Reply With QuoteRunning seriously for 40 years. What sort of percentage does your PB parkrun give you at 29 years?
(oh and I started this morning's parkrun with Joanne Sinton-Hewitt.)
As per title anybody enjoy running?
I have lost 3 stone since the start of the year (still have another 1.5-2 to lose) and have been doing lots of HIIT and spin classes at the gym.
A friend in work mentioned parkrun to me - I was apprehensive as when I tried running while heavier it was very sore on my knees. However I have lots of friends that enjoy it so thought I would give it a go and I’m loving it
In 3 weeks I’ve gone from never having ran a 5k to having run 5 now with my time coming down from 28 minutes to 23.26 today at Parkrun! That was very hard work today and I know the margins of improvement will slow down massively now but I’m really enjoying it
I’ve booked a place on a 10k on 8th July and if that goes well I might aim to do Birmingham half marathon in October
At the start of this year I would never have thought I could run 5k let alone in 23.26 and be aiming for a 10k
So anybody else run? Any tips and words of wisdom for a newbie?
To out the above in context by the way I’m currently 29, weigh 14st 10lb and am 5ft 8 (hence still some way to go on the weight loss journey)
Running seriously for 40 years. What sort of percentage does your PB parkrun give you at 29 years?
(oh and I started this morning's parkrun with Joanne Sinton-Hewitt.)
Today’s time which is my PB although I’ve only done 2 Parkruns gives me a percentage of 55.08% which I think means just above average?Originally Posted by catch21
I don’t fully understand your last sentence?
Any tips for somebody starting out given your wealth of experience?
I’m under no illusions that I’m going to ever be quick but as mentioned I’m surprised I enjoy it and want to continue to improve if I can
Last edited by mk2driver; 23rd June 2018 at 22:38.
I actually went for a run today - well tried to go for a run. It was a sort of run, then walk, then run ;)
I used to run 5k three times a week as part of my training routine. I’m hoping to be able to run at least one 5k within the next few weeks - judging by today’s effort it’s not going to be as easy as I expected :(
It's just a matter of time...
All I would say is don’t put distance on too quickly be happy with your weight loss and 10k you should be able to do that Ok but I would leave the half (21k) to next year. Also learn to pace yourself if your keen on a good time probably with a running watch this will be especially important for the 10k and half as you don’t want to gas out by running the first part too fast.
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55% you must have started out very cardio vascular fit. Cycling or something?
I’d say, don’t go too hard too quickly or you will simply pick up an injury.
Joanne is the wife of the founder of the parkrun.
Get the very best running shoes you can, and get your gait analysed first.
Keep hydrated, isotonic is best.
Cut the tackle-mesh out of your running shorts.
Wear your socks inside out.
Last edited by catch21; 24th June 2018 at 08:04.
What does the 55% mean ?
I used to run loads. I loved it 10k pb is 35min 45 sec
Always wanted to do 10miles in 1 hour. Got to 63min
Great times, front end of most running clubs.
Build it up slowly, but the best advice is join a local running club and decide on what your aim is, general fitness, weight loss or improving times and becoming competitive.
On your own you can only reach a certain point, but in a club with speed sessions, farklek and hills sessions you soon start to build up stamina and performance.
Impressive early times for a 5k, my PB was 20:30 in a Santa Suit. A 10k is within reach, but moving out takes managing and time. I would advise having done a 10k it takes the best part of 6 months serious training to build up to a half. 13.2 miles is a long way if you have never done it before. Most runners in training exceed the distance. I used to do 15 mile runs when training for a half.
A marathon is a completely different beast and I won't even go there.
There are plenty of training plans for the various distances on line.
My advice, join a club, don't obsess in the early days with PBs and most of all enjoy it and buy quality trainers.
A tale of warning, my knees are now shot, so I am out in my running gear on long walking yomps, 4, 6 and 8 miles at a time.
Last edited by Wallasey Runner; 23rd June 2018 at 23:38.
I've been a 'runner' for over 50 years, but I'm now sidelined with bursitis in the hip I had replaced two years ago. Now I just walk eight miles at a crack.
I'm concerned that, as a beginner, you're doubling your race distance in two weeks. You could be setting yourself up for a DNF, an injury, or a psychological setback. Since you're already signed up, I suggest you start out at a very manageable pace (for 6 miles), and not push yourself until you've completed at least 4 miles handily. Just look at the event as an 'exploratory' exercise, not a true competitive one.
Thank you for that and sounds very sensible
We have our first baby arriving in December which sort of puts a natural deadline on a structured training plan for a while but I won’t push too hard in terms of doing the half if I’m not ready
Thankfully I do have a friend who is a sub 3 hour marathon runner and think I will train with him soon and will probably join a club as well
I have a Garmin Forerunner 30 that I bought last week and have used in two runs which has helped massively
Last edited by mk2driver; 24th June 2018 at 03:31.
I have been doing loads of spin classes and HIIT classes at the gym but that’s it. It was tough today though, that time was the very best I could have done today, nothing left in the tank for that distance
I’ve already had my gait analysed and I’m in Brooks Vapor 4 shoes as I needed some structured support. Was completed by my local running shop who have some really experienced staff in there
Socks inside out?
Thank you, I agree with the club and am currently looking at the local ones for the one that works for me which is likely to be the club that are organising the 10k I’m entered into
Ideally I’d like to do all 3 but in priority order the aums are : fitness, weight loss, times at this point
Thank you for the advice in 10k and half - I think joining a club will also help with this I’m sure as I am sure there would be others training for the same thing if I decided to do it
Quality trainers already sourced - Brooks Vapor 4 following gait analysis in local independent running ship
I agree it will be a challenge and I’m prepared for those possibilities
I’m aiming for under 60 minutes which should be achievable. I’ve now got a Garmin watch to aid with pacing and training over the next couple of weeks will be focused on longer runs at a manageable pace as you suggest
I am absolutely focused on simply finishing, hopefully in under an hour! I know I won’t be competitive and for me this whole experience is about challenging myself rather than being competitive against others
Please report back on your experience and results in this thread afterwards.
The 55% is a sample reference measure of your fitness for your gender and age. The first thing to say is that the male and female scales are completely incompatible. No comparisons can be drawn at all but having said that within a single gender they seem to represent your present level of fitness for your age quite well. Even though mk2’s most recent parkrun time is faster than mine by a huge margin, his percentage is lower as he’s less than half my age.
The parkrun website will tell you more but it is still somewhat mysterious. There is a website that will give you the figure for other distances, times and ages. You put in your distance, time and age and it gives you your fitness percentage for those parameters. It’s been interesting putting in my historic times to see how fit I was back then.
I definitely willPlease report back on your experience and results in this thread afterwards.
Already been said but build up slowly to the half marathon, take the time to improve your stamina and you will enjoy the run more.
I used to get sore knees so I concentrated on improving leg strength and changed my training to include more hills. Worked for me.
I like to vary my runs to avoid getting bored or the runs becoming routine, hills, flat, on road or off road. I also book an event each month to keep me motivated, ultimately just remember to enjoy it
It’s amazing how quickly you lose running fitness
I struggle doing 5k now
Thanks for the advice - I agree on the variety of styles and routes and will try and go the same thing
Booking an event regularly also seems like a good idea as it’s akways giving you something to aim for
I’m under io illusions that if I do decide to do a half marathon that it’s going to require a lot of work over a long time. I will see how the 10k goes first as obviously the half marathon is over twice that distance!
I'm just back from a 5k, 22C so pretty hot!
I run 4-6k every day, and do any local charity runs too. Used to do parkrun but the time doesn't suit as much as it did pre-baba
Get yourself properly analysed for gait and buy the correct trainers is the best advice I can give. My mate runs marathons and tells me that a 5k and a half marathon are very different animals with very different training regimes.
What fresh hell is this?
My recommendation is do not under any circumstances remove the banana hammock. Your gentleman's vegetables will swing from one side to the other like an excited chimp.
I always wear the Nike 7" two in one shorts. Keeps everything tightly packed and avoids any unwanted rubbing on the top of the legs.
Although I poo-pooed then for a while, I now swear by running tights. Short/Capri style for summer and full length for winter.
Did 16km this morning with 3 mates. The big event for us this year is Man v Mountain in September so I get a couple of short runs 5m/8km in during the week with some interval sessions, then a longer group run at weekends.
20 years of running now with lots of 10kms, half marathons, triathlons and off-road/obstacle runs along the way. Still love it. Nothing beats an early morning winter run while it’s still quiet.
Best tip I can give (and many have alluded to it) is the power of marginal gains. Work up slowly to longer distances and faster times. Don’t be tempted to go ‘zero to hero’ too quickly. A friend does this and is regularly injured and unwell.
Joining a club does return real benefits giving you people to train with and structured sessions - distance work, speed work, intervals, hill sessions etc.
Above all - enjoy it!
Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app
been running 6 years odd now - 3rd marathon done this year and 4th planned for november. i started with 5km a couple of times a week, now run 3 to 4 times a week - got the wife on it too so now its a struggle to fit our runs into schedules !
For me this is the most important tip. IMHO the hardest part of a half marathon is getting to the start line in good shape and not injured. Lots of little muscles, tendons, ligaments etc. need more time to adapt than the big ones, which will happen if you build up slowly.
23m for 5k is a fantastic time to start out with.
Running is so addictive. It’s great.
I remember doing every run available when I was younger. In your 20s and early 30s for me it was brilliant
10k after 10k no trouble.
Best advice I can have for a new runner is take it steady
My friend joined us years ago to do the London marathon
No previous running.
For a few weeks he was flying. Then niggles set in and he had to pull out
:) excellent. So your tackle-mesh isn’t made of coarse sandpaper? First thing I do is dispense with the darn stuff and wear some appropriate shreddies instead.
Well, at 61 my running days are well behind me, but back in the day was a 72/73 min half marathon - 53/54 10 mile runner. Happy days! Could turn up for a 6 x 800 or 3 x 1500 session and find Spedding or McCleod there, tantalyzingly near at the end of 1500m distance wise but those few seconds were a massive difference to bridge.
F.T.F.A.
Thanks to everyone for the advice so far - there are a lot of experienced runners on here it seems!
If I do build up to a longer distance I will be sure to take it steady and will definitely join a running club where I can learn from others as well as make sure I’m training in the right way
I never thought I would enjoy running and very much but trying to be a hero in any way. Did the first Parkrun just to see if I could do it because at the start of this year I definitely couldn’t! Then I realised that not only could I do it, I enjoyed it and I was better at it than I thought I would be
Looking forward to some longer runs around 8k maybe twice this week at the approx pace I want to run the 10k in
I am sure I will be back in here regularly for advice!
Been doing 30-40K per week for a few years, interspersed with cycling, more so now my sons getting good.
Get a good pair of trainers which work for you - I’ve been using Nike Structure and variants thereof for decades.
Wear short running Lycra shorts under a pair of outer shorts - I have large thighs and this stops any chafing. If you do experience chafe, a small tub of Vaseline is your friend.
A good long sleeve base layer is also worth its weight in gold. Helly Hansen Lifa works for me. Can be worn under a short sleeve outer T in winter, just roll up sleeves when you heat up, or by itself. In current summer conditions a good tech short sleeve T suffices,I’m impressed with Under Armor heatgear and have two currently.
Buffwear Buffs are immensely useful. I always carry at least one wrapped round my wrist for use as a towel, sweatband or neck warmer. In winter I use two, start out with one round my neck, the other round my head or wrist (depending on cold). As you heat up, they can be transferred to wrists.
A water bottle with rubber wrist strap. You can buy latter on Amazon. Best £5 I ever spent. Attaches a bottle (I use a CamelBak bidon which doubles up,on my bike) securely and comfily to hand. Ensures you are well hydrated.
I use Apple Watch to track pulse rate for heart rate intervals, also a Rangeman on other wrist for HIIT interval timing if needed. Large buttons, good weather indication and easy to use timer.
The only person you are competing against is yourself - enjoy!
Thank you for that - lots of great advice in there!
Just ordered some undershorts - I haven’t had any issues without them so far but the runs haven’t been long
Trainers are sorted - Brooks Vapor 4 following gait analysis and so far they have been fantastic
Have ordered an UnderArmour too as so far I’ve been using old T-Shirts and they are very big on me now
Last edited by mk2driver; 24th June 2018 at 19:56.
Oh, forgot, another good tip is to have two full sets of gear (shorts, t shirt, socks base layer etc) that way you always have one free when ones getting washed.
A good pair of thermal ‘liner’ gloves are great for winter, these are much lighter than conventional outer gloves, usually made from polypropylene or merino wool, and can be easily scrunched up and jammed in a pocket or under a Buff.
And a good running gilet (loads available) which insulates/windproofs your core plus also has zip pockets for stashing keys etc is also a godsend. Can be used in autumn/spring with t shirt, or winter with baselayer and t shirt. I have an ancient Nike one I got for buttons from eBay years ago, still going great.
Heh. I see what you mean now.
I prefer wearing a Camelbak Delaney hydration waist pak. Besides handling 20-30 oz. of fluid, the zipped pocket is great for holding keys, ID, money, etc. without bouncing around in (or out of) my pockets. The water bottle is really handy and avoids carrying an unbalanced weight in one hand, possibly causing back problems. My shirt lays over the pak, which also helps keep the sun off the water bottle.
As an ex-runner, I was blighted by lower leg injuries/problems from my early 20s, probably caused by doing lots of hard training aged 13-17 when I ran at club level and showed a lot of promise (.....I could've been a contender....). Now I`m 60 I confine my efforts to 20-25 mins jogging on soft ground with a 1 min rest every 4-5 minutes to take the tension out of my legs. Ideally I do this with stepdaughter's Labrador (jog with the dog, bound with the hound) but it's too hot for him at the moment.
My strong advice is to use good shoes that offer plenty of cushioning. Don`t continue using them once the cushioning's become compressed; this happens with some shoes long before the soles get worn out, and you don`t notice it. Keep a fresh pair for running on roads and use the older pairs on soft ground to wear them up.
Always do lots of stretching. Achilles tendons and calf muscles need looking after, stretch them well to keep them supple and minimise risk of injury.
Don`t build up the mileage too quickly, that's a sure-fire way to get injured. Until your weight has reached something close to ideal for your size I advise against trying to do too much or aiming to run 10K or half-marathons. Give your body longer to adapt; carrying excess weight increases the stress on your legs. Keep the mileage down until the weight's off.
Avoid chronic fatigue in the muscles. This happens with running on consecutive days for too long. Aim to have days off running and go for brisk walks instead on those days, running every day doesn`t suit everyone. Using a gym to develop leg strength will help, but always do plenty of stretching. Weight training on the legs without adequate stretching can lead to muscle tightness, which is the exact opposite of what you want.
At 29 you've got lots of years ahead. It's worth building up gradually at this stage rather than trying to rush it in a fit of enthusiasm. Think seriously about gait analysis; this requires someone qualified who knows what they're talking about rather than some guy in a running shop who's had a bit of training. Orthotic supports and correct shoes can help to minimise the risk of injuries/problems and ideally should be used as a preventative measure rather than a remedy after damage has been done. Specific weaknesses in the legs can be identified and addressed by correct training/gym work, I`m convinced this has a role in avoiding injuries. In my own case I think I was always weak in the thighs relative to lower leg strength; I think this placed undue stress on my lower legs and lead to injuries. Loss of flexibility owing to calf/Achilles damage exacerbated the problem and created a vicious circle, I ended up with a torn Achilles at the age of 26 and was advised not to run again. Needless to say I ignored the advice, eventually I ended up with the same injury in the other leg and countless problems with calf muscle strains/pulls over the years.
Paul
Last edited by walkerwek1958; 25th June 2018 at 14:13.
Very detailed post, thank you for taking the time to post thatAs an ex-runner, I was blighted by lower leg injuries/problems from my early 20s, probably caused by doing lots of hard training aged 13-17 when I ran at club level and showed a lot of promise (.....I could've been a contender
My strong advice is to use good shoes that offer plenty of cushioning. Don`t continue using them once the cushioning's become compressed; this happens with some shoes long before the soles get worn out, and you don`t notice it. Keep a fresh pair for running on roads and use the older pairs on soft ground to wear them up.
Always do lots of stretching. Achilles tendons and calf muscles need looking after, stretch them well to keep them supple and minimise risk of injury.
Don`t build up the mileage too quickly, that's a sure-fire way to get injured. Until your weight has reached something close to ideal for your size I advise against trying to do too much or aiming to run 10K or half-marathons. Give your body longer to adapt; carrying excess weight increases the stress on your legs. Keep the mileage down until the weight's off.
Avoid chronic fatigue in the muscles. This happens with running on consecutive days for too long. Aim to have days off running and go for brisk walks instead on those days, running every day doesn`t suit everyone. Using a gym to develop leg strength will help, but always do plenty of stretching. Weight training on the legs without adequate stretching can lead to muscle tightness, which is the exact opposite of what you want.
At 29 you've got lots of years ahead. It's worth building up gradually at this stage rather than trying to rush it in a fit of enthusiasm. Think seriously about gait analysis; this requires someone qualified who knows what they're talking about rather than some guy in a running shop who's had a bit of training. Orthotic supports and correct shoes can help to minimise the risk of injuries/problems and ideally should be used as a preventative measure rather than a remedy after damage has been done. Specific weaknesses in the legs can be identified and addressed by correct training/gym work, I`m convinced this has a role in avoiding injuries. In my own case I think I was always weak in the thighs relative to lower leg strength; I think this placed undue stress on my lower legs and lead to injuries. Loss of flexibility owing to calf/Achilles damage exacerbated the problem and created a vicious circle, I ended up with a torn Achilles at the age of 26 and was advised not to run again. Needless to say I ignored the advice, eventually I ended up with the same injury in the other leg and countless problems with calf muscle strains/pulls over the years.
Paul
This is great advice by WalkerW
I'm 28 and run 6 days a week - looking to improve my current marathon time of 3:10 so that I can one day get <3
As you have said, it becomes more and more difficult to trim those seconds off. My small pieces of advice would be
1) don't neglect easy miles - slow miles are fantastic for cardiovascular efficency and form improvements
2) always listen to your body, but also challenge your brain. Get to know the difference between being a little tired and exhausted. You can run if you are a little tired
3) set yearly mileage targets and race times. It helps foster longer term vision and aspirations
4) a running blog has really helped me (mine is on insta @berlinrunning)
5) track workouts are a great way to build speed. Try 800s with a 200m jog. You should be able to do your race 5k time doing this workout.
Drop me a pm if you want to chat more. I love running and took my half marathon from 1:47 to 1:27 in 3.5 years
Sent from my SM-G950F using TZ-UK mobile app
This is great advice by WalkerW
I'm 28 and run 6 days a week - looking to improve my current marathon time of 3:10 so that I can one day get <3
As you have said, it becomes more and more difficult to trim those seconds off. My small pieces of advice would be
1) don't neglect easy miles - slow miles are fantastic for cardiovascular efficency and form improvements
2) always listen to your body, but also challenge your brain. Get to know the difference between being a little tired and exhausted. You can run if you are a little tired
3) set yearly mileage targets and race times. It helps foster longer term vision and aspirations
4) a running blog has really helped me (mine is on insta @berlinrunning)
5) track workouts are a great way to build speed. Try 800s with a 200m jog. You should be able to do your race 5k time doing this workout.
Drop me a pm if you want to chat more. I love running and took my half marathon from 1:47 to 1:27 in 3.5 years
Sent from my SM-G950F using TZ-UK mobile app
Great advice, thank you for that!
Pick yourself up a copy of this one - it's a bible for runners and is well respected on running forum boards.
https://www.worldofbooks.com/the-com...iABEgLOG_D_BwE
Thanks for that, just ordered a copy. As an engineer I’m always interested in technical elements of anything so I’m sure I will enjoy
8k run planned for tomorrow morning early before the temperature gets up too high
Nice one! I hope the book proves to be as useful to you as it was for me. Something's will seem counterintuitive, but the dividends are huge!
It arrived today (joys of Amazon Prime) - I didn’t realise just how much information was in there, it’s over 650 pages!
Did the 8k at 5am this morning and it felt good at 5.30/km pace. Another run like this or a bit longer at the weekend planned
Started again nearly two years ago after a short break of 21 years. Doing around 120- 140 miles per month, and really enjoying it. However, last time it was all on road, now it is as much trail and cross country as I can.
I've been running for over 15 years now....I should really stop and rest a while!!!
Seriously though I have been a runner for over 15 years and have had it all pretty much over that time, the ups and downs.
I can't really add anything that hasn't already been wisely said other than the following:-
Consistency!
try to establish and maintain a consistency in your running schedule.
I make great progress when I maintain consistency but whenever I have slacked off or started missing runs for any significant time I end up getting injured in some way.
A stop-start or on/off approach to fitness in general will not offer you anywhere near the benefits of consistent training and will likely ensure you pick up various injuries from starting from "cold" every time you try to pick it up again.
I'm not saying don't rest, in fact resting is a vital as the workouts themselves but try and avoid long and regular phases of inactivity.
Another word of advice is to build up and maintain your core strength (abdominal and back etc. as this will help your running posture and gait thus helping you run more efficiently and thus effectively and help stave of tiredness a little.
If you run awkwardly you will naturally tire more easily.
Motivation?
The hardest part of any run is getting out the door!
It's easy to remain motivated when the sun is shining, the birds are singing and all's well in your world but it can be much more difficult in the cold, dark and often wet winter months and when life's problems bombard you in an attempt to make you "skip it today".
In my experience any problems will look much better after a good workout, having cleared out the cobwebs and pumped you full of endorphins!
If you find yourself in danger of talking yourself out of it then don't think, just do.
I often just get in, get changed and get out as quickly as possible, not giving myself time to talk myself out of it (or my wife to do so!)
Prioritise your runs highly!
Life can throw all sorts of day to day stuff at you and even your spouse will try and talk you out of it sometimes "Can't you skip it as my Mum's coming round" or "I wanted to pop out to.... so can't you go tomorrow" or even "I don't want to wait till then to eat"?
Tomorrow all too often never comes either as there's always something else.
I'm not saying don't be flexible but do yourself a favour and place your running (and thus your well being) high on your list.
Go shopping on a rest day.
Offer to take her Mum with you on a run and if she declines then suggest you'll only be 30 minutes to an hour and her Mum likely stays for around 4 hours anyway!
Get used to eating later and suggest that on run nights she eats without you!
It's all too easy to make your runs collateral damage in a busy week but stick to your guns and it will reward you.
Enjoy it!
It's hard work but it's also great fun, especially if you run with a buddy or even better join a local running club/group.
When I joined a club my running came on in huge leaps and bounds and I made new friends to.
Don't let it become a chore, enjoy the fresh air, sunshine, snow, even the rain and most of all the feeling of being fit, healthy and feeling so alive!
As for me, I'm currently laid up with yet another left side Achilles strain.
Even after resting a week (and the pain seemingly gone) I can only run about a mile or two before it flairs up again, so it looks like I'll need to rest for longer to avoid making it worse.
Meanwhile, until it heals, I try to keep active by using a cross trainer and doing a few weights etc.
You're young so it's a great time to start.
By the time your my age you'll be a lean mean running machine.
Neil.
Fantastic advice delivered in a great manner, thank you
Off to a spin class shortly as I really enjoy those as well so still attending those twice a week or so with 3 runs per week planned - will see how that goes for a while
Hi
23.26 Is very respectable…. I’ve been running for 5 years and was delighted when I got to 25 mins (I am a bit older - 45)
Do you have showers at work? I have a 5 and 7 km route and I get out 3 times a week, run and back at my desk within 45-50 mins
The tough bits are coming back from colds and injuries…. It take a while to get up to pace…. The lighter you are the faster you go to
It was horrible when I twisted my ankle playing football (was out for 4 months)
I travel with my work and always pack my running shoes as it’s a great way to see a city
Within reason. I remember in the late 80s auditing at the Plessey site in Fife in winter and we stayed at a guest house in Cowdenbeath, a town which resembled a LS Lowry painting with all the smoking chimneys. Anyway, went for a run and spent the rest of that night coughing up black coloured flem.
I only ran there the once.
If you do the Parkruns, and other ones occasionally, then another motivation is to keep looking yourself up in the Run Britain rankings https://www.runbritainrankings.com/
Then when you get to my age (65-69) I win my age group every week, and hold the record on a number of courses - despite being nearly 5 minutes slower over 5k than I was 25 years ago (the reason that I win is that there are only a couple of others as old as me still being daft enough to be running).
We only have a half hour lunch however I have considered running to work (about 8k) as I have colleagues that live near me so could drop me off in the evening
However I will likely stick with doing it early in the morning before work - I’m a morning person anyway so our running at circa 5, back around 6 and still in work for 7 assuming doing a circa 10k run
Longer runs I will do in the evening / weekend when I have more time
You are right about holidays, I’m off to Edinburgh at the end of July and am planning at least one run when I’m there
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That sounds grim!
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Great work still running and still running fast!
Ooof grim!!!
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