Authenticity check - Rolex?

[Nt016]

Hi guys,

I've been offered a cracking price on a Rolex Explorer second hand and am toying with the idea. Unfortunately the original papers are gone but it was previously bought from a certified Rolex dealer. I would really like to be sure that if i'm investing a fair chunk of cash, that the watch is original as the seller says.

The seller has offered a sale in an authorised 2nd hand rolex dealer - is there any other way of being certain about the watch? Could I request the serial and check it with Rolex? I am quite happy to send some photos to any Explorer experts here - this would be my first Rolex so dont want to get stung.

nt

[JasonM]

Rolex won't help you if you presented the serial number, it might be useful but certainly not conclusive to check it out online against numbers that have appeared on fakes. The only way to be really certain is to take the watch to Rolex and ask for a service quote or suchlike. Obviously difficult if you don't buy it first. Ive never heard of a authorised second hand Rolex dealer, but if they are really going to endorse the watch and stand up for it if there are issues then maybe thats a option, what would the dealer get out of it though?

[Haywood_Milton]

Hi guys,

I've been offered a cracking price on a Rolex Explorer second hand and am toying with the idea. Unfortunately the original papers are gone but it was previously bought from a certified Rolex dealer. I would really like to be sure that if i'm investing a fair chunk of cash, that the watch is original as the seller says.

The seller has offered a sale in an authorised 2nd hand rolex dealer - is there any other way of being certain about the watch? Could I request the serial and check it with Rolex? I am quite happy to send some photos to any Explorer experts here - this would be my first Rolex so dont want to get stung.

nt

You should post some pictures of the watch here, especially some focused close-ups of the dial.

How do you know it was bought from a "certified Rolex dealer?"

What IS a "certified Rolex dealer?" Do you mean a main agent? They often have no clue when it comes to determining if a secondhand watch is all correct.

Why should any dealer allow you to conduct private business on their premises? It happens occasionally but most of us think it a damned cheek that we are expected somehow to provide comfort to third parties for their private deal in the very premises and with the very expertise into which we have invested so much in order to...er...sell our own watches!

You cannot check the serial number with Rolex, no. That being the case, do you know the seller well enough (and can you be sure he will always have the resources) to rely on getting a refund IF it turns out to be stolen when you have it serviced or try to sell it yourself at some point in the future?

Private purchases, where you have neither sound confidence in the seller, his bona fides and resources, nor the ability to determine yourself whether the watch is all correct, are among the riskier ways of buying a secondhand Rolex.

Anyway, post the pics and I'll be among those who try to give you feedback.

H

[jameswrx]

I think alarm bells will ring with a lot of us with the words “Rolex” “cracking deal” & “no box or papers”

Just take care as there’s even been cases of people having a genuine example verified and the seller doing a switcharoo on them after.

Also make sure it’s a decent verifier as some of the clone movements are good enough that some people may assume they’re genuine. It was always the case a jeweller would pop the back off and see a poor clone with a plastic spacer, just make sure they don’t see a ‘Rolex movement’ without going in depth to look at the details. I’m sure a lot of fakes have been ‘verified’ by unknowing jewellers seeing a clone movement in there when they would expect to see something glaringly bad.

I was reading a thread the other day where the bloke got one verified at his local Watch place and wore it for 6 months. He went back in and the guy offered to give it a quick clean up for him (I thought this was sus) and came back out saying it was a fake. I think what’s more likely is the guy had verified it originally and learnt since of clone movements and taken this chance to re-check it. Of coarse the guy told him the seller must have swapped it but I’m of the opinion they may have got it past the guy originally as aparantly it was an exceptional fake.

[JGJG]

If I was in the OP’s position, I’d be buying new or from HM. I just don’t have the confidence in my ability, or that of my local AD, to spot a superfake.

[mjgerrard]

You should post some pictures of the watch here, especially some focused close-ups of the dial.

Why should any dealer allow you to conduct private business on their premises? It happens occasionally but most of us think it a damned cheek that we are expected somehow to provide comfort to third parties for their private deal in the very premises and with the very expertise into which we have invested so much in order to...er...sell our own watches!

H

A chap on a Facebook watch group I am in had his watch stolen at a face to face meet in a jewellers. Had box and very expensive Breguet Perpetual Calendar on the table and they had agreed that this was a public/safe place to do the trade. Chap grabbed the lot from the table and legged out of the door, never to be seen again! Completely understand that jewellers shouldn't allow people to conduct business in this manner because they should have nothing to do with a private sale.

Best place to trade is in a police station...

[Rbains0708]

The watch having papers doesn't guarantee authenticity because they can be faked aswell,I think the watch not having papers isn't the end of the world like some people on here make out but as always you buy the seller as much as you do the watch. Upload some pics to here for Haywood etc to inspect and have the watch taken to an independent jeweller for the back to be taken off and movement inspected. As regards the watch being stolen and checking serial number,unfortunately that's the risk you take in a private sale. Rolex won't check it and if it is stolen and you send it on for a service they will retain it.


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[hops]

Best place to trade is in a police station...

You’ve more chance of getting a ‘cracking deal’ on a Rolex than finding a Police Station that’s open!

[mjgerrard]

You’ve more chance of getting a ‘cracking deal’ on a Rolex than finding a Police Station that’s open!

Haha true!

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[anz3001]

I’m not sure I understand the logic behind AD’s or jewellers in general not wanting to help with private sales. I get it can’t be free but most are happy to give insurance valuations for a fee. Meet at jeweller (that you have faith in!) and pay for an insurance valuation, what’s wrong with that from the jewellers point of view?

[paskinner]

I still don't know what an 'authorised second-hand Rolex dealer is'. Authorised by whom? The only safe method I can think of, offhand, is to go to Rolex service and ask for a service estimate. If there's anything wrong, they will know.
But it's pretty laborious.

[stefmcd]

I suspect this means experienced used Rolex dealer.

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[jameswrx]

I’m not sure I understand the logic behind AD’s or jewellers in general not wanting to help with private sales. I get it can’t be free but most are happy to give insurance valuations for a fee. Meet at jeweller (that you have faith in!) and pay for an insurance valuation, what’s wrong with that from the jewellers point of view?

I can understand it.

Trouble these days (as mentioned above) is you could end up amidst a robbery, a switch or just getting it wrong for the sake of what? I see week long debates on Rolex ‘fake busters’ threads with self proclaimed ‘experts’ bickering over whether a Daytona is real or fake. What about when these fakes get to even better quality.

Most people seem to think it should be a free service or at least a token amount. I’ve seen people on TRF talk about it being a good thing for the AD like they’re going to get a load of business off them in the future if they help, yeah okey dokey. I’d rather not get involved in a private sale myself. And it’s kind of a bit of a mickey take too, especially if the AD is selling guaranteed, verified second hand Rolexes and you get someone in buying a second hand Rolex but wanting to use your store and staff expertise as a guarantee just to save a bit of money.

Can you imagine you had a shop and were selling used Rolex. Phone rings...

“hi, yeah I’m looking at a 2nd hand Rolex Explorer”
“Ok sir, yes we have one in the window”
“No, I mean I’ve found one elsewhere, some shady bloke, no box or papers, it’s really cheap”
“Riiiight”
“Can we come in and do the deal in the shop, get you to check it over, make sure it’s fine”
“Errr”

Can’t think of many other places this kind of thing would happen really. It’s like buying a car privately & meeting them at someone’s established car dealership and asking them to give it the once over.

[mtagrant]

Now that is something I did a number of years back :)
I bought a Boxster privately and before completing the purchase, had the seller take it to their local Porsche dealership for their 111 point check, and then bought a Porsche warranty. Saved me thousands compared to buying from the dealership with the same level of confidence in the car :)

Can’t think of many other places this kind of thing would happen really. It’s like buying a car privately & meeting them at someone’s established car dealership and asking them to give it the once over.

[100thmonkey]

If in doubt

http://www.thewatchregister.com


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[Nt016]

Thanks guys. Will post pics tomorrow!

[MrMater]

Now that is something I did a number of years back :)
I bought a Boxster privately and before completing the purchase, had the seller take it to their local Porsche dealership for their 111 point check, and then bought a Porsche warranty. Saved me thousands compared to buying from the dealership with the same level of confidence in the car :)

I was thinking the same. Fully understand that the experts like HM or Mike Wood would not give their expertise for free, that would be a damn cheek, but could this not be a chargeable service, particularly for a vintage piece like a 1680 or 1675?

This forum is a great resource and posting pictures to be checked is very useful (which saved me from a duff purchase not long ago). However, I’ve got my eye on a full set 1680 at the moment but wouldn’t feel comfortable about shelling out thousands without taking the watch for a second opinion from someone who really knows their stuff.

Once bitten, twice shy! Is there anywhere in the south/south east that would potentially offer this kind of service?

[Nt016]

Hi guys, here it is:

[Rbains0708]

If in doubt

http://www.thewatchregister.com


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Does anyone check watches using this?


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[100thmonkey]

Does anyone check watches using this?


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Yes a lot of the trade I know


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[Haywood_Milton]

Safergems / Checkmend Watch Register : has the closest links to all the UK's police forces and is part of the especially pro-active, industry-funded Safergems body which is as much about intelligence and catching the baddies as it is recovering any watches. They are working with me on the "Trip Advisor Twit ©."

Art Loss Register Watch Register : wider international coverage, probably a larger register now and more commercially run, for better or worse.

Significant players at both the above are working more closely together and I hope that data may effectively be fully shared in due course. It is my recently-adopted and current practice to check watches coming into our stores against both the above, at a cost of less than a fiver in total from memory.

The Rolex UK lost / missing register and any held by Rolex Geneva are accessible for the most part only by their main agents police and insurers, certainly not the secondhand trade or general public. I wrote an open letter in the trade press discussing this position, which I find insupportable, and suggesting ways forward. This involved making the Rolex list available at a cost of up to £10 a time to cover the cost of running same. I understand that at the time it was formally discussed at Rolex London, but then buried.

None of these lists can determine the authenticity of a watch.

H

[Nt016]

no comments on pics then?

[Euan Begbie]

A pic where the hands aren't hiding the text would be better

[Haywood_Milton]

no comments on pics then?

No patience for free assistance, then?

No answers to our earlier questions about your "certified Rolex dealer," then?

"Quid pro quo, Clarice....."

The images appear to show a genuine 16570 T with luminova dial, solid lugs and a 78790A solid end link Oysterlock bracelet with clasp code for February 2000. The box in which it is pictured is not correct for such a watch. The bracelet appears to have a little wear but the EZ-scratch bezel looks to be in decent condition.

It could of course be stolen and if this is a private sale then you have a very low chance of recovering your money should the watch be taken from you.

How much are you being asked for it? With what does it come? Does a warranty have any value to you?

H

[KavKav]

It is thoughtless to expect to walk into a watch dealers shop and expect them to fully appraise a watch purchased elsewhere and give a definitive answer on authenticity for free or for a nominal sum. Given the high quality of some fakes that are out there, this sort of investigation and evaluation needs time and time is money to a trader and whilst some have the appropriate expertise, I see no reason why it should be expected that such expertise should be available free or at low cost for someone who walks in the door and is very likely unknown.
If a watch is assessed incorrectly then a dealer is guaranteed a very irate call saying “Oi, you said this watch was genuine”! What dealer wants that hassle for a nominal assessment fee or in fact no fee at all given that when that particular watch goes back out of the door ‘post-assessment’ the authenticator has no control whatsoever over any ‘meddling’ that watch may subsequently be subjected to. What a minefield!!!

The song that “Validate this Rolex for me free of charge and put your name to your decision and one day I might come back wearing my No1 haggling boots and consider buying a watch from you” does have a certain hollowness to it.

[Nt016]

my appologies haywood... patience is a virtue and I'm not great with it!

the dealer where the sale would take place is a known Parisian Rolex 2nd hand dealer. I've been offered the watch for 3,8k€ which appears much cheaper than elsewhere.

[Haywood_Milton]

my appologies haywood... patience is a virtue and I'm not great with it!

the dealer where the sale would take place is a known Parisian Rolex 2nd hand dealer. I've been offered the watch for 3,8k€ which appears much cheaper than elsewhere.

I'd say that sounds cheap, but . . .

We still don't know what comes with the watch (that has been photographed in an incorrect box) or what the status of the seller is.

The Parisian above does not appear after all to be an "authorised" dealer. We cannot know how good an unauthorised one he is. Could he spot a watch with a renumbered case?

We still don't know what evidence there is to support the claim that the watch "was previously bought from a certified Rolex dealer." Was this "certification" as solid as the "authorisation" of the Parisian host turned out to be?

If it is £500 cheaper than the prevailing prices asked by most, why is that so?

If the watch turns out later to be stolen (and NO check of ANY lost / stolen register can guarantee this won't happen), how are you certain that the seller will have (a) the funds and (b) the inclination to refund you?

[SimonK]

Who is the Parisian dealer?

[Nt016]

Who is the Parisian dealer?

It would be Olivine Prestige...

SimonK - I found this via a French WIS forum

The price is cheaper as the op is in a hurry to buy a Sub instead... The more you say Haywood - the more I just dont want to buy - might just stick to my PAM instead

[SimonK]

Olivine is certainly a well-established, well-respected dealer, I often have a butcher's in the impressively-stocked windows.

I'm surprised at the price as his prices usually reflect the fact it's a bricks and mortar business with all the associated (crippling) overheads. He usually has high-end stuff, so perhaps he took this in p/x and he just wants it gone as it is not at the level of his usual stuff - Milsubs, Daytonas, 5513s, etc.

Anyway, I'd say the business is too well known and the owner too canny to offer a dodgy deal and risk the damaging social media fallout which would undoudtedly ensue.


Edit - I think I may have misunderstood the deal. Are you saying Olivine is the seller or a seller has offered to do the deal in Olivine's shop? If the latter, and Olivine will certify authenticity then I'd say you can trust in their conclusion.

[Haywood_Milton]

Olivine is certainly a well-established, well-respected dealer, I often have a butcher's in the impressively-stocked windows.

I'm surprised at the price as his prices usually reflect the fact it's a bricks and mortar business with all the associated (crippling) overheads. He usually has high-end stuff, so perhaps he took this in p/x and he just wants it gone as it is not at the level of his usual stuff - Milsubs, Daytonas, 5513s, etc.

Anyway, I'd say the business is too well known and the owner too canny to offer a dodgy deal and risk the damaging social media fallout which would undoudtedly ensue.


Edit - I think I may have misunderstood the deal. Are you saying Olivine is the seller or a seller has offered to do the deal in Olivine's shop? If the latter, and Olivine will certify authenticity then I'd say you can trust in their conclusion.

The logic of the thread so far would have Olivine as the host dealer, not the actual seller. Whole thing smells but it's hard work teasing information from the OP.

[SimonK]

My bet then (I'm in for a quid) is that someone wants a watch that Olivine has but said dealer doesn't want Explo II in p/x, or has offered a low dealer-level trade-in. So the seller's idea is that he collects the cash from his punter in Olivine's shop in order to make his own acquisition, offering the buyer some sense of security at the same time and thus slaughtering deux oiseaux with just a single pierre.

[thestore]

It would be Olivine Prestige...

SimonK - I found this via a French WIS forum

The price is cheaper as the op is in a hurry to buy a Sub instead... The more you say Haywood - the more I just dont want to buy - might just stick to my PAM instead

Out of interest are you looking to replace your PAM with this or add to the collection? Most PAMS are much nicer than this watch IMO :)

[SimonK]

Now that I've found the ad on a French forum, it all makes sense. The seller bought the watch from a well-known Montpellier-based dealer a few years ago. Presumably he bought it mail-order as he says he took it to Olivine to be tested and authenticated. He is now willing to do the deal in Olivine's shop as a guarantee to the buyer. The price is now listed as 3600 euros, which seems to me to be a pretty good deal and a pretty good arrangement all round, certailnly safer than many transactions would be.

Edit: and as for the wrong box, I'd sell that on Ebay for 100 euros, making the watch an even better deal.

[Nt016]

Out of interest are you looking to replace your PAM with this or add to the collection? Most PAMS are much nicer than this watch IMO :)

Nah :) this is to add to my Pam 510 - I got the Rolex itch and it needs scratched. Even if I decide at a later date that it's not for me, its still a solid investment?

[anz3001]

Now still don’t get it. If I want to buy a car, caravan, boat, house etc, I can pay for expert opinion.

I can get an insurance valuation from a jeweller.

How long would it take to assess a watch for authenticity? An hour to visually asses and remove the case back maybe? That’s not worth £100 to both buyer/seller and store owner?

[Haywood_Milton]

Now still don’t get it. If I want to buy a car, caravan, boat, house etc, I can pay for expert opinion.

I can get an insurance valuation from a jeweller.

How long would it take to assess a watch for authenticity? An hour to visually asses and remove the case back maybe? That’s not worth £100 to both buyer/seller and store owner?

Truly not, no.

An insurance valuation from a jeweller is in almost all cases pitifully inadequate in so far as demonstrating the degree of authenticity of a Rolex watch. I am close friends with two former, recent chairs of the UK's NAJ Institute of Registered Valuers (the UK trade body), I happen to employ two of their (very small) membership and we all agree that most valuers fall short on correct watch identification techniques, ability and experience.

Most valuers :

- will not remove a case back
- would not be able to identify crude re-numbering of cases or other parts
- do not understand the relevance of most Rolex numbering systems / patterns
- could not then determine if a model should be a particular mix of metal / have a diamond bezel etc.
- do not know what movement to expect in which model
- would not be able to identify the better, fake Rolex movements
- when tested, could not even find the lasered coronet in a Rolex glass
- would struggle to identify "after-market" bezels and dials
- will value watches on a New Replacement basis when it is not appropriate. Red Sub at NRV £6,250 anyone?
- have almost no awareness of the vintage market, and none of the level of detail that we might expect in terms of dial variations, value differences ("What is a Fat Four, Haywood?") and so on.

What good, then, an appraisal from all these valuers --- many of whom have all sorts of jewellery / gemmological qualifications and indeed may well work for brand main agents (who are often themselves hopeless, he writes, thinking of the 179178 with a fake movement and the "gold Breitling" / crudely-plated fake that were valued as if genuine by ADs local to me)?

It's not about the time spent doing it. There is significant risk in putting your name to a watch, which these sort of sums don't make commercially worthwhile. What if I did an "authenticity report" for an individual, who then jiggers around with the watch before selling it to someone else as a Rolex authenticated by Haywood Milton? No thanks, it ain't happening and certainly not for £100. I could spend that same time doing my own dealing and make much better money. In my experience the few people who do charge for "authenticating watches" generally fall far short of being able to identify a watch and its component parts correctly. If they could and really had the confidence in their knowledge, they would be busy doing something else...dealing, for their own, greater profit. For them, it's easier to charge a sap £100 for half a rotten job in which their failings usually won't be discovered --- and which they will simply disclaim if they are.

H

[bobbee]

Truly not, no.

An insurance valuation from a jeweller is in almost all cases pitifully inadequate in so far as demonstrating the degree of authenticity of a Rolex watch. I am close friends with two former, recent chairs of the UK's NAJ Institute of Registered Valuers (the UK trade body), I happen to employ two of their (very small) membership and we all agree that most valuers fall short on correct watch identification techniques, ability and experience.

Most valuers :

- will not remove a case back
- would not be able to identify crude re-numbering of cases or other parts
- do not understand the relevance of most Rolex numbering systems / patterns
- could not then determine if a model should be a particular mix of metal / have a diamond bezel etc.
- do not know what movement to expect in which model
- would not be able to identify the better, fake Rolex movements
- when tested, could not even find the lasered coronet in a Rolex glass
- would struggle to identify "after-market" bezels and dials
- will value watches on a New Replacement basis when it is not appropriate. Red Sub at NRV £6,250 anyone?
- have almost no awareness of the vintage market, and none of the level of detail that we might expect in terms of dial variations, value differences ("What is a Fat Four, Haywood?") and so on.

What good, then, an appraisal from all these valuers --- many of whom have all sorts of jewellery / gemmological qualifications and indeed may well work for brand main agents (who are often themselves hopeless, he writes, thinking of the 179178 with a fake movement and the "gold Breitling" / crudely-plated fake that were valued as if genuine by ADs local to me)?

It's not about the time spent doing it. There is significant risk in putting your name to a watch, which these sort of sums don't make commercially worthwhile. What if I did an "authenticity report" for an individual, who then jiggers around with the watch before selling it to someone else as a Rolex authenticated by Haywood Milton? No thanks, it ain't happening and certainly not for £100. I could spend that same time doing my own dealing and make much better money. In my experience the few people who do charge for "authenticating watches" generally fall far short of being able to identify a watch and its component parts correctly. If they could and really had the confidence in their knowledge, they would be busy doing something else...dealing, for their own, greater profit. For them, it's easier to charge a sap £100 for half a rotten job in which their failings usually won't be discovered --- and which they will simply disclaim if they are.

H

Have you seen the "Luxury Or Lie?" workshop class at the NAWCC?
Until recently it was hosted by Adam Harris, but for some reason () he was replaced by Jeff Hess, the co-author of 'Rolex, the best of times.'

This two day course charges $1200 to teach people how to spot fakes, and gets good reviews from trainees.
I can only say that this is a rip off to me, as how can someone with no prior experience suddenly become an expert on fakes? The great feedback from the attendees means nothing in reality.

Harris is well known at WUS on the Omega, Rolex, Breitling, Panerai and Tag Heueur fake spotting sub forums, but is known to get it wrong more often than right.
No wonder he was ousted.

[Haywood_Milton]

...the "Luxury Or Lie?" workshop class at the NAWCC...two day course charges $1200 to teach people how to spot fakes...
I can only say that this is a rip off to me, as how can someone with no prior experience suddenly become an expert on fakes? The great feedback from the attendees means nothing in reality.

Agreed! There are a number of these short courses, one also offered by Birmingham Assay Office. They may be fun and interesting, but in no way do they prepare anyone sufficiently for identifying fakes and fake parts.

It is well known that two former managers of Rolex main agents work for me. The more senior himself confirmed that it was perhaps only after a year working closely with me that he began to feel confident identifying correct bracelets, dials, movements, bracelets etc, to grasp the numbering systems and appreciate the sort of details to look for.

H

[Mick P]

As long as they got papers, it's the real thing, we all know that.

[Nt016]

just an update on this - bit the bullet, saw it & pulled the trigger yesterday. The watch is now away for servicing & will be with me in a few weeks!