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Thread: Double Red 1665 for £2-3k?

  1. #1
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Double Red 1665 for £2-3k?

    If only the internet wasn't around there could still be bargains Or perhaps not!!

    Looks quite an original watch with sharp lugs and the description of "off white painted markers" made me chuckle!

    What will it go for?

    EDIT - could be a wrong un??

    Last edited by murkeywaters; 2nd June 2018 at 11:12.

  2. #2
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    The auctioneer might be in for a surprise when it goes for just a little over the estimate.

    edit: i reckon it will got for north of 30k easily.
    Last edited by Bonesey; 2nd June 2018 at 10:27.

  3. #3
    Craftsman Exiztence's Avatar
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    I don't like the font on the case, perhaps someone else can chip in but I never seen that font stamped before. Neither the dial looks right to my eye, but can be mistaken...
    Last edited by Exiztence; 2nd June 2018 at 10:53.

  4. #4
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiztence View Post
    I don't like the font on the case, perhaps someone else can chip in but I never seen that font stamped before. Neither the dial looks right to my eye, but can be mistaken...
    You mean this font?


  5. #5
    Craftsman Exiztence's Avatar
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    Yea, it looks wrong to me, compared to:

  6. #6
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exiztence View Post
    Yea, it looks wrong to me, compared to:
    Lume dot looks wrong too or could have been replaced?

  7. #7
    Master
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    Well, itís up to£6k now. Then thereís a 23% premium. They arenít advertising it as a Rolex and put the onus on the bidder to check authenticity. I think you need to be in the know if youíre going to play for this one.

  8. #8
    Master
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    Toot.





    My friend Ed Delgado has the best reference site for these :

    www.drsd.com

    If you follow your nose you will find a detailed description of each recognised version of the DRSD dial.

    H
    Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 2nd June 2018 at 11:04.

  9. #9
    Craftsman Exiztence's Avatar
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    I think the whole watch is off, the case font, the hands are incorrect too, and looking at the dial I am pretty confident it's not genuine when comparing to other examples.

  10. #10
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    Itís such a minefield buying these old things.

    I imagine it happens a lot but seeing as replica cases can be bought off the Ďbay whatís stopping someone concocting a Watch up like this and approaching an auction house pretending to be totally unknowing of what they have. The old ďfound it in my dadís drawerĒ The auctioneer to approach would be one thatís not specialising in these and the description here would say that. Because of the internet a load of people see this Ďbarn findí and itís off...

  11. #11
    Journeyman Wolfman's Avatar
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    Looks like a cleverly aged fake, engraving is of a type used by Chinese copies and the insertís wrong too!!
    Any mention of the movement?

  12. #12
    Master
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    Bit of a wrongun.

  13. #13
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkeywaters View Post
    If only the internet wasn't around there could still be bargains!

    Looks quite an original watch with sharp lugs and the description of "off white painted markers" made me chuckle!

    What will it go for?
    Edit : If only the internet were not around, even more mugs could still find what they thought were bargains and weak auction houses might not be identified as such.

  14. #14
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    Fake

    Fake watch

    Lads FFS😀!

  15. #15
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    Edit : If only the internet were not around, even more mugs could still find what they thought were bargains and weak auction houses might not be identified as such.
    Very true - I got excited but the description did seem vague, either way it's scary such watches are in the open market and even worse UK auction houses are allowing people to be turned over..

    What do you think of the case back?


  16. #16
    Craftsman Exiztence's Avatar
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    It looks crude and fake compared to the original, the coronet looks different for sure.

  17. #17
    Rainy day so this thread could be fun! SWMBO works in an auction house & they would have serious thoughts about this.The estimate is quite laughable, a quick google would bring the real world into focus.
    No movement pic, Ďmarkedí Rolex etc on the dial, not described as one in the heading. If this was mine (very unlikely) Iíd want ĎRolex Submariner Double Redí screamed from the rooftops & a come buy me estimate of at least £10k!
    Must say, it is probably all above board and I am really just a bored, jaded, jealous, uninformed old cynic.
    I do have a, aíhem, curiosity, very similar to the listed item.........
    Iíll be on to my pic assistant.......

  18. #18
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkeywaters View Post

    What do you think of the case back?

    Consider the context and you wonít even need to look for the tells on that case-back.

    Should a 579xxxx case number watch have a straight or a curved ROLEX text?

    Should a 579xxxx case number watch have a red text dial?

    Yes, they are separate questions - there is a recognised range in which one may correctly find a red text 1665 dial with a curved ROLEX back....but this watch is not in that range.

    H

  19. #19
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    Consider the context and you won’t even need to look for the tells on that case-back.

    Should a 579xxxx case number watch have a straight or a curved ROLEX text?

    Should a 579xxxx case number watch have a red text dial?

    Yes, they are separate questions - there is a recognised range in which one may correctly find a red text 1665 dial with a curved ROLEX back....but this watch is not in that range.

    H
    Ah right, reason I asked is I know some fake watches have original parts to swing the sale.

    Vintage Rolex certainly isn't my forte but seeing this watch has certainly opened my eyes to how much a minefield it can be.

    If the hammer falls for some ludicrous price does it mean the watch owner and auction house has defrauded an innocent purchaser, or is it hard luck buyer you should have done your homework?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by murkeywaters View Post
    Ah right, reason I asked is I know some fake watches have original parts to swing the sale.

    Vintage Rolex certainly isn't my forte but seeing this watch has certainly opened my eyes to how much a minefield it can be.

    If the hammer falls for some ludicrous price does it mean the watch owner and auction house has defrauded an innocent purchaser, or is it hard luck buyer you should have done your homework?
    I personally think auctions should strictly be caveat emptor, as in the used car world and houses for that matter, but apparently nowadays, with distance selling regs or whatever, all the power is with the buyer, including on eBay.
    I regularly advise watches be turned away, not always Rolexís either for valuation/appraisal as there is a serious possibility of legal trouble all round should a wrong Ďun be hammered.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by murkeywaters View Post
    If the hammer falls for some ludicrous price does it mean the watch owner and auction house has defrauded an innocent purchaser, or is it hard luck buyer you should have done your homework?

    The auction house have been careful in their wording nowhere do they say it is a Rolex. They just accurately describe the markings. They could use the same wording for a £ 100 fake.
    Their own experts have probably figured it is 99.9% likely to be a franken.



    Mitch

  22. #22
    Trading Standards Suffolk here have been very clear, if ĎRolexí is visual on the dial, even if not described as such, and it isnít 100% genuine, even using the word ĎRolexí in further listing text, post catalogue or hammer, itís the house not the Ďinnocentí vendor whoís in trouble.
    In that event, I understand the unlucky/gullible/innocent/disappointed/chancer/buyer will get his money back once itís been established itís duff, and even that could not stop Rolex wanting to make an example of the house, should they want to send a message.
    Iím no copyright or criminal lawyer, so letís have someone who knows this stuff enlighten us.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by milwatch126 View Post
    Fake watch

    Lads FFS!
    Bang on itís a pile of pooh

  24. #24
    Master Pitch3110's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bongo View Post
    Trading Standards Suffolk here have been very clear, if ĎRolexí is visual on the dial, even if not described as such, and it isnít 100% genuine, even using the word ĎRolexí in further listing text, post catalogue or hammer, itís the house not the Ďinnocentí vendor whoís in trouble.
    In that event, I understand the unlucky/gullible/innocent/disappointed/chancer/buyer will get his money back once itís been established itís duff, and even that could not stop Rolex wanting to make an example of the house, should they want to send a message.
    Iím no copyright or criminal lawyer, so letís have someone who knows this stuff enlighten us.
    here goes bongo, as requested.




    delete your account

  25. #25
    Thanks Again mate, I really must sort this photo lark out now I'm getting back into the swing of things.

    £100 fakes(!) mentioned above, this cost a tenner at the car boot AND it had a new Bond nato on it!

  26. #26
    Master Mark020's Avatar
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    Auction houses and estimates. Strange combination. The know what they are selling and that it is a POS.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark020 View Post
    Auction houses and estimates. Strange combination. The know what they are selling and that it is a POS.
    If thats the case with this house, I hope they have good solicitors to hand as Rolex could wipe them out in one hit. The person who took this in over the counter could be looking for another job.

    Estimates & valuations are tricky (for all it's sins though, t'intanet does help) as you want to be realistic to secure the business but do not want to upset the seller, especially if there is an emotional attatchment to the item. It is all down to the calibre of the valuer and most do have extensive knowledge of 2 or 3 feilds but you can't expect know everything about everything. We all know the 'come & get me' guff but £2-3k for a DRSD is daft in the extreme.
    If the vendor was aware of what he had (if it was genuine) he would have just laughed & walked out toward his nearest AD.

  28. #28
    Master blackal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bongo View Post
    If thats the case with this house, I hope they have good solicitors to hand as Rolex could wipe them out in one hit. The person who took this in over the counter could be looking for another job.
    That seems a bit sensationalist ?

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by blackal View Post
    That seems a bit sensationalist ?
    Maybe but that first letter from Rolex/Trading Standards will certainly concentrate a manager's mind.

  30. #30
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Thing is bongo I have notifications from the Saleroom which deals with the online side of these small auction houses, Rolex are one of the notes I receive and every week there are obvious fake watches, some say Rolex style or words to that effect BUT they still list them for sale so I donít see any worries on there part unfortunately..

    Itís one thing selling a fake as a fake but another when watches like this are out there to catch someone out of a lot of money..


    Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app

  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by murkeywaters View Post
    Thing is bongo I have notifications from the Saleroom which deals with the online side of these small auction houses, Rolex are one of the notes I receive and every week there are obvious fake watches, some say Rolex style or words to that effect BUT they still list them for sale so I donít see any worries on there part unfortunately..

    Itís one thing selling a fake as a fake but another when watches like this are out there to catch someone out of a lot of money..


    Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app
    I take your point but small or large house, if unlucky enough to be targeted by the lawyers (it can happen) it can get silly. I know this from being on ther 'inside' so to speak.

    It is all about words, intentions, good or bad, copyright law, knowledge of sailing close to the legal wind and much more, of which people are paid a lot of money to know about.

    Your OP has inevitably drawn me to the whole 'fake' thing, which I know has been debated here many times. A trip round the web brings some incredible examples that are light years fron the sharp edged tinny monstrosities of yore, I even bought a quartz Sub in Tokyo in 1983, I felt like a millionare! The one's sold or touted with a clear intention to decieve a buyer/business for financial gain is a world away from a £10 bauble/toy. I enjoy mine for what it is and pretty sure if ever I was in the position to have a real one, the fact that it is also dependent on a 10p spring bar, it'd never be worn & live its life in a vault somewhere. I get the organised crime link about the manufacture and supply of fakes but personally I don't accept dodgy kettles are one of the worlds worst evils.

    I've been looking to snag a Newman Daytona clone/hommage of late, just for the buzz. Some are really nice for the money but held back by the awful logo's on the dial. Much like the argument for legalising drugs, to remove the criminal element, why not just let the hommage lot use the Rolex text/logo's & be done with it? It is strange that every detail save for some text is tolerated but that's copyright for you. Would that not btw, kill off the fake watch thing altogether?

    That said, if there was an Ed White Speedmaster available, up to the standards of some of the high end 'Subs' out there, I honestly don't know if I'd be able to bring myself to get and wear one!

  32. #32

  33. #33
    Master Zephyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David_D View Post
    I would say that's a fake. 😉😉

  34. #34
    Master
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    Auction house with the watch from OP has been contacted.

    "Draft Threaders" can read more.

  35. #35
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    Auction house with the watch from OP has been contacted.

    "Draft Threaders" can read more.
    Well done Haywood, just picked back up on this and read the contributions in DT..

    Well the watch is still at £6.5k with 6 bids and 64 watchers, hopefully your advice doesn't go unnoticed and it gets pulled before someone seriously gets defrauded..

    For the record here is the description with plenty of Rolex content -

    "A Gents automatic steel cased divers watch, the black dial having off white painted markers with outer seconds graduations and marked "ROLEX OYSTER PERPETUAL DATE" in white, " SEA-DWELLER SUBMARINER 2000" in red and again in white "2000 ft = 610m SUPERLATIVE CHRONOMETER OFFICIALLY CERTIFIED". At 6 oclock position dial marked "SWISS - T < 25". The Casebck is engraved with a coronet over words "ROLEX" and "ROLEX PATENT . GAS ESCAPE VALVE . OYSTER". In between the 6 oclock lugs is etched "STAINLESS STEEL 5790055" and in between the 12 oclock lugs is etched "REGISTERED DESIGN 1665". Bezel rotates in both directions and the winder is of the locking type being marked with coronet over 3 dots. Bezel is 39mm in diameter approx. Mounted on a used black leather strap."

  36. #36
    Master
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    This toot has now been bid up to £10,500 !

    Neither of my reports identifying the watch as incorrect and sent to the auction house, Humbert & Ellis Ltd, has enjoyed a response.

    Update: I have just called the auction house. Neither the MD Jonathan Humbert nor one of the "valuation team" was available to speak with me. Apparently they deal with messages on a first come, first served basis.

    My first message was sent through their website contact page just after 3pm on 4th June (and screen-grabbed).

    My second message was sent to their advertised email address at 11:22 on 5th June.
    Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 8th June 2018 at 11:24.

  37. #37
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    This toot has now been bid up to £10,500 !
    Well they have a 27% fee (inc VAT) so they are in for a 4 figure payout from this sale, add on top the sellers fees and that's perhaps the reason they are ignoring you Haywood!

    Its no different to those scroat's who tried to sell you a fake and made off in the white Mercedes, other than its glossed over by an auction house.

    Incidentally is it a full fake in every way or is there any original parts its built around??

  38. #38
    Grand Master JasonM's Avatar
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    Someone bid it up to 100k and then refuse to pay as itís a fake?
    Cheers..
    Jase

  39. #39
    Up to £10.5k now. Showed this to the manager at the mrs auction house and apart fro barge & pole, he doubts the manager there will have a good weekend.
    Maybe the ATG should get wind, watch news there spreads like wildfire........

  40. #40
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonM View Post
    Someone bid it up to 100k and then refuse to pay as itís a fake?
    That could work out bad for the bidder with an untold amount of hassle, I've always thought you bid - you win - it's yours no matter....

    Ebay works slightly different to this but the commitment should still be there.

  41. #41
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by murkeywaters View Post
    Incidentally is it a full fake in every way or is there any original parts its built around??
    We don’t have sufficient information to determine if every last component is toot. I would enjoy having the watch in hand and writing one of my comprehensive reports for court purposes!

    Sometimes one does see things so bad that an unhappy question arises: whether the seller is ridiculously incompetent or crooked.
    Last edited by Haywood_Milton; 9th June 2018 at 00:08.

  42. #42
    If anyone is minded towards entrapment, it would be interesting to see the auction house's reaction to the offer of 'a very similar watch' without mentioning authenticity etc.

    Sent from my VTR-L09 using TZ-UK mobile app

  43. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton View Post
    We donít have sufficient information to determine if every last component is toot. I would enjoy having the watch in hand and writing one of my comprehensive reports for court purposes!

    Sometimes one does see things so bad that an unhappy question arises: whether the seller is ridiculously incompetent or crooked.
    Does the firm have a twitter page? This often gains a swift response as it's viewable to the public.

  44. #44
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    I've just posted on their Facebook page but can't seem to see the post. I'll wait and see if they reply.

  45. #45
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave O'Sullivan View Post
    Does the firm have a twitter page? This often gains a swift response as it's viewable to the public.
    I barely use twitter and normally only as a follower, but I have just tweeted this :



    Is it visible to others? I can't seem to see it on their page, so is there something else I need to do?

    If it can be seen, what would add pressure? Others clicking to say they like it, or adding their own tweets?

    H

  46. #46
    Grand Master JasonM's Avatar
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    Local Trading Standards?
    Cheers..
    Jase

  47. #47
    Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave O'Sullivan View Post
    I've just posted on their Facebook page but can't seem to see the post. I'll wait and see if they reply.
    I've just posted on their Facebook page as well, but a pop-up box says that the people who manage the page will review the post before it is published.

    Hmmmm.

    Luckily, following your post, I took the precaution of screen-grabbing mine before submitting it, for the record.

    https://www.facebook.com/HumbertEllis/ shows neither at the moment.

    Now, what can we do (if anything) to make tweets show on https://twitter.com/HumbertEllisLtd ?

  48. #48
    Master murkeywaters's Avatar
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    Well it's up to £11k with 3 days to go and no sign of it being pulled, they have a thick skin for sure!

  49. #49
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    I never got a response from my Facebook question either.

    Some poor sod is going to get ripped off here :(

  50. #50
    Master
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    I told them

    Well I know quite a few of us have told them or at very least advised them?!?
    Why would they do this if like people have said they canít or shouldnít legally?
    Is it just down to the fact that the chances of getting caught are so low due to Rolex and the Police having better things to do? Surely they lose out in the long run though when the refund is requested?

    My old man bought a fake Rolex from auction once which was advertised as genuine?!? The auction house were great about it and speedy which lead me to believe it happens fairly regularly? Itís not the auction house fault for the most part but surely their ďspecialistsĒ should be there to protect the public from these scams otherwise why use the auctions?

    Auctions seem full of pawn stock, fakes and Franken watches which has meant Iíve stayed away for quite some years!
    Iíve only ever seen one thing go through which would fetch a pretty packet now and that was a Universal Tri Compax Moonphase with the black bezel and grain of rice bracelet that sold for £2700 I believe and that was only some 5 years ago I think??

    Chris

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