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Thread: Freemasonry: Any good?

  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Templogin View Post
    Freemasons are a bit like council tenants, you only notice the bad ones.
    Sad but true of so many things in life!



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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templogin View Post
    .

    Freemasons are a bit like council tenants, you only notice the bad ones.
    Quote Originally Posted by adg31 View Post
    Sad but true of so many things in life!
    Very true,,
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

  3. #103

    Freemasonry: Any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by vulcangascompany View Post
    Here is the fact check from Channel 4: www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/do-the-freemasons-claims-stack-up

    Can you confirm then that Channel 4 claims re: FM paying for private healthcare and private education from charity funds are inaccurate / wrong? Thanks
    "This includes paying private school fees for the children of masons, when life-changing circumstances prevent them from meeting the costs themselves. They also pay for “specialist tuition, and a host of extracurricular activities”.
    I think that the key word in this section is 'includes'.
    Yes it includes private school fees for some particular cases but that does not mean that the fund exclusively spends it's resources on sending the children of Freemasons to Eton or Harrow.
    I provided the link to the C4 site to give a balanced answer to a question. I also provided the link to the MBF website and Charities Commission sites which provide more details about help given via the Masonic Charities and which I hope you looked at.
    The key word in my post is 'balance'; am I a Freemason - yes, is Freemasonry perfect - no.
    I agree that Freemasonry is not for everyone as we are all individuals but my hope is that by being honest and open others will also approach the subject with balance and not focus on any one specific word or aspect to judge the whole.


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    Last edited by adg31; 12th July 2018 at 10:17.

  4. #104
    Thanks for the reply, yes i get your point about balance and it probably doesn’t happen too often. But it sends out a message that FM’s are an elite, look after their own and out of touch, something that many who are members on this forum argue is in the past.

    I still cannot see how anyone could defend paying for private education (a luxury) as charity but then i’m obviously not from a class that would be welcome as a FM. Its been an education this thread!

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by vulcangascompany View Post
    ....... but then i’m obviously not from a class that would be welcome as a FM. Its been an education this thread!
    I am not sure that is the case, nowadays at least. Most of the FM's I have met over the past few years have been very 'ordinary' people, certainly not all from the private school education territory anyway.

    I think it may have changed over the years, as my initial (older) impression was always that the FM's was a club for 'business leaders'.

  6. #106

    Freemasonry: Any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by vulcangascompany View Post
    Thanks for the reply, yes i get your point about balance and it probably doesn’t happen too often. But it sends out a message that FM’s are an elite, look after their own and out of touch, something that many who are members on this forum argue is in the past.

    I still cannot see how anyone could defend paying for private education (a luxury) as charity but then i’m obviously not from a class that would be welcome as a FM. Its been an education this thread!
    I agree that the use of private education does sound elitist as it brings to mind Eton, Harrow and a world of privilege - which is unfortunate given the spread of it's membership today. However, I don't know the circumstances of those involved so can't comment on it's appropriateness. For what it's worth, I would say that the scope of private education can cover everything from special needs through to academies for the gifted.
    After my grandfather died on active service in 1941 his widow was asked if she wanted my dad to go to a private school but she declined their offer and he went to the local school - and never became a Freemason.
    One of the things I like most about Freemasonry is the diverse range of people you get to meet on an equal footing. These range from Lords through to the unemployed and you can find Lodges for specialist interests such as bikers and military through to sports and travelling showmen - all united under one unique organisation.
    So, if you were interested I'm fairly sure that your social background or occupation would have no impact upon your ability to join.


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    Last edited by adg31; 12th July 2018 at 11:15.

  7. #107
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    I echo the above sentiments, all of the members of my lodge are middle or working class. There are none that have kids at private school.


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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by vulcangascompany View Post
    Here is the fact check from Channel 4: www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/do-the-freemasons-claims-stack-up

    Can you confirm then that Channel 4 claims re: FM paying for private healthcare and private education from charity funds are inaccurate / wrong? Thanks
    That does not detract from the fact that millions are given to registered charities (read from 54 - 66 of the financial report). So what if the Masonic Charities support their own membership? It is not public money and is only spent in times of hardship. I know because I am the Lodge Almoner at my Lodge and I am the first in line to be asked for any spending for Masons at our Lodge, and I'm a Yorkshire man
    Ever visited York Minster and enjoyed the stained glass windows? Who paid for the restoration? all the Lodges of York & North East Ridings.

    Monies to registered Charities...

    Air Ambulance £992K
    Disaster Relief £70K
    Hospices £600K
    Medical Research £998K (£300K recently to the Royal College of Surgeons)
    Financial Hardship £14K
    Health & Disability £1,308,895
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    & Disadvantaged £559K
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    Employability £872K

  9. #109
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    From reading this thread I get the impression that Freemasonry is still trying to modernise and rid itself of its "old boys network" and secretive image. The thing is it always claimed it was actively trying to do this when I was attending meetings over 30 years ago, I'd have thought huge progress would have been made by now? It appears peoples impressions of the organisation haven't changed one iota.

    adg31, whilst your initiation and progression ceremonies would have been almost identical to your grandfathers (as mine would have been to my grandfathers) it doesn't change the fact that these ceremonies and the regalia that goes with them are archaic and frankly seem completely ridiculous in todays world. I've always held the view that the perception of Freemasonry will never start to change until these ceremonies are binned as these are the general publics and medias prime focus for seeing the organisation as being a secretive network.

  10. #110

    Freemasonry: Any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thewatchbloke View Post
    From reading this thread I get the impression that Freemasonry is still trying to modernise and rid itself of its "old boys network" and secretive image. The thing is it always claimed it was actively trying to do this when I was attending meetings over 30 years ago, I'd have thought huge progress would have been made by now? It appears peoples impressions of the organisation haven't changed one iota.

    adg31, whilst your initiation and progression ceremonies would have been almost identical to your grandfathers (as mine would have been to my grandfathers) it doesn't change the fact that these ceremonies and the regalia that goes with them are archaic and frankly seem completely ridiculous in todays world. I've always held the view that the perception of Freemasonry will never start to change until these ceremonies are binned as these are the general publics and medias prime focus for seeing the organisation as being a secretive network.
    I think that huge progress has been made in opening up in the 22 years that I have been a Freemason. However more does need to be done to address presentation and this is something which UGLE are both leading and encouraging.
    Indeed many Lodges, including my own, now have websites and there is an active engagement on social media from most of the Provincial Offices which would have been unthinkable just a few years ago.
    In terms of the ritual and regalia that is where I must differ from you. The Craft ceremonies are designed to illustrate key virtues and Freemasonry without them would be significantly diminished. I have known many Brethren to say that learning and delivering ritual has helped them in terms of developing self confidence and an ability to speak in public that they didn't know they had so it's not all bad!


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    Last edited by adg31; 12th July 2018 at 12:01.

  11. #111
    Master Thewatchbloke's Avatar
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    But the craft is what? From my experience it was all about learning lines by rote which I agree is an impressive feat of memory when you can recite the various tracing boards without error.

    I also agree the various ceremonies are impressive when you experience them for the first time but surely you can see that illustrating "key virtues" in secrecy with such arcane language and procedures is out of kilter with the modern world? They are never carried out with non Masons present and nobody is ever allowed to talk about them so don't you see the problems with the perception of Freemasonry that causes to non masons?

  12. #112
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    I’m going to a friends house today, it being the 12th holidays in N I, and there will be a broad spectrum of attendees. Pharmacists, a dentist, several teachers, a few admin workers, a digger driver, a chef, a few business owners etc.

    We’ll sit around and discuss all sorts of stuff, not much politics as we’re a diverse bunch, and have a few beers.

    I suppose the Freemasons do something similar at a get together. I think the secrecy and perceptions have largely disappeared, though it is considered a Protestant organisation over here (with the associated negativity) though I have no idea if that’s true or not.

  13. #113

    Freemasonry: Any good?

    I am fortunate to live in one of the oldest democracies in the World; however much of it is conducted in secret away from public view and surrounded by arcane ritual.
    Does this make it any less relevant?
    I agree that Freemasonry and its ritual is not for everyone - but I am more than happy to talk about the significance of its customs and rituals when asked as they can seem rather arcane (putting it mildly) to non-Masons.
    In many cases this has seen people say 'I never realised that - it actually makes sense when you put it like that.'


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    Last edited by adg31; 12th July 2018 at 12:29.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by demonloop View Post
    I’m going to a friends house today, it being the 12th holidays in N I, and there will be a broad spectrum of attendees. Pharmacists, a dentist, several teachers, a few admin workers, a digger driver, a chef, a few business owners etc.

    We’ll sit around and discuss all sorts of stuff, not much politics as we’re a diverse bunch, and have a few beers.

    I suppose the Freemasons do something similar at a get together. I think the secrecy and perceptions have largely disappeared, though it is considered a Protestant organisation over here (with the associated negativity) though I have no idea if that’s true or not.
    Have a great day - and a beer for me :)


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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by demonloop View Post
    I think the secrecy and perceptions have largely disappeared, though it is considered a Protestant organisation over here (with the associated negativity) though I have no idea if that’s true or not.
    I've visited a lodge with a Sikh Master!

  16. #116
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    I thought catholics can't be freemasons?
    So long, and thanks for all the fish :)

  17. #117

    Freemasonry: Any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by seikopath View Post
    I thought catholics can't be freemasons?
    Good question!
    My understanding is that Catholics believe in a God so can be Freemasons. However, I believe that historically the Catholic Church has not been too keen on Freemasonry viewing it as being contrary to their teaching.
    Discussing religion and politics is not encouraged at Lodge so you don't tend to enquire after someone's religious beliefs so I can't say if I've met any Catholic Freemasons on my journey.


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  18. #118
    Grand Master seikopath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adg31 View Post
    Good question!
    My understanding is that Catholics believe in a God so can be Freemasons. However, I believe that historically the Catholic Church has not been too keen on Freemasonry viewing it as being contrary to their teaching.
    Discussing religion and politics is not encouraged at Lodge so you don't tend to enquire after someone's religious beliefs so I can't say if I've met any Catholic Freemasons on my journey.


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    So you have to believe in god to be a freemason? Or is it like the Scouts where you can have any faith these days? What about atheists etc?
    So long, and thanks for all the fish :)

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by seikopath View Post
    So you have to believe in god to be a freemason? Or is it like the Scouts where you can have any faith these days? What about atheists etc?
    Basically any man who is over 21 (18 in some cases) years old and believes in a God can be a Freemason.
    There are no barriers arising from ethnicity, political views, economic standing or religion.


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  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by adg31 View Post
    I am fortunate to live in one of the oldest democracies in the World; however much of it is conducted in secret away from public view and surrounded by arcane ritual.
    Does this make it any less relevant?
    Much of the UK's arcane ritual is publicly broadcast, whether it be the state opening of parliament, the changing of the guard at Buckingham Palace or whatever. Yes, these are out of touch with modern times but they're not shrouded in secrecy and because of this are generally considered traditional or quaint and even a draw for tourists. Neither is much of our democracy conducted in secret, some of it is conducted behind closed doors and where national security is of concern it should be. However, with the freedom of information act the majority of what goes on is easily discoverable and anything significant or of concern is duly reported by the media.

    It's the secrecy that does Freemasonry a disservice.

  21. #121

    Freemasonry: Any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thewatchbloke View Post
    Much of the UK's arcane ritual is publicly broadcast, whether it be the state opening of parliament, the changing of the guard at Buckingham Palace or whatever. Yes, these are out of touch with modern times but they're not shrouded in secrecy and because of this are generally considered traditional or quaint and even a draw for tourists. Neither is much of our democracy conducted in secret, some of it is conducted behind closed doors and where national security is of concern it should be. However, with the freedom of information act the majority of what goes on is easily discoverable and anything significant or of concern is duly reported by the media.

    It's the secrecy that does Freemasonry a disservice.
    I never realised that the Privy Council meetings - or those of the Civil Service - were televised or open to the public?
    Freedom of Information requests will get you documentary details - though these may be often redacted.
    In contrast you have been able to read the full book of Masonic Ritual since it was published by Walton Hannah in 1952 (Darkness Visible).
    Similarly a number of Provinces are now restarting public parades in full regalia for important events in many cases for the first time since WWII.
    What other secrets are you referring to that are outside of the public realm - or are you suggesting that every Lodge meeting be televised - presumably along with that of every other private meeting of bowls clubs, unions, Women's Institute and the like to let everyone see what they are doing?


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    Last edited by adg31; 12th July 2018 at 13:17.

  22. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by adg31 View Post
    Basically any man who is over 21 (18 in some cases) years old and believes in a God can be a Freemason.
    There are no barriers arising from ethnicity, political views, economic standing or religion.


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    Disabled? From what I've read joiners should be able-bodied.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by adg31 View Post
    Basically any man who is over 21 (18 in some cases) years old and believes in a God can be a Freemason.
    There are no barriers arising from ethnicity, political views, economic standing or religion.


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    ^^^I had always wondered if that was the case, but was never sure.

    This is a very interesting and polarising thread discussion, yet seems to have stayed on relatively good terms for a change!

  24. #124

    Freemasonry: Any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Disabled? From what I've read joiners should be able-bodied.
    Nope, disabled are welcome.
    By coincidence the last issue of Freemasonry Today featured the story of a Royal Marine who suffered a triple amputation and joined the Freemasons.
    https://www.freemasonrytoday.com/fea...ge%20No%209528
    This may be an extreme example but many Lodges have disabled members.


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    Last edited by adg31; 12th July 2018 at 13:34.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by adg31 View Post
    I never realised that the Privy Council meetings - or those of the Civil Service - were televised or open to the public?
    Freedom of Information requests will get you documentary details - though these may be often redacted.
    In contrast you have been able to read the full book of Masonic Ritual since it was published by Walton Hannah in 1952 (Darkness Visible).
    Similarly a number of Provinces are now restarting public parades in full regalia for important events in many cases for the first time since WWII.
    What other secrets are you referring to that are outside of the public realm - or are you suggesting that every Lodge meeting be televised - presumably along with that of every other private meeting of bowls clubs, unions, Women's Institute and the like to let everyone see what they are doing?
    They aren't, which was why I said much of the Uk's arcane ritual is publicly broadcast instead of all of it. A public Masonic parade is far removed from the ceremonies that go on beyond the outer guard, perhaps if one or two of the United Grand Lodge of Englands meetings were televised it would give the general public a more informed view of what goes on behind closed doors?

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thewatchbloke View Post

    ........these ceremonies and the regalia that goes with them are archaic and frankly seem completely ridiculous in todays world.
    Take away the regalia, you get Rotary or Round Table, but without the substantial sums raised for charity.
    (I'm aware that Rotary & RT do great work too...but Freemasonry is on another level.)



    As for those that criticise the Masonic/Non Masonic charity split, I take it that should an ambulance with a tiny Square & Compass roll up at your house to take you to hospital after that heart attack, you'll politely tell the driver you'll make your own way in a taxi.
    Charity is charity....it costs the recipient nothing.

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Disabled? From what I've read joiners should be able-bodied.
    Where did you read that? i have seen Lodge members who have a disability as to God the reference is to a “Supreme Being” and i suspect the Roman Catholic Church does not approve of possible challengers not that we are or the fact there is no reference to Jesus there is however a RC version called the Knights of St Columbo which comes under the wing of the RC Church.
    As an aside to any Brother that has never been to Freemasons Hall if you can take the tour ( which is open to all inc the Ladies) or better if you get a chance to go a meeting there it is another world.

  28. #128

    Freemasonry: Any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thewatchbloke View Post
    They aren't, which was why I said much of the Uk's arcane ritual is publicly broadcast instead of all of it. A public Masonic parade is far removed from the ceremonies that go on beyond the outer guard, perhaps if one or two of the United Grand Lodge of Englands meetings were televised it would give the general public a more informed view of what goes on behind closed doors?
    The ritual dominates proceedings and is already in the public realm.
    The recent Sky documentary took viewers into the Lodge room in a way that few other organisations can match.
    However, it remains a private meeting rather than a public one. My guess is that very few private organisations, such as golf clubs, bowls clubs, allotment committees, school governors, businesses or unions would welcome the general public into their meetings - let alone go as far as UGLE did with Sky.
    I'm not sure exactly it is that are you wanting to see?


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    Last edited by adg31; 12th July 2018 at 13:44.

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifa View Post
    Take away the regalia, you get Rotary or Round Table, but without the substantial sums raised for charity.
    (I'm aware that Rotary & RT do great work too...but Freemasonry is on another level.)
    And that's entirely my point, in general the Rotary and Round Table organisations aren't viewed with suspicion where Freemasonry tends to be.

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by adg31 View Post
    I'm not sure exactly it is that are you wanting to see?
    I have no axe to grind, I don't want to see anything in particular. I'm trying (unsuccessfully it seems) to suggest ways in which Freemasonry can overcome the the way in which it's seen by the general public and media as being an organisation that's shrouded in secrecy and a bit of an "old boys club".

    Apparently it's been trying to do this (unsuccessfully it appears) in the 30+ years since I attended lodge meetings.

  31. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by mart broad View Post
    Where did you read that? i have seen Lodge members who have a disability as to God the reference is to a “Supreme Being” and i suspect the Roman Catholic Church does not approve of possible challengers not that we are or the fact there is no reference to Jesus there is however a RC version called the Knights of St Columbo which comes under the wing of the RC Church.
    As an aside to any Brother that has never been to Freemasons Hall if you can take the tour ( which is open to all inc the Ladies) or better if you get a chance to go a meeting there it is another world.
    Some reference on-line, might be wrong but that's the problem of the secrecy. Is reason for trousers up/down in the ritual to prove able-bodiedness?

    Accept it may have been once and now changed.

  32. #132

    Freemasonry: Any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Is reason for trousers up/down in the ritual to prove able-bodiedness?
    I was given to understand that it was to prove that you were a free man - not wearing shackles. Possibly something more relevant back in the 1700's!


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  33. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Rod View Post
    When Rick Wakeman's mother died he got so much support it made him become a Mason. There's a you tube video about it.
    "So Debbie, what first attracted you to the millionaire Paul Daniels"... 😆

  34. #134
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    I understood the the breast part was to prove you weren’t a woman.

  35. #135

    Freemasonry: Any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Templogin View Post
    I understood the the breast part was to prove you weren’t a woman.
    It serves two purposes, the first is to show that the candidate is a man the second being to expose their heart.
    Continuing on, the candidate arrives slipshod and without metals to show that they are coming humble and without material possessions in a state of helpless indigence.
    Finally they are hoodwinked as we all enter the World in a state of darkness.


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    Last edited by adg31; 12th July 2018 at 18:46.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingstepper View Post
    Some reference on-line, might be wrong but that's the problem of the secrecy. Is reason for trousers up/down in the ritual to prove able-bodiedness?

    Accept it may have been once and now changed.
    To show as has said that you are a free man

  37. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umbongo View Post
    "So Debbie, what first attracted you to the millionaire Paul Daniels"... 

    I have been in London Lodges where a lot of the members/ visitors present could both buy and sell Rick you give to Charity what you can and it is your personal business there is no percentage of personal wealth either estimated or enforced.

  38. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifa View Post
    As for those that criticise the Masonic/Non Masonic charity split, I take it that should an ambulance with a tiny Square & Compass roll up at your house to take you to hospital after that heart attack, you'll politely tell the driver you'll make your own way in a taxi.
    I must have misunderstood what you mean.
    Are you honestly suggesting that the ambulance service is funded primarily by the Freemasons charitable donations?!

  39. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by mart broad View Post
    I have been in London Lodges where a lot of the members/ visitors present could both buy and sell Rick you give to Charity what you can and it is your personal business there is no percentage of personal wealth either estimated or enforced.
    Well, my comment was meant in good humour.

    I have to say that l have a mate who is a mason and he's an all-round good guy - he doesn't go as often as he did, but he assured me he'd never seen anything remotely sinister. My reply was that, even if the masons did turn out to be a devious occult force, plotting to control society, then it would be incredibly unlikely that 99% of the membership would be even remotely aware of the fact - the herd would soon leak this information to those around them, as is the nature of us commoners. ;)

    Please bear in mind this discussion was carried out in a pub!

    He also offered to get me in, but it doesn't really appeal to me - my social life is reasonably full as it is and the only belonging l need to feel is to my family and oldest friends.

    On the "higher being" discussion - l remarked that l am a dyed in the wool atheist and so wouldn't be welcome - l didn't try to be smug or clever regarding this subject, as so many do - l just pointed it out over a pint.

    His response was that he too is an atheist (as l well knew), that many other masons are atheists and that, given his disregard for religion, he didn't really think it much of a crime to just pretend he had faith - in this case his definition of a "higher being" was his mother! He reasons, and l agree, that given there is no god, it's impossible to lie to a god
    Last edited by Umbongo; 12th July 2018 at 16:00.

  40. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Umbongo View Post
    Well, my comment was meant in good humour.
    On which note I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread for a very enjoyable, good humoured discussion :)



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  41. #141
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    I'm definitely going to look into this more after I move areas.

  42. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldoakknives View Post
    Since the Freemasons don't seem to harm anyone, does it matter that they support their own members and their families when they fall on hard times?

    And if they raise money for charity (used in the broader sense rather than an individual charity), raised totally by themselves, from themselves why shouldn't they spend it how they please?


    ook
    Fully agree with you ook. Better that than money given in the name of charity going to six figure salary 'employees'!
    Best Regards - Peter
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  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by adg31 View Post
    Good question!
    My understanding is that Catholics believe in a God so can be Freemasons. However, I believe that historically the Catholic Church has not been too keen on Freemasonry viewing it as being contrary to their teaching.
    Discussing religion and politics is not encouraged at Lodge so you don't tend to enquire after someone's religious beliefs so I can't say if I've met any Catholic Freemasons on my journey.


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    The chap I went in with is a catholic and a lovely bloke.

    There is absolutely no issue at all as far as he and the lodge is concerned. I think to even suggest there could be would be met with a baffled look.
    So clever my foot fell off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by adg31 View Post
    Good question!
    My understanding is that Catholics believe in a God so can be Freemasons. However, I believe that historically the Catholic Church has not been too keen on Freemasonry viewing it as being contrary to their teaching.
    Discussing religion and politics is not encouraged at Lodge so you don't tend to enquire after someone's religious beliefs so I can't say if I've met any Catholic Freemasons on my journey.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    That’s interesting, as it is absolutely not the perception in my experience in N Ireland. Its viewed as another Protestant fraternity type thing.

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    Craftsman Tifa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maysie View Post
    I must have misunderstood what you mean.
    Are you honestly suggesting that the ambulance service is funded primarily by the Freemasons charitable donations?!
    No, of course not.
    But I've lost count of the ambulances, medi-helecopters, life boats, DaVinci machines and God knows what else we've supplied..no strings attached....only to be greeted by mistrust and cynicism...

  46. #146
    Grand Master jwg663's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by demonloop View Post
    That’s interesting, as it is absolutely not the perception in my experience in N Ireland. Its viewed as another Protestant fraternity type thing.

    Scottish freemasonry is the same, essentially sectarian in nature.


    BTW, Mother Lodge 0 is in Kilwinning & apparently founded in 1140.
    ______

    ​Jim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwg663 View Post
    Scottish freemasonry is the same, essentially sectarian in nature.


    BTW, Mother Lodge 0 is in Kilwinning & apparently founded in 1140.
    I wonder though it is actually sectarian, or is that just the perception?

  48. #148
    Grand Master jwg663's Avatar
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    Church of Scotland Protestantism, in the main.
    ______

    ​Jim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jwg663 View Post
    Scottish freemasonry is the same, essentially sectarian in nature.


    BTW, Mother Lodge 0 is in Kilwinning & apparently founded in 1140.
    That is not the case at all.

    Sent from my SM-G935F using TZ-UK mobile app

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    Quote Originally Posted by Umbongo View Post
    Well, my comment was meant in good humour.

    I have to say that l have a mate who is a mason and he's an all-round good guy - he doesn't go as often as he did, but he assured me he'd never seen anything remotely sinister. My reply was that, even if the masons did turn out to be a devious occult force, plotting to control society, then it would be incredibly unlikely that 99% of the membership would be even remotely aware of the fact - the herd would soon leak this information to those around them, as is the nature of us commoners. ;)

    Please bear in mind this discussion was carried out in a pub!

    He also offered to get me in, but it doesn't really appeal to me - my social life is reasonably full as it is and the only belonging l need to feel is to my family and oldest friends.

    On the "higher being" discussion - l remarked that l am a dyed in the wool atheist and so wouldn't be welcome - l didn't try to be smug or clever regarding this subject, as so many do - l just pointed it out over a pint.

    His response was that he too is an atheist (as l well knew), that many other masons are atheists and that, given his disregard for religion, he didn't really think it much of a crime to just pretend he had faith - in this case his definition of a "higher being" was his mother! He reasons, and l agree, that given there is no god, it's impossible to lie to a god
    One of my friends introduced me to Freemasonry and his 'higher being' was the spurs manager being a Tottenham fan!

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