Would be interesting to know the if those manufactures owed a lot had stock with P&C; for ages the site seemed to advertise stuff they never had in stock.
So what was their MO? Sell a watch you never have in stock -> order from supplier to pass to the buyer -> keep the geld and not pay the supplier? Balance on the thin line and honour enough deals to not be ditched as a business partner straight away and float for as long as possible? What's the point of the voluntary liquidation? Is the scum going to prison at some point or getting away with it?
Ouch. Some fairly serious sums owed to trade creditors there. What were those watch companies thinking?Originally Posted by Balance wheel
I have to say that I am very surprised that any manufacturer would give a reseller like this one such levels of credit (well, any credit at all) in today's world. Trade credit for physical items is surely going the way of the dodo for more and more small/medium reselling businesses.
Thoughts on some of the other creditors:-
"Broad Band Agencies", owed £2685.80. A quick Google does not enlighten. An advertising agency maybe? Anyone know?
"Gerald and Valerie Bordell". Oh dear, mum and dad (?) owed £15K.
"Federal Management Debt", owed £2553.57. This is a debt collection agency. I wonder if this is an earlier debt repayment agreement.
"National Westminster Bank plc", owed £12127.97. What, a bank with no personal guarantees/collateral ? Presumably they do have a personal guarantee or collateral somewhere.
"Think Outside The Box", owed £15000. Who/what in heavens is this? I've Googled but can't find anything that would fit. The sum of money suggests a lender of some sort but I can't see what it is.
I'm not very familiar with liquidation proceedings so does anyone know if customer creditors appear on a separate list?
Last edited by markrlondon; 2nd May 2020 at 00:18.
Yes we do. Or 'did' in my case.
I paid by PayPal and was already in dispute with P&C so have been refunded. I've informed the liquidators so have been removed from the list.
I've not bothered looking at their accounts recently, only the creditors list above, but I see nothing to suggest that their MO was anything unusually bad. They were buying in stock on credit terms (where they could get credit) and then selling the stock.
So what did for them? Well, barring any intentional mismanagement/fraud (and I should make clear that I see no evidence of any such thing) then I'd suspect that it's the usual things:
(1) Under-capitalisation, which leads into (2).
(2) The types of poor customer service that we've heard so much about in connection with them. Specifically these are (a) not taking on service work when they were apparently supposed to, (b) taking an excessive amount of time to provide refunds, and (c) claiming that watches were in stock when they were not.
All three of those customer service traits tend to suggest lack of adequate funding and thus trying to scrimp through with customer funds and trade creditors' funds.
As far as I am able to see here, there is no substantive evidence of a crime.
As for voluntary liquidation, the directors are obligated to cease trading when they know that the company cannot meet its financial commitments as they come due. If no more funds were available (i.e. no more loans, no more investment, no more extended credit terms, etc.) then it would seem that that point was reached so the directors (or director singular, if I remember correctly from when I last looked[1]) had to liquidate the company.
Footnote:-
1: https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...=1#post5192170
Last edited by markrlondon; 1st May 2020 at 21:18.
Thanks. Glad you got your money back.
And no doubt the debt that PP paid out to you has now been added to the sum owed to PP as a creditor of P&C. :-)
I think so yes, but also get some cash flow to buy in the stuff that works better (or...not!); because customers are often well meaning I reckon you can string someone along for a working month before refunding / trying to fob them off for longer (while holding their cash).
Thanks, very helpful and informative.
Though a key part is where under-capitalisation comes from, which is usually mismanagement / over-ambition.
Under-capitalisation is pretty much inevitable and near-permanent for most small/medium companies as far as I can see, especially but not exclusively ones reselling physical goods. Unless they can get significant and proper investor funding (e.g. very rich uncle, wealthy investor, VC, etc. who will need to fund in the millions nowadays so as to be able pay for pervasive marketing) then under-capitalisation is something that most businesses simply have to live with. Some succeed and are able to grow and trade out of it, some don't.
One could call this "mismanagement" or "over-ambition" but the truth, from what I've seen, is that for most people hoping to start a business it's a matter of going ahead and doing your best with whatever funds you can get (and thus likely coping with under-capitalisation) or not going ahead at all and just giving up. Everyone starting a business would like more capital funding. Ultimately it does come down to going with what you can get while you're young enough to try or not going at all.
My impression is that P&C came close (good customer culture awareness, social media engagement, initially at least) but failed on culturing an image of good customer service and on actually delivering.
Last edited by markrlondon; 1st May 2020 at 21:42.
Good, balanced explanation, Mark -- thanks.
Which I would define as mis-management. It's not just luck that defines successful new business and those that fail. Choices and decisions are made, and P&C have been operating during a time of unprecedented low interest rates, business rates, etc. So their choices got themselves into this position.
Very good summing-up, Mark.
Always lusted after a Hanhart Pioneer MK I. Years ago, when I first became interested, P&C seemed the place to go. Nice professional looking website backed up by a genuine watch enthusiast. Lots of interesting videos produced at one time (including a Hanhart factory tour). JB seemed like a really nice guy with a genuine passion for watches. Perhaps not being able to afford it turned out to be a blessing in disguise...
Still, you reap what you sow. The horror stories speak for themselves and there are no excuses. It's a real shame they couldn't get more of their act together. To all intents and purposes they should/could have been the first port of call for Hanhart, Sinn, Damasko etc.
There is no doubt that they started well, with a good presence and an impressive range.
I met them at Salon QP one year (forget when) and they were infectiously keen (if a bit blustery and condescending).
There were very few (if any) bad stories then.
But they cannot have managed it well.
They have been in place over a period when online watch dealing has done well, with rising prices on watches and accessories, and an ever greater ability for the smaller brands (that they specialised in) to get their message into the public and create demand. P&C themselves helped create that, and quite well. Their videos were pretty good, albeit sprinkled with a few innaccuracies.
So to have started so well, in such a benevolent environment, and ended up where they are, they must have lost focus at some stage.
How that manifested itself I cannot say.
It would seem that a lack of funding may be key (Mark's analysis looks about right), but poor inventory management could exhibit the same symptoms, as would poor supplier liaison.
It is a shame they are going, in the sense that it is to all of our advantages to have small to medium-sized sellers out there who can look out a little more for the individual client, and still have some clout with the makers.
It is less of a shame that an organisation that descended into such poor customer service levels is failing.
Dave
This is the kind of situation which I was involved with in my previous life, from the banking and finance perspective.
There is £10k owed to Barclaycard, which is likely to represent chargebacks, i.e. Barclaycard refunding customers who paid for goods with a credit card, with no goods having been received.
Mark's point about under-capitalisation is correct, and it seems that the owner's enthusiasm exceeded his funding - cash is king. This is not untypical of a small owner-run business, but ambition needs to be backed up with the ability to make good on promises. It's an easy trap to fall into. Similarly, the point about credit limits given by suppliers - while on the face of it some appear "generous", the actual credit limits are not shown, and the values owed to some suppliers may not have accrued in the normal course of business. Either the supplier could have voluntarily over-ridden the credit limit due to exceptional circumstances, or promises may not have been kept.
The timing of the loan/cash injection from Mr and Mrs Bordell would interest me - was it a loan to help set the business up, or a "desperation" loan to try to rescue it? In my experience, family money to help establish a business is not uncommon, but it's much less common to sell the family silver to try to save a sinking ship.
The above Creditors' list is a bit meaningless without the corresponding list of assets. In whatever form they may take. "Boundless enthusiasm" is not something to which a cash value can be ascribed, but the Creditors' list should not be viewed in isolation.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Excellent post, thanks.
I do think one of the sadder things is there is a market for a good UK online watch store that concentrates more on the less 'high street' brands; Sinn, Damasko Tutima, Orient. A kind of mix of seriouswatches.com and jura (but with a wider range of 'boutique' brands than Jura). But, I suppose Jura is the main UK spot now.
I agree with this.
I bought a few Damaskos from P&C over the past few years and never had a problem. I live in north London and visited their offices several times to collect my purchases. Everything seemed above board to me. They had two or three friendly members of staff plus the owner.
I had a Damasko sent back to the factory in Germany via P&C after I dropped it onto a marble floor and that went through smoothly too. The repair was done fairly quickly and was not that expensive.
If they were still in business I would not have a problem dealing with them based on my previous experiences, although of course I am aware of the negative reviews about them and that would certainly make me cautious.
Obviously something went wrong somewhere but I think their heart was in the right place. I don’t think they set out to be a dodgy operation.
Jack
Did they have a shop, or just "offices"?
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
I disagree. They were con artists with bad intentions from the start. No one can be that incompetent.
Just an office, with visits by appointment.
That’s ok, we can agree to disagree.
I bought about five watches from them over a period of about three years and spent about £12,000 in total, with monies paid up front in full for each individual watch. They never tried to con me.
Jack
You were lucky. The scum conned me and plenty of others over the years.
Maybe it’s because I do live near their offices and they knew I would be knocking on their door if I had a problem..!
An office, so not necessarily holding any stock, just relying on the manufacturer or UK importer being able to supply as and when orders were received.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Yes, pretty much. They did appear to have a few of their cheaper, more popular-selling watches in stock but basically it was an office where the marketing and admin took place.
They did have a couple of display showcases with lots of sample watches to look at and try on and copies of brochures for customers to take away.
Before I bought my first Damasko (a DC56 Si) I made contact with them via their website and asked if I could see one in the flesh. They invited me to their office and they had a DC56 as a display model. This is externally identical to the Si model so I was happy at that point to go ahead. For low volume watches like the DC56 Si they insisted on full payment up front at time of order rather than a deposit. I felt this was reasonable as Damasko make them to order. I paid them and they called me in to collect the watch about a month later.
After that I bought a few more watches from them and never had an issue.
I just feel it’s a pity that they let so many people down as I am a big fan of these micro-brands and they were one of the few outlets in the UK for some of the brands they carried.
Yes, agreed.
I'm not so sure. Surely these brands could and should be selling online themselves. By and large, I don't see the need for more middle men.
On the specific point of Orient though, this is a very established brand and, so far, they seem happy with how things are. If they wanted to go high street in the UK they could (being part of Seiko).
Another post from wus
Last edited by Balance wheel; 3rd May 2020 at 11:02.
A little light on "assets" then. Which raises a question or two.
A little digging revealed this report, from happier times:
http://hot100.watchpro.com/2015/07/j...s-page-cooper/
"Laser-sharp aftersales service".
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Ah, I was wondering before (#259) about the £15K owed to 'Think Outside The Box' and I think we might have the explanation here: "Sample stock to be returned", £15,000.
Does 'Think Outside The Box' specialise in providing display stock, or something like that?
Also I see that "Consumer Creditors" amounts to £36,224. That is a lot of customers' money being held for (a) items never to be delivered (that perhaps the director should have realised could never be delivered) and (b) refunds not paid out.
That's on top of the £10,046 owed to Barclaycard and £1333 owed to PayPal, where the customers will at least have got their money back.
It does look, as I suggested in #259, as if they were (perhaps unintentionally) using trade creditors' and customers' funds to try and keep the business going. Barring a massive pick up in trade or significant new investment, this sort of desperation tactic rarely ends well.
Last edited by markrlondon; 3rd May 2020 at 22:42.
“Retail Titans” indeed. And who does the prosthetic leg belong to?
Last edited by seabiscuit; 3rd May 2020 at 21:50.
That was my experience when buying a Laco off them as well. It actually arrived direct from Laco in the end, iirc.
And a Sinn strap. When it was time to buy a second Sinn strap I forked out the extra £20 or so to get it from Jura as they assured me they actually had it in stock.
Fake it until you make it.
There's no inherent crime in that, of course.
(But continuing to take money on the basis of delivering when you know that deliveries will almost certainly never be made might be a crime, not that proving any such misconduct would be feasible or even worth it financially.)
LOL!
Does anybody else think that this thread should be moved to a more private area of the Forum?
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Not really. All this information is in the public domain.
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/06679252
The Think outside the box?
Advertising if so.
It is, so far.
There's always a danger that somebody might say something defamatory, which might have consequences for Eddie and the poster.
I think that moving it away to a private area of the forum might be prudent.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Where did you get your law degree from?
No!
Leave it where you found it!
Until clicking on the link I had no idea what you were talking about.
Very funny 😁
Why do you ask?
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Late to this thread.
Never bought from them. Tried to once & the experience left a very bad taste in my mouth.
Andy
Wanted - Damasko DC57
Leave it here.
Anyone googling the names Danielle and Jonathan Bordell will be able to see what kind of people they might potentially be dealing with.
Thanks.
Made me smile.Offering a laser-sharp after-sales service
http://hot100.watchpro.com/2015/07/j...s-page-cooper/
I guess I was lucky that I actually received the one and only watch I ever ordered from them.
Luuuuurve that suit he's wearing.....
Very sad to see P&C go. I appreciate that some people on this thread have clearly had difficult experiences with them, but I know a lot of folk who thought they were brilliant and all of my interactions with Jonathan were first class. I can only speak from my own experience but I found him a genuine enthusiast, passionate about helping smaller watchmakers get established (and there are plenty who were a nightmare for him to work with, I know) and a generous host who was good company.
Maybe he was spending his creditors' money.
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