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Thread: Freemasonry: Any good?

  1. #201
    Master -Ally-'s Avatar
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    Archaic.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by -Ally- View Post
    Archaic.
    Antagonistic.

  3. #203

    Freemasonry: Any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by vulcangascompany View Post
    Indeed does any FM feel uncomfortable that females are barred from joining...In the 21st C I personally can't imagine wanting to join a society to which entry is not allowed to 50% of society..I presume as having joined and accepted the T&C you accept this situation? I'd like to hear the FM take on this, thanks.
    I'm perfectly happy with the present situation thank you.
    Similarly I am happy to confirm that I do not feel discriminated against by my inability to join The Order of Women Freemasons, The Inner Wheel or Women's Institute or indeed any of the other great women only organisations that exist today.
    Most Freemasons I know are very grateful to their partners for allowing them the time to spend on their interest which is why Ladies Nights, held as a way to say thank you for their tolerance, are generally so well attended. Similarly, most Lodges take care of widows with regular lunches and gifts at Christmas time after their partners have died so they are very much a part of the wider Masonic family.


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    Last edited by adg31; 14th July 2018 at 00:11.

  4. #204

    Freemasonry: Any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Groundrush View Post
    It does make me wonder though, how is this apparent religion and gender based discrimination not in contravention of the Equality Act (2010)?
    I'm not a lawyer and I can't see where the religious discrimination you reference would come from as the requirement is only for a prospective Freemason to have a religious belief. This may be any religious belief provided it included a belief in a Supreme Being and was compatible with the three Grand Principles of Freemasonry: brotherly love, relief of those in distress and truth.
    However, when it comes to gender, my understanding of the 2010 Equality Act is that it does actually recognise the possibile benefits of having same sex organisations where the main purpose of the club is to bring together people who share a particular characteristic or interest, which in this case would be Freemasonry, so it would be within the scope of the legislation.
    However it is also made clear they may not then discriminate on other grounds such as race, religion, disability or sexual orientation.
    So whilst you can have a same sex organisation you would not then be able to discriminate against a member of that sex; for example on the basis of their homosexuality or disability.
    Sorry for the rather long winded answer but your question was interesting and did get me thinking!


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    Last edited by adg31; 14th July 2018 at 07:55.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by adg31 View Post
    I'm not a lawyer and I can't see where the religious discrimination you reference would come from as the requirement is only for a prospective Freemason to have a religious belief.
    I'm not a lawyer either but as I understand it The Equality Act 2010 says you must not be discriminated against because you are (or are not) of a particular religion or you hold (or do not hold) a particular philosophical belief. The act also protects people with no religion if they are discriminated against because of their beliefs (or lack thereof).

    Quote Originally Posted by adg31 View Post
    However, when it comes to gender, my understanding of the 2010 Equality Act is that it does actually recognise the possibile benefits of having same sex organisations where the main purpose of the club is to bring together people who share a particular characteristic or interest, which in this case would be Freemasonry, so it would be within the scope of the legislation.
    I'm not sure about this either. The act does allow for some gender based discrimination but only when essential for certain jobs or for positive action to promote an under represented gender.

    Discrimination due to either category looks dubious to me but I guess we won't know for sure unless it is tested in court.
    Last edited by Groundrush; 14th July 2018 at 02:05.

  6. #206

    Freemasonry: Any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Groundrush View Post
    I'm not a lawyer either but as I understand it The Equality Act 2010 says you must not be discriminated against because you are (or are not) of a particular religion or you hold (or do not hold) a particular philosophical belief. The act also protects people with no religion if they are discriminated against because of their beliefs (or lack thereof).

    I'm not sure about this either. The act does allow for some gender based discrimination but only when essential for certain jobs or for positive action to promote an under represented gender.

    Discrimination due to either category looks dubious to me but I guess we won't know for sure unless it is tested in court.
    The legislation appears to be quite specific about the fact that you can have, for instance, a single sex membership within a club or organisation - so long as you don't then discriminate against anyone within that membership on the basis of say colour, disability or sexual orientation.
    Similarly, if you have a club or organisation of mixed male and female membership you can't then say, for example, that women get their drinks at half price but men have to pay double; both must be treated equally in all aspects.
    If you want to test it in Court I would be very interested to see the outcome - but would guess that most organisations which apply specific membership criteria in some way will have looked carefully into this with legal minds far better than mine

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    Last edited by adg31; 14th July 2018 at 08:07.

  7. #207
    So it's legal to discriminate provided you are clear about how you discriminate and follow that policy completely. So a male theist only club is legal provided you only allow male theists in. I wonder what would happen if a member is subsequently found not to be either male or a theist. Presumably they would have to be ejected or it would be a breach of the Equality Act to then not allow other non-male and/or atheists in. Or maybe not. I dunno. Either way, I wouldn't join a club that is openly discriminatory regardless of legality.

  8. #208

    Freemasonry: Any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by Groundrush View Post
    So it's legal to discriminate provided you are clear about how you discriminate and follow that policy completely. So a male theist only club is legal provided you only allow male theists in. I wonder what would happen if a member is subsequently found not to be either male or a theist. Presumably they would have to be ejected or it would be a breach of the Equality Act to then not allow other non-male and/or atheists in. Or maybe not. I dunno. Either way, I wouldn't join a club that is openly discriminatory regardless of legality.
    I fear that we are now in danger of overthinking the implications of this!
    Freemasonry is certainly not the only body where membership is restricted on the basis of gender or some other attribute so I wouldn't get too hung up about it. As I've said previously, my inability to join the WI on the basis of my being a man does not upset me in any way or ruin my enjoyment of life - much as I respect and admire what they do.
    Choosing not to join any organisation is entirely your prerogative which I respect - but I have enjoyed our discussion


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    Last edited by adg31; 14th July 2018 at 11:54.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by Groundrush View Post
    Discrimination due to either category looks dubious to me but I guess we won't know for sure unless it is tested in court.
    Where, of course, the judge would be a member of the freemasons...😉😈

  10. #210
    Grand Master mart broad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Umbongo View Post
    Where, of course, the judge would be a member of the freemasons...
    Of course but maybe you and groundrush could also investigate this mob while your at it

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_of_St_Columba

  11. #211
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    Bumping this thread just to ask any current forum-members opinions really….

    I’ve been invited to join several times over the years and never fancied it but a good friend has asked me to join and he’s simply a genuinely good bloke, so I’ve met a few other members and they all just seem to be decent men who like a beer and more importantly somehow want to ‘give a bit back’ if that makes sense.

    I’m well aware of the ‘funny handshake’ comments etc so please do pile on with them if you’d like to, but I’d also like to hear from anyone with direct experience, good, bad, or ugly!!

    Thanks in advance…..

  12. #212
    My Dad is a member and he loves it. For him it seems to be a social club with hierarchy , some pageantry and some obtuse rules all of which he likes but then he was in the army and so I think a little predisposed for that sort of thing.

    I have been to a couple of events, they are alright but it didn’t resonate for me.

  13. #213
    Do you believe in a supreme being?

  14. #214
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    When I was asked on which book I would make my pledge I answered Darwin’s “On the origin of species”.
    I think they understood
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by noTAGlove View Post
    Do you believe in a supreme being?
    Below from The Guardian … I can’t believe this organisation can recruit new members in 2024 …

    Is Freemasonry a religion?

    No, it is a secular movement, although new members are expected to acknowledge a belief in a God-like superior being, often called the Grand or Great Architect of the Universe. Anyone believing in a single deity may be admitted. Rudyard Kipling, who was a member of a masonic lodge in Lahore, wrote a number of poems about his fellow masons who were Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and Jews. In theory, all discussion of religion and politics is prohibited within lodges.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by paw3001 View Post
    For him it seems to be a social club with hierarchy , some pageantry and some obtuse rules he all likes
    It sounds like commoners play acting as royals.

    We do love the class system, pomp and circumstance in this country, no matter how you get your fill of it.

  17. #217
    Oh he is a big royalist etc.

    Personally, to be fair I didn’t see Class being much of an issue to be honest but the structure and apron pomp most certainly.

  18. #218
    Master spuds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paw3001 View Post
    My Dad is a member and he loves it. For him it seems to be a social club with hierarchy , some pageantry and some obtuse rules all of which he likes but then he was in the army and so I think a little predisposed for that sort of thing.

    I have been to a couple of events, they are alright but it didn’t resonate for me.
    Thank you for your balanced reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by noTAGlove View Post
    Do you believe in a supreme being?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    When I was asked on which book I would make my pledge I answered Darwin’s “On the origin of species”.
    I think they understood
    Fair play, to each his own!

    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    Below from The Guardian … I can’t believe this organisation can recruit new members in 2024 …

    Is Freemasonry a religion?

    No, it is a secular movement, although new members are expected to acknowledge a belief in a God-like superior being, often called the Grand or Great Architect of the Universe. Anyone believing in a single deity may be admitted. Rudyard Kipling, who was a member of a masonic lodge in Lahore, wrote a number of poems about his fellow masons who were Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and Jews. In theory, all discussion of religion and politics is prohibited within lodges.
    Why shouldn’t it be able to recruit in 2024?
    I’m clearly missing your point, sorry!
    (Fundamentally they’re the biggest giver to charity in the UK after the lottery, what’s not to like?)

    Quote Originally Posted by noTAGlove View Post
    It sounds like commoners play acting as royals.

    We do love the class system, pomp and circumstance in this country, no matter how you get your fill of it.
    “Sounds like”….. (‘nuff said)

    Quote Originally Posted by paw3001 View Post
    Oh he is a big royalist etc.

    Personally, to be fair I didn’t see Class being much of an issue to be honest but the structure and apron pomp most certainly.
    There is no “class” system as such, anyone can have a go at any ‘position’ that they want to.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by spuds View Post
    Why shouldn’t it be able to recruit in 2024?
    I’m clearly missing your point, sorry!
    I’m was assuming there was enough education around that acknowledging a belief in a God-like superior being, often called the Grand or Great Architect of the Universe would be ridiculous… clearly not.

  20. #220
    Master spuds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    I’m was assuming there was enough education around that acknowledging a belief in a God-like superior being, often called the Grand or Great Architect of the Universe would be ridiculous… clearly not.
    The question asked is “Do you believe in a God?”

    It could be Christian God, Allah, Buddha, or “The Force”, for all they care, are you seriously belittling anyone with any religious beliefs?

    If this was the Bear Pit I’d tell you that I think you’re (at least coming across as) a condescending whatever but it’s not so I’ll leave the last word to your imagination.

  21. #221
    Master Halitosis's Avatar
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    A mate of mine is a FM and describes himself as being at the atheist end of agnostic. I didn't know about the belief requirement so presumably he pretended on joining and it doesn't play a big role in the day-to-day.

  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by spuds View Post
    The question asked is “Do you believe in a God?”
    That’s not what the text says, it says do you acknowledge a belief in a God-like superior being, often called the Grand or Great Architect of the Universe …

    Anyway as this is the G&D we should probably leave it there …

  23. #223
    Master spuds's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    That’s not what the text says, it says do you acknowledge a belief in a God-like superior being, often called the Grand or Great Architect of the Universe …

    Anyway as this is the G&D we should probably leave it there …
    I was asked if I believe in A God.

    I know that it was specifically “A God” rather than “God” because the guy asking originally asked “do you believe in God” and was corrected.

    Regardless though, I don’t think you (nor anyone) have any right to question anyone’s (peaceful) religious beliefs nor their level of education.

    So yes, let’s leave it there.

  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by spuds View Post
    The question asked is “Do you believe in a God?”

    It could be Christian God, Allah, Buddha, or “The Force”, for all they care, are you seriously belittling anyone with any religious beliefs?
    Umm, Buddha isn't a God. Buddhists don't believe in a supreme being so I suppose are not allowed in the club. Sounds as though a lot of people just fib about it, and perhaps that doesn't matter much if it doesn't play a big part in lodge activities.
    Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH

  25. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Curta View Post
    Umm, Buddha isn't a God. Buddhists don't believe in a supreme being so I suppose are not allowed in the club. Sounds as though a lot of people just fib about it, and perhaps that doesn't matter much if it doesn't play a big part in lodge activities.
    My mistake and my sincere apologies to any Buddhists that read this…

  26. #226
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    I did a speech at the grand lodge in London (Freemasons had financially supported a charity I'm part of) and it was an odd experience with the robes, ceremony, ranks, walking certain ways etc. However after all that there was a dinner and the people I interacted with seemed like decent folk. Didn't appeal to me to join (if they'd even have me as no idea what the criteria is), but it didn't come across as anything dodgy either.

  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    I’m was assuming there was enough education around that acknowledging a belief in a God-like superior being, often called the Grand or Great Architect of the Universe would be ridiculous… clearly not.
    Funnily enough, I always assumed that there was enough education around to allow anyone their own opinions or beliefs without fear of ridicule as long as they weren't forced on to others. Clearly not the case of course given the current state of the world. (and I'm Agnostic)

    Sir Robin Knox-Johnston - "there's no such thing as an atheist in the southern ocean"

  28. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by theancientmariner View Post
    Funnily enough, I always assumed that there was enough education around to allow anyone their own opinions or beliefs without fear of ridicule as long as they weren't forced on to others. Clearly not the case of course given the current state of the world. (and I'm Agnostic)
    You'd hope so but there's a tradition of ridiculing religion on here with talk of 'sky-faries' and such like. Different of course when a well-liked member is involved...

  29. #229
    Grand Master wileeeeeey's Avatar
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    I just want to know if Mick is a mason.

  30. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by theancientmariner View Post
    Funnily enough, I always assumed that there was enough education around to allow anyone their own opinions or beliefs without fear of ridicule as long as they weren't forced on to others. Clearly not the case of course given the current state of the world. (and I'm Agnostic)

    Sir Robin Knox-Johnston - "there's no such thing as an atheist in the southern ocean"
    If a grown man still believes in Father Christmas or fairies at the bottom of the garden what are people opinions likely to be ?

    Fair enough if people want to believe in such things …

  31. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by spuds View Post
    (Fundamentally they’re the biggest giver to charity in the UK after the lottery, what’s not to like?)
    Jimmy Savile did a great deal of charity work, as did Lance Armstrong…. Just saying …
    Last edited by Montello; 7th February 2024 at 09:59.

  32. #232
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    Best Regards - Peter

    I'd hate to be with you when you're on your own.

  33. #233

    Freemasonry: Any good?

    Seriously? WTF!

    John Inman with a smile on his face as he about to sacrifice a virgin? Or is it the ceremonial outfit of a snooker referee?

    Nice pinny though.

    Last edited by noTAGlove; 7th February 2024 at 13:41.

  34. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    If a grown man still believes in Father Christmas or fairies at the bottom of the garden what are people opinions likely to be ?

    Fair enough if people want to believe in such things …
    I was going to reply
    "Are you seriously suggesting that a persons religious beliefs are the equivalent of believing in Father Christmas??"
    but when I paused for a moment and considered your opinion I can actually see the reasoning behind it.

    Fortunately I'm educated and intelligent enough to acknowledge this, and also to understand that it's not my place to belittle nor question any other persons (peaceful) beliefs, regardless of what they might be.



    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    Jimmy Savile did a great deal of charity work, as did Lance Armstrong…. Just saying …
    Again I acknowledge the reasoning behind your comparison, albeit far too jaundiced for my own taste.

  35. #235
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    The amusing (and maybe interesting in this context) is that the main obedience of freemasonry in France not only doesn't require its members to believe in a Great Architect, but was the main driver at the beginning of the 20th century of the concept of laicity, which is still today one of the pillars of the French Republic.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  36. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by noTAGlove View Post

    What’s not to like?

  37. #237

    Freemasonry: Any good?

    Quote Originally Posted by spuds View Post
    I was going to reply
    "Are you seriously suggesting that a persons religious beliefs are the equivalent of believing in Father Christmas??"
    but when I paused for a moment and considered your opinion I can actually see the reasoning behind it.

    Fortunately I'm educated and intelligent enough to acknowledge this, and also to understand that it's not my place to belittle nor question any other persons (peaceful) beliefs, regardless of what they might be.





    Again I acknowledge the reasoning behind your comparison, albeit far too jaundiced for my own taste.
    You may like this meme then which seems relevant to this discussion and is useful when Christmas comes around!

    To be open and transparent, I have no issue with anyone’s individual beliefs but personally I find it all a bit of nonsense. I am more militant towards organised religions which seem to be more about controlling people in my opinion but horses for courses!

    l
    Last edited by paw3001; 7th February 2024 at 17:33.

  38. #238
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    Freemasonry

    I joined up when I was in my mid 30's ( with a couple of pals)
    Very enjoyable evenings, with a bit of pomp and circumstance, but more importantly from my point of view- good food, wine and company.
    As you say, charity is at the forefront of the organisation.

    All the people I met were good, decent blokes.
    I haven't been for a few years, as life has got in the way, but will certainly look to re attend some meetings in a couple of years

  39. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by spuds View Post
    I was going to reply
    "Are you seriously suggesting that a persons religious beliefs are the equivalent of believing in Father Christmas??"
    They are. Directly.

  40. #240
    Grand Master Mr Curta's Avatar
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    I don't have a problem with anybody's religious beliefs as long as they don't impinge on anyone else, and can see them as a positive if they are generally beneficial to others. But limiting entry to a club to those with a knob and a belief in a supreme creator sounds as though the rules were written by a bloke with a pain in the arse atheist wife.
    Don't just do something, sit there. - TNH

  41. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonbed View Post
    Very enjoyable evenings, with a bit of pomp and circumstance, but more importantly from my point of view- good food, wine and company.
    I do this with my friends, usually in the pub. Less of the pomp admittedly.

    I’ve never understood Freemasons or any such organisation. The charity aspect is great but you don’t need a gang wearing silly clothes and silly handshakes to raise money for charity. Look at this forum for example

  42. #242
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    A secret society that limits membership by gender and religious beliefs… yeah right … sign me up…

  43. #243
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    A secret society that limits membership by gender and religious beliefs… yeah right … sign me up…
    It's not secret. It's discreet.

    The charity work is admirable and a pretty sad reflection on society, too. As a German comic once said, “We don’t do charity in Germany. We pay taxes. Charity is a failure of governments’ responsibilities.”

    In France it is much more about reflecting on societies and how to improve it as well as its members: becoming a mason is a journey for those who wish to improve themselves and society; There are regular speakers as well as research carried out by the brothers on a chosen subject ("la planche", literally the board but in fact derived from the slang "plancher", meaning to work) and presented in a "tenue", the weekly or fortnightly meeting); this is followed by a discussion with formal rules so that every one can bring his reflections on the topic, a summary of the evening and ends with "les agapes", the meal.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  44. #244
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    Some people have mentioned that I might benefit from improving. I am not so sure.

  45. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    A secret society that limits membership by gender and religious beliefs… yeah right … sign me up…
    The food and wine is pucker though.

  46. #246
    Grand Master wileeeeeey's Avatar
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    On a positive if there are any forms to be filled out you probably won’t have to state your pronouns.

  47. #247
    Master Tifa's Avatar
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    There will always be those who criticise.
    Freemasonry isn't perfect, it doesn't pretend to be.
    If anyone can let me know of a better or friendlier organisation with fewer requirements for membership, I'd be interested to hear about it.
    As has been said, it's a great fundraiser, enjoyable, meaningful and genuinely develops the individual.
    Tell me of another organisation where you could safely leave your wallet, cards and phone on the dinner table unattended for a few hours and they'd still be there when you returned....I can't think of one....

  48. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tifa View Post

    If anyone can let me know of a better or friendlier organisation with fewer requirements for membership ...

    eerrrr ... the entry requirements are a bit problematic for women and anyone who doesn't believe in the existence of the supreme being the Grand Architect ...
    Last edited by Montello; 8th February 2024 at 17:00.

  49. #249
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    eerrrr ... the entry requirements are a bit problematic for women and anyone who doesn't believe in the existence of the supreme being the Grand Architect ...
    There’s the WI for women but they have to bake their own cakes.

  50. #250
    Master Tifa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    eerrrr ... the entry requirements are a bit problematic for women and anyone who doesn't believe in the existence of the supreme being the Grand Architect ...
    Not problematic for women at all.
    Male and female freemasonry co-exist perfectly. See HFAF & OWF.
    Without a belief in a Supreme Being, freemasonry won't work for the individual.

    Still waiting for you to let me know of a better organisation with similar tenet's...I'm genuinely interested.

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