole raft of new problems.
Freemasonry, like so much in life, gives you an opportunity to grow. However, this is on the basis of getting out what you put in in terms of time and effort. If you pull in numbers by not saying how much is involved all you will achieve is a rapid turnover of members.
For this reason, I'm not sure that standards are being diluted.


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I never said standards. I said rules.

Do you disagree that, with regards to acceptable religious beliefs, the criteria of the freemasons has changed somewhat over the years?

[Umbongo]

Most Freemasons will say that their Initiation passed in a blur so I can see how how they may not have been certain of everything that went on in any detail.

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So, really, it doesn't matter if it was the bible or this year's rolex catalogue. It was all a blur anyway.
One may as well be atheist.
Not knowing exactly what l was doing would concern me though. I like to think lm aware of my surroundings.

[mart broad]

So, really, it doesn't matter if it was the bible or this year's rolex catalogue. It was all a blur anyway.
One may as well be atheist.
Not knowing exactly what l was doing would concern me though. I like to think lm aware of my surroundings.

Yet again i post the official line from Grand Lodge who oversee all Freemasonary Worldwide

“From UGLE
"What is Freemasonry’s relationship with religion?
All Freemasons are expected to have a religious belief, but Freemasonry does not seek to replace a Mason’s religion or provide a substitute for it. It deals in a man’s relationship with his fellow man not in a man’s relationship with his God.”

Any candidate for Freemasonary is interviewed prior to his initiation and the ground rules are set out also after a year in the Craft aren’t you curious as to what that book in front of the Worshipful Master is you know the one on which you sealed your oath with your lips?

[adg31]

I never said standards. I said rules.

Do you disagree that, with regards to acceptable religious beliefs, the criteria of the freemasons has changed somewhat over the years?

Either way my answer is the same: No. Whenever I've taken part in interviewing potential candidates to Freemasonry the question about belief in a Supreme Being / God has always been raised by someone.
Who knows, maybe I've just been lucky in the Lodges I've had the privilege to be a member of.


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[adg31]

So, really, it doesn't matter if it was the bible or this year's rolex catalogue. It was all a blur anyway.
One may as well be atheist.
Not knowing exactly what l was doing would concern me though. I like to think lm aware of my surroundings.

It isn't up to the candidate to provide the Bible or check that it isn't the latest Rolex catalogue :)
In the ceremony it is generally referenced as the Volume of the Sacred Law which can cause some confusion to the Initiate who generally will need to wait a few months to see another Initiation or even longer to receive their own Ritual Book.


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[adg31]

Unless somebody comes along and informs me that religion plays a large part in Masonic discussion, lm thinking that, in its current state, the freemasons' insistence on one having a religion is irrelevant and rather invites people to sidestep.

Although expressly not a religion and discouraging of discussing religion in Lodge, Freemasonry itself revolves around a belief in a Supreme Being or Great Architect of the Universe.
If there is no belief in such a figure I agree that it does rather make it a pointless exercise - rather like an atheist going to church to worship. But stranger things have been known!


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[Umbongo]

You know what? I think I may just join and report back with my findings.

My interest is piqued!

Ive managed to take it in turns with my wife (also atheist) to attend church every Sunday and sit through the nonsense to get my two children into a church school (sadly it has a better educational standard than my other options) so l think blagging the "belief in a higher faith" bit should be a piece of cake.

Hopefully the experience will be interesting - and, over a period of time, informative to those interested.

[TheFlyingBanana]

It isn't up to the candidate to provide the Bible or check that it isn't the latest Rolex catalogue :)
In the ceremony it is generally referenced as the Volume of the Sacred Law which can cause some confusion to the Initiate who generally will need to wait a few months to see another Initiation or even longer to receive their own Ritual Book.


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Exactly this as above.

As far as I was aware, I was amongst friends and as someone who has built his life and career on being in charge and in control I actually really enjoyed putting my trust 100% in others. Whether it was the bible or a Mr Man book I genuinely don’t care - my intentions were sincere.

The initiation really was a blur, but a very enjoyable one. Again, I am pretty much a skeptic by nature, and perhaps a part of me was expecting it all to be a bit lame and silly.

Grown men and daft rituals and all that.

It really wasn’t, and the modest amount of lines you have to learn (and I surprised myself by enjoying doing this too) actually do mean something. They are very powerful, and perhaps this is why The Craft has endured.

[Umbongo]

Although expressly not a religion and discouraging of discussing religion in Lodge, Freemasonry itself revolves around a belief in a Supreme Being or Great Architect of the Universe.
If there is no belief in such a figure I agree that it does rather make it a pointless exercise - rather like an atheist going to church to worship. But stranger things have been known!


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Can l ask in what way freemasonry revolves around a belief in a supreme being or great architect?

What will l be asked/required to do that will test/require such faith?

Edit:- also, lm not sure how its like an atheist going to church to worship - surely you said that the freemasons wasn't a place of worship. How will not believing in a higher force affect my enjoyment of this social club?
My friend has never mentioned his atheism being a problem.
I really need to see this from the inside!

[adg31]

Can l ask in what way freemasonry revolves around a belief in a supreme being or great architect?

What will l be asked/required to do that will test/require such faith?

Freemasonry is based in part around the building of King Solomon's Temple and the Masons who worked on the project - much of which is covered in the Old Testament (Kings).
This provides a series of allegorical stories that show how we can all aspire to be better men and work in harmony with others.
As such, it does reference scripture - but Freemasonry expressly not being a religion refers instead to a Great Architect of the Universe (GAOTU as opposed to SWMBO!) which is why you are asked if you follow a faith or believe in a God rather than which one specifically. In this way Freemasonry is open to followers of any religion - and I have met Brethren of many different faiths.
As has been covered previously, the Initiation requires the Candidate to confirm their joining. In the UK this is typically done on the VSL / Bible but I believe can vary if required in much the same way as you place your hand on the Bible and swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth in a Court of Law.
The rest of it you'll find out if you decide to join - but I hope this helps explain the reason :)


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[Seamaster73]

All the harping on about charitable donations strikes me as overcompensating for something else.

[adg31]

All the harping on about charitable donations strikes me as overcompensating for something else.

Uh, okay - thanks for that.


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[seikopath]

He was certain he knew what it wasn’t.

Im lost Duncan :shrug:

[mart broad]

You know what as a Freemason of over 36 yrs and wearing “ dark blue” i would rather the Craft withered and died than be watered down as it is now with initiates going through the degrees in three meetings having no sense of history , belonging or purpose of trying to get them to come to LoI read , learn and understand ritual and progress in the offices.
If all one wants is a “ club” then join a pub quiz/ darts team etc please do not dilute something that i really do give a FF about.
As to the charity aspect it is a part of what we are about but only a part if all you want to do is give a few bob or quid there are plenty of tins,websites and charities looking for your hard earned no need to join a lodge or indeed anything else.

[Kingstepper]

You know what as a Freemason of over 36 yrs and wearing “ dark blue” i would rather the Craft withered and died than be watered down as it is now with initiates going through the degrees in three meetings having no sense of history , belonging or purpose of trying to get them to come to LoI read , learn and understand ritual and progress in the offices.
If all one wants is a “ club” then join a pub quiz/ darts team etc please do not dilute something that i really do give a FF about.

Hopefully you make your feelings known at the gatherings.

[mart broad]

Hopefully you make your feelings known at the gatherings.

I do not gather maybe hippies or some such do but i attend Lodge meetings and yes i do air my opinions and have refused to take part in degrees where i have felt the candidate is not ready.

[Kingstepper]

I do not gather maybe hippies or some such do but i attend Lodge meetings and yes i do air my opinions and have refused to take part in degrees where i have felt the candidate is not ready.

I thought you'd have an arcane/unusual word for 'meeting'.

[snowman]

I joined my local BSAC dive club a few years ago.

We're a mixed bunch, some early 20s, more in the their 60s, but we're bucking the trend by getting younger as a club!

It can get a bit 'political' sometimes, with fallings outs and people wanting or not wanting things done certain ways, but mostly we get along and have a good time.

We do dress in bizarre costumes and have our rituals, such as the 'buddy check'.

My point is that most clubs are quite similar and what the Freemasons here are saying is that they're pretty much the same as any other.

I've no personal experience, but it doesn't sound that sinister.

That said, there was someone senior in the Masons interviewed not so long ago on the radio, bemoaning the fact that Freemasons are perceived by many as a 'secret society'.

When challenged about that he said he couldn't reveal anything about their ceremonies because they were 'secret'!

He didn't really do his cause too many favours there, I thought!

M

[mart broad]

I thought you'd have an arcane/unusual word for 'meeting'.

Meaning what? Freemasons go to Lodge meetings not gatherings,assemblies ,get togethers or touchy-feely events.
Your point is?

[TheFlyingBanana]

Meaning what? Freemasons go to Lodge meetings not fathering#,assemblies ,get togethers or touchy-feely events.
Your point is?

“fathering”? Nobody mentioned there were those kinds of ceremonies to look forward to...

[mart broad]

“fathering”? I had no idea there were those kinds of ceremonies to come...

Since edited OK next meeting check out the book in front of the WM

[TheFlyingBanana]

Since edited OK next meeting check out the book in front of the WM

I don’t doubt you Mart.

My lodge is doing very well - around a hundred members and recruiting strongly in the 30-40’s age range.

It’s very friendly, with lots of laughter, brilliant camaraderie, and does lots of good things for the community. It also takes the ceremonies very seriously.

The older brothers are very keen for the Lodge to continue to thrive going forward and not become stale and stuffy with numbers dwindling away. Surely a good thing?

[mart broad]

I don’t doubt you Mart.

My lodge is doing very well - around a hundred members and recruiting strongly in the 30-40’s age range.

It’s very friendly, with lots of laughter, brilliant camaraderie, and does lots of good things for the community. It also takes the ceremonies very seriously.

The older brothers are very keen for the Lodge to continue to thrive going forward and not become stale and stuffy with numbers dwindling away. Surely a good thing?

Good to hear and power to you with those sort of numbers hopefully progression will be steady and one will be able to fully understand the degrees and the meaning thereof always should be open to new ideas but not watering down in order to attract membership which eventually just implodes.
I wish you well on what could be a fullfilingy journey.

[Groundrush]

Basically any man who is over 21 (18 in some cases) years old and believes in a God can be a Freemason.
There are no barriers arising from ethnicity, political views, economic standing or religion.

It does make me wonder though, how is this apparent religion and gender based discrimination not in contravention of the Equality Act (2010)?

[vulcangascompany]

It does make me wonder though, how is this apparent religion and gender based discrimination not in contravention of the Equality Act (2010)?

Indeed does any FM feel uncomfortable that females are barred from joining...In the 21st C I personally can't imagine wanting to join a society to which entry is not allowed to 50% of society..I presume as having joined and accepted the T&C you accept this situation? I'd like to hear the FM take on this, thanks.

[hops]

It does make me wonder though, how is this apparent religion and gender based discrimination not in contravention of the Equality Act (2010)?

But I suspect the fact it is a private organisation probably plays a part, also there are women’s orders which are separate from the male ones in the same way there are girl guides & Boy Scouts. There again I could be completely wrong.

[Kingstepper]

But I suspect the fact it is a private organisation probably plays a part, also there are women’s orders which are separate from the male ones in the same way there are girl guides & Boy Scouts. There again I could be completely wrong.

There's not Boy Scouts nowadays, just Scouts. Open to girls and boys.

UK anyway.

[TheFlyingBanana]

Indeed does any FM feel uncomfortable that females are barred from joining...In the 21st C I personally can't imagine wanting to join a society to which entry is not allowed to 50% of society..I presume as having joined and accepted the T&C you accept this situation? I'd like to hear the FM take on this, thanks.

Well, to be fair, try joining the WI... or the National Womens Register, or getting your son in to the Girl Guides, or the Brownies...

And there are female Freemasons anyhow - there are some womens lodges where men can't be a member.

I'm 100% for equality, but equality doesn't always have to mean "the same".

[vulcangascompany]

Well, to be fair, try joining the WI... or the National Womens Register, or getting your son in to the Girl Guides, or the Brownies...

And there are female Freemasons anyhow - there are some womens lodges where men can't be a member.

I'm 100% for equality, but equality doesn't always have to mean "the same".

All good points, but equality does seem to be mentioned to be at the core of Freemasonry? Re earlier discussions on class, race, religion...

[Tifa]

All the harping on about charitable donations strikes me as overcompensating for something else.

FFS....If you didn't have such a large post count, I'd have assumed you were a troll.