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I have only one that is kept in a case.
Just read this article ...which may be of interest to anyone with watches in their collection, from the 1920's to 1960's, with Radon-based paints on dial.....
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...ches-6gbkczzsk
"Families keeping Second World War wristwatches as mementos could be at “serious risk” of cancer because of the radiation they emit, according to research.
Collectors or families storing wristwatches from the 1920s to 1960s which used radium-based paints to make their dials glow in the dark could be absorbing dangerous doses of radiation.
Scientists from the University of Northampton and Kingston University have carried out the first work to determine just how harmful radioluminescent paint is when kept in the home.
The article is subscription only!
I have only one that is kept in a case.
Risk is not as great as some of the press make out.
As long as the lume is intact and the watch is not opened up.
When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........
Thar ye go..Originally Posted by Caruso
Families keeping Second World War wristwatches as mementos could be at “serious risk” of cancer because of the radiation they emit, according to research.Collectors or families storing wristwatches from the 1920s to 1960s which used radon-based paints to make their dials glow in the dark could be absorbing dangerous doses of radiation.
Scientists from the University of Northampton and Kingston University have carried out the first work to determine just how harmful radioluminescent paint is when kept in the home.
Radon exposure is the second leading cause of lung cancer deaths after smoking.
Scientists found a collection of 30 antique radium-dial watches gave rise to radon concentrations 134 times greater than the UK’s recommended “safe” level when kept in a space the size of a typical box room.
Three of the watches in poor condition individually produced radon concentrations — when kept in the same poorly ventilated room — well over the threshold where Public Health England would recommend treatment.
The authors, Dr Robin Crockett, of the University of Northampton, and Professor Gavin Gillmore, of Kingston University, warn these levels are high enough to be dangerous even in much larger spaces, such as whole houses. Dr Crockett said: “These results show that the radon emitted from individual watches can potentially pose a serious cancer risk. This is of concern because in addition to military watches being particularly prized by collectors, many individual radium-dial watches are kept as mementoes by ex-servicemen and their descendants.
“They have the potential to pose a significant health hazard to themselves and their families. Smokers are particularly at risk.”
We used to use an old watch with lume to demonstrate that Geiger Counters in the lab were working
My dad owned two watches in the period around the early 60s up to the mid 70s, I think. One a former MoD-watch that was issued to him when Dutch volunteer troops joined the British Army to defeat the Japanse. In the end, he took the watch home.
Fast forward to the early 60s: the company my father worked for was selected as a subcontractor to build the first nuclear power plant in the Netherlands: in Petten, NW of Amsterdam, close to the North Sea. THey had to work with a warning badge on their clothing and every evening, before going home, every person was checked with a Geiger-counter. One day the Geiger picked up some radiation near his left arm. Indeed the MoD watch! Long story short: he had to take the watch off and was not allowed to take it outside! I think it was destroyed. So, yes: mid 20th-century watches can contain radiation.
Menno
The only watch left was this 'old French diver's watch'... A Blancpain FF. That was lost during the maiden trip of his boat, somewhere north of Scotland in 70 or 71. The strap came off or undone and the watch fell overboard. "Oh well, it was just an old French watch. Nothing special" It was replaced by a... Seiko... and in 1973 a Speedmaster entered the limelight. I still have my dad's Speedy.
Not just watches.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-fife-34862223
maseman
I wear this alot, suspect a gigacounter would go pretty nuts.
I also understood it was low level risk to wear these watches, it's when the Watch is opened that the risk occurs, especially if any of the radium has flaked or there is associated dust from it.
That would make sense, inhaling the dust would be very bad news.
Here's a link to a more detailed report of the research that involved "a collection of 30 antique, radium-dial watches." If anyone thinks they have a problem, I'd suggest that they start off with some Positive ventilation and go on to assess the problem more fully, take advice and devise appropriate remedial measures.
This article...link...says:
The study was published as part of a recently released volume from the Geological Society entitled Radon, Health and Natural Hazards – the culmination of a five year global project funded by UNESCO, the International Union of Geological Sciences, and the International Geoscience Programme.
Follow that link to the Geological Society online publication and you cans see the contents...link...and see that it includes, on page 49-61:
Radon as an anthropogenic indoor air pollutant as exemplified by radium-dial watches and other uranium- and radium-containing artefacts
Robin G. M. Crockett and Gavin K. Gillmore
Geological Society, London, Special Publications, 451, 49-61, 9 December 2016
I managed to find that 2016 article online at this site, link, that allows you to download a pdf of the article itself...link. So if anyone's interested...
At least, I think that's the right one.
Last edited by PickleB; 15th June 2018 at 22:53. Reason: add final sentence
Agree 100%. total scare-mongering in my opinion. Inhaling the dust from the lume is a significant risk....but that's one for the repairers to worry about.
Reminds me about https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radium_Girls
Before we go through it again, have a read of the thread at this link Watch dials with radium.
Unfortunately a bigger problem appears to be the radon gas in that is continually produced by the radium decaying, regardless of the condition of the watch. Hence ventilation.
http://eprints.kingston.ac.uk/34851/...-34851-AAM.pdf
In case anyone is interested, I posted what I found out about the risks on MWR this morning.
I thought I’d find out how ‘doomed’ I would be if I did nothing, and I found this UK government information.
http://www.ukradon.org/information/risks.
At the UK DLA of 200 Bq/m3,
which some houses have naturally anyway, my lifetime risk of getting lung cancer is 1/190. At 800 my risk is 1/100. Which says to me, keep the watches in a ventilated area so that the levels don’t get up into the 1000’s which would make the risks much higher. The research suggested that a collection of watches could give rise to a level of 13,000 Bq/m3 in a hypothetical unventilated moderate sized bedroom that a collection might be kept in.
Seems easy enough to reduce the worry without selling everything off, and fine to keep wearing them from time to time. Worth doing something though.
Does this mean after this thread we will get an influx of cheap vintage Watches on SC?
I fancy something with some nice Patina to the lume plots.
:)
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Come Paul, you know you want a cool outfit for your next Radium service! :)
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This used to be enough alone to raise the level of risk
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I have a dozen radium watches and keep them safe under my bed...also 6ish pocketwatches close by...just bought noble and graff radium kills watch pouch and going for mri's on Monday for health issues...should I sue eBay and well known watch dealers? Beats ppi payouts!
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Well after reading this I have thrown all my old watches in the bin
Better to be safe than sorry!
Address please
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Seems the Times article goofed. The report isn’t about radiation, but Radon gas emissions from the decaying radium, eh?
Don't forget to check the ones stashed away in the garage!
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Link:
What is radon?
Radon is a colourless, odourless radioactive gas. It is formed by the radioactive decay of the small amounts of uranium that occur naturally in all rocks and soils.
Why is it a risk to our health?
Radioactive elements decay and emit radiation. Any exposure to this type of radiation is a risk to health - radiation is a form of energy and can cause damage in living tissues increasing the risk of cancer.
I am not getting this whole thing really.
Radium can decay to radon gas and alpha radiation
Radon itself also decays to create more alpha, and so on down the chain to lead.
But, the half life of Radium is massive, and that of Radon is very short, as are the half lives of the consequent products.
So, the rate of creation of Radon is very slow from Radium
and the rate of decay of radon (its destruction) is very fast.
And the main "hazard" that both produce are alpha radiation, which cannot really penetrate much at all.
So it seems sensible to keep watches in a large room ,and a ventialted one, or even wear it out and about, and all the risks are addressed.
To get their headline figure of over-dosage they had to keep 30 watches in an unventilated box room, conditions designed to create concentration.
Non-issue
Dave
Dave, that is pretty much it. Except according to the report it is only a non-issue if you do the ventilation thing. The radon does decay quite quickly to other radioactive substances, but it is produced continually by the radium. In a moderate sized bedroom with no regular ventilation even a handful of watches could build up to an equilibrium level that is dangerous over a period of time. That’s what I’ve been doing so I’m going to keep those ones somewhere else now.
If you are or have been a smoker, the radon is more dangerous as well. No idea why.
Yes, alpha particles can’t penetrate much but they are dangerous if the substance is ingested (radium dust) or inhaled (radon).
Ah, but a bedroom does have regular ventilation. Not mechanical, but open windows, doors open for substantial periods of the day, or in our case all the above plus leaky victorian sash windows. Do take the precaution, that's fine, but don't think you are replicating their test conditions, theirs is a long way beyond worse case scenario.
Agreed, the most dangerous. But no-one is eating their watch or keeping it close to them to beathe in its aura for significant periods.
This is the kind of thing that really needs to be considered carefully by vintage watch repairers that work with these things all the time at very short ranges from their mouth and nose. But by almost no-one else.
It's like watching the dentist peg it out of the room before he X-rays you. For you, in the chair, the risk is minimal because the exposure is incredibly infrequent. For the dentist, it could be several times every single working day and so the precaution is valid.
Dave
I agree, dust is only dangerous if the watch is opened.
I guess everyone can read the research and make their own minds up.
I'll try and add a little to that summary:
- Radium can decay to radon gas and alpha radiation
Yes it does...and that mobilises the radioactive material
- Radon itself also decays to create more alpha, and so on down the chain to lead
- But, the half life of Radium is massive, and that of Radon is very short, as are the half lives of the consequent products.
Have a look at Wiki for the half-lives and note that one is 22.3 years and the penultimate stage is also an alpha emitter...so where are these products when they decay? They tend to deposit themselves on surfaces (plate out is term sometimes used) where people may pick them up if they touch them
- So, the rate of creation of Radon is very slow from Radium
But continuous
- and the rate of decay of radon (its destruction) is very fast
But some of the radioactive daughter products are both longer lived and no longer gaseous
- And the main "hazard" that both produce are alpha radiation, which cannot really penetrate much at all
But if it's inside you (breathed as a gas or ingested as a solid from touching surfaces) it does massive damage in a the short distance it can penetrate. Externally, the skin has a dead layer to protect us, but internally the surfaces tend to be living tissue.
That's very true. Here are just a few of the many articles:
- Surface deposition of 222Rn decay products with and without enhanced air motion.
- Effect of plateout, air motion and dust removal on radon decay product concentration in a simulated residence.
- Deposition of radon progeny on indoor surfaces
Unfortunately those are in professional journals and not free to download (that I can see) and I don't think that they would be an easy read for the layman (myself included). However, Radium / Radon is a problem that shouldn't be ignored.
Is it a problem for the owners of watches? Possibly not if you don't have a lot of them boxed up or in a cupboard / safe where the decay products can accumulate. Probably not if you leave well alone and don't interfere with the solid radioactive material and leave it within the watch (but it will escape on it's own as a gas).
Be aware of the potential problem...and think about it, especially if you have children in the same environment. Then make up your own mind about what to do, or not to do.
I agree with you entirely. The research that you and others have found is extremely usefull. The next steps seem clear to me. Others feel differently.
My points are made to try and give a modicum of perspective here.
I fully acknowledge that this stuff is not without risk.
So putting radium dialled watches in a large, well ventilated room and only going in there once a year will give you a degree of protection from risk.
But it us likely that cutting barbecued and smoked food entirely from your diet will give you a greater degree of protection from risk.
So would becoming a vegetarian.
And never getting in your car again would give you many thousands of percent more risk mitigation than managing a vintage watch collection for radiation poisoning.
None of which I would do either.
We all make choices with risk every day. Some of them are bright, intelligent choices, some less so, and some downright pointless. And I am as guilty as anyone else of this.
I simply feel that, looking at the information above and the associated links, this is one risk I can certainly afford not to mitigate further.
Dave
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