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Thread: Freemasonry: Any good?

  1. #201
    Master -Ally-'s Avatar
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    Archaic.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by -Ally- View Post
    Archaic.
    Antagonistic.

  3. #203

    Freemasonry: Any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by vulcangascompany View Post
    Indeed does any FM feel uncomfortable that females are barred from joining...In the 21st C I personally can't imagine wanting to join a society to which entry is not allowed to 50% of society..I presume as having joined and accepted the T&C you accept this situation? I'd like to hear the FM take on this, thanks.
    I'm perfectly happy with the present situation thank you.
    Similarly I am happy to confirm that I do not feel discriminated against by my inability to join The Order of Women Freemasons, The Inner Wheel or Women's Institute or indeed any of the other great women only organisations that exist today.
    Most Freemasons I know are very grateful to their partners for allowing them the time to spend on their interest which is why Ladies Nights, held as a way to say thank you for their tolerance, are generally so well attended. Similarly, most Lodges take care of widows with regular lunches and gifts at Christmas time after their partners have died so they are very much a part of the wider Masonic family.


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    Last edited by adg31; Yesterday at 00:11.

  4. #204

    Freemasonry: Any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Groundrush View Post
    It does make me wonder though, how is this apparent religion and gender based discrimination not in contravention of the Equality Act (2010)?
    I'm not a lawyer and I can't see where the religious discrimination you reference would come from as the requirement is only for a prospective Freemason to have a religious belief. This may be any religious belief provided it included a belief in a Supreme Being and was compatible with the three Grand Principles of Freemasonry: brotherly love, relief of those in distress and truth.
    However, when it comes to gender, my understanding of the 2010 Equality Act is that it does actually recognise the possibile benefits of having same sex organisations where the main purpose of the club is to bring together people who share a particular characteristic or interest, which in this case would be Freemasonry, so it would be within the scope of the legislation.
    However it is also made clear they may not then discriminate on other grounds such as race, religion, disability or sexual orientation.
    So whilst you can have a same sex organisation you would not then be able to discriminate against a member of that sex; for example on the basis of their homosexuality or disability.
    Sorry for the rather long winded answer but your question was interesting and did get me thinking!


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    Last edited by adg31; Yesterday at 07:55.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by adg31 View Post
    I'm not a lawyer and I can't see where the religious discrimination you reference would come from as the requirement is only for a prospective Freemason to have a religious belief.
    I'm not a lawyer either but as I understand it The Equality Act 2010 says you must not be discriminated against because you are (or are not) of a particular religion or you hold (or do not hold) a particular philosophical belief. The act also protects people with no religion if they are discriminated against because of their beliefs (or lack thereof).

    Quote Originally Posted by adg31 View Post
    However, when it comes to gender, my understanding of the 2010 Equality Act is that it does actually recognise the possibile benefits of having same sex organisations where the main purpose of the club is to bring together people who share a particular characteristic or interest, which in this case would be Freemasonry, so it would be within the scope of the legislation.
    I'm not sure about this either. The act does allow for some gender based discrimination but only when essential for certain jobs or for positive action to promote an under represented gender.

    Discrimination due to either category looks dubious to me but I guess we won't know for sure unless it is tested in court.
    Last edited by Groundrush; Yesterday at 02:05.

  6. #206

    Freemasonry: Any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Groundrush View Post
    I'm not a lawyer either but as I understand it The Equality Act 2010 says you must not be discriminated against because you are (or are not) of a particular religion or you hold (or do not hold) a particular philosophical belief. The act also protects people with no religion if they are discriminated against because of their beliefs (or lack thereof).

    I'm not sure about this either. The act does allow for some gender based discrimination but only when essential for certain jobs or for positive action to promote an under represented gender.

    Discrimination due to either category looks dubious to me but I guess we won't know for sure unless it is tested in court.
    The legislation appears to be quite specific about the fact that you can have, for instance, a single sex membership within a club or organisation - so long as you don't then discriminate against anyone within that membership on the basis of say colour, disability or sexual orientation.
    Similarly, if you have a club or organisation of mixed male and female membership you can't then say, for example, that women get their drinks at half price but men have to pay double; both must be treated equally in all aspects.
    If you want to test it in Court I would be very interested to see the outcome - but would guess that most organisations which apply specific membership criteria in some way will have looked carefully into this with legal minds far better than mine

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    Last edited by adg31; Yesterday at 08:07.

  7. #207
    So it's legal to discriminate provided you are clear about how you discriminate and follow that policy completely. So a male theist only club is legal provided you only allow male theists in. I wonder what would happen if a member is subsequently found not to be either male or a theist. Presumably they would have to be ejected or it would be a breach of the Equality Act to then not allow other non-male and/or atheists in. Or maybe not. I dunno. Either way, I wouldn't join a club that is openly discriminatory regardless of legality.

  8. #208

    Freemasonry: Any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Groundrush View Post
    So it's legal to discriminate provided you are clear about how you discriminate and follow that policy completely. So a male theist only club is legal provided you only allow male theists in. I wonder what would happen if a member is subsequently found not to be either male or a theist. Presumably they would have to be ejected or it would be a breach of the Equality Act to then not allow other non-male and/or atheists in. Or maybe not. I dunno. Either way, I wouldn't join a club that is openly discriminatory regardless of legality.
    I fear that we are now in danger of overthinking the implications of this!
    Freemasonry is certainly not the only body where membership is restricted on the basis of gender or some other attribute so I wouldn't get too hung up about it. As I've said previously, my inability to join the WI on the basis of my being a man does not upset me in any way or ruin my enjoyment of life - much as I respect and admire what they do.
    Choosing not to join any organisation is entirely your prerogative which I respect - but I have enjoyed our discussion


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    Last edited by adg31; Yesterday at 11:54.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Groundrush View Post
    Discrimination due to either category looks dubious to me but I guess we won't know for sure unless it is tested in court.
    Where, of course, the judge would be a member of the freemasons...😉😈

  10. #210
    Master mart broad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umbongo View Post
    Where, of course, the judge would be a member of the freemasons...
    Of course but maybe you and groundrush could also investigate this mob while your at it

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_St_Columba

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