Breguet Marine tool mark damage to movement

[mjgerrard]

Dear TZ-UKers,

It was today that I rubbed my hands together with glee upon receiving my Breguet Marine 5817 blue dial, and it sure is a thing of beauty. However sadly the purchase has left me a little deflated and I'm looking for some advice.

- It's a 2007 watch, purchased from the USA and as it came with the bracelet I perceived it to be good value considering the duty and taxes I would have to pay to import. It certainly wasn't a "bargain", but a good deal.
- Described by the ebay seller as "Mint Condition", with no other real descriptions. It really did look great.
- The photo's looked great and while there were no macro shots of the movement, they looked good from the photos provided.
- I enquired about the service history of the watch, and the seller said there is no history with the watch but the watchmaker has checked it out and "it is fine".

Having received the watch, its in nice condition for a 2007 watch but there is a reasonable amount of tool marking across the bridges, and in some cases there is some marks to the anglage too. To me, what makes this watch so special is the hand finishing of the movement as well as all the other lovely bits, so to find it all a bit haphazardly buggered about with has left me pretty disappointed. The marks are visible to the naked eye and looks worse under a loupe.

Having emailed Breguet's boutique in London, they were kind enough to enquire about options:

"Hi Michael,

I’ve had a chat with our service centre, they do not refurbish the interior movement they will only replace the scratched bridges. I have been advised that this will be a costly process on top of the cost of a service."

With a service (Which to be fair I have budgeted for) at rough cost of £600, the bills will indeed soon start to stack up.

The seller has 1000's of sales and 100% feedback so I have reported the issue and requested from them what the next steps would be. Hopefully they will be cool about this, but they haven't as yet responded. I have not yet requested a return as I'm interested in a few options:

- Live with it, its only a watch anyway.

Not an ideal option, I'm sure you'd agree. But its sat in the house and its tempting me.

- Push for some partial refund to go towards reparation of the damage.

My preferred option, but my question is to you guys, whether we have an idea on how big a number the replacement bridges will be from Breguet? I would imagine that a chap hand finishing new bridges just for me, is going to be a grand.

As an alternative option, do we know any watch makers on the forum that would feel comfortable refinishing a little?

- Return the watch

If I do this, then does anyone have any advice on how to reclaim the taxes/duty back that I paid to FedEx?

Any advice and opinions welcomed!

Michael.

[PJ S]

Not sure how Brendan (webwatchmaker) feels about touching movement parts, probably needs to see the state first hand rather than photos and description, but it might be worth a bit of a chat.
Assuming it’s a case of no-go, and that Breguet know how to charge for the parts, then you’re left with trying to decide how much of a contribution to expect (full or partial, depending on whether you account for purchase price and age) or to simply reject it for a full refund.
On the basis of going with the latter, there’s been info posted here about getting refunds from HMRC, or you could probably find it easy enough searching online for it.

Did you compare the price with those on C24, within the EU, so as to save having to bother with VAT?
If the saving was more than the cost of a service, then you might want to hang on to it, and see what contribution you can negotiate with the seller.

[mjgerrard]

Not sure how Brendan feels about touching movement parts, probably needs to see the state first hand rather than photos and description, but it might be worth a bit of a chat.
Assuming it’s a case of no-go, and that Breguet know how to charge for the parts, then you’re left with trying to decide how much of a contribution to expect (full or partial, depending on whether you account for purchase price and age) or to simply reject it for a full refund.
On the basis of going with the latter, there’s been info posted here about getting refunds from HMRC, or you could probably find it easy enough searching online for it.

Did you compare the price with those on C24, within the EU, so as to save having to bother with VAT?
If the saving was more than the cost of a service, then you might want to hang on to it, and see what contribution you can negotiate with the seller.

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah as soon as i posted this I stumbled upon the right link for claiming back the duty. Uncle Google helped me out there.

The watch had box and papers, as well as the bracelet and came to a shade over £6500 all in. C24 prices are around that (and upward) for the rubber bracelet only and there are very few blue dial options. Quite a few questionable sellers out there too.

I would say yes, i have saved the cost of the service in buying how i have done, so its really the cost of the bridge work that will affect things. I might need to push the Breguet boutique chap a bit to get a firmer price but obviously he is a bit non comittal without seeing the watch, which is fair enough.

Ill see if i can get some pictures under a loupe.

M.

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[mjgerrard]

Just as a quick update, Breguet did come back to me, if anyone was interested:

I sent your request to our service centre and they have come back with the following.

Barrel bridge - £251.21 (Grey engraving)
Barrel bridge - £357.74 (Yellow engraving)
Train bridge - £277.33
Balance cock - £124.62

Total - £1010.90

[Bernard]

Just as a quick update, Breguet did come back to me, if anyone was interested:

I sent your request to our service centre and they have come back with the following.

Barrel bridge - £251.21 (Grey engraving)
Barrel bridge - £357.74 (Yellow engraving)
Train bridge - £277.33
Balance cock - £124.62

Total - £1010.90

Why this total? He would only need 1 barrel bridge I suppose?

[mjgerrard]

Why this total? He would only need 1 barrel bridge I suppose?

Indeed the maths are a bit questionable.

Latest update, anyone guess the problem here?

20180329_210038.jpg

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[mjgerrard]

EDIT: I have requested a return. It's just not to be, sadly.

========
After these costs came back, the seller offered $650 and I was happy with this. I decided to set the time and wear the watch this evening and when setting the time, was bemused to find hand misalignment.

Do we now think that I am flogging a dead horse here? If I were to send it to Breguet for a standard service, are these "problems" likely to be extra costs on top of the service, or included?

Sigh.

[rincewind]

I’m no watchmaker but I’d imagine they’d line the hands up when they put them back on


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[mjgerrard]

I’m no watchmaker but I’d imagine they’d line the hands up when they put them back on


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Something wrong with the arbor possibly? I advanced the time forward several days and the misalignment didn't get any worse.

[Carl.1]

Previously owned watches will always be an issue. It is upsetting that the seller calls a watch mint where it clearly was not. On a brighter side, when it comes back from service and replacement of parts you will have a watch that you can have confidence in and that is now truly yours.
It is a shame though that you have to go through all this. I presume that whoever serviced the watch failed to align the hands as well as be heavy handed with the internals.

[ped]

Send it back (edit - I see you have)

Even if you ended up having it repaired, the whole experience has already been soured and you’ll never get that feeling back, unfortunately.

Move on and keep looking.

[PJ S]

Hand misalignment is something that any truly competent watch repairer shouldn’t fall foul of – the crown is turned until the date just switches over, then both hour and minute hands are fitted at 12 o’clock position, before the seconds hand, if it’s a central seconds 3-hander.
Allowing for any slop, the changeover should happen within a minute either side of 12.
From the image provided, whomever was the last person to touch it has been remiss in double checking before fully pressing the hands on.

[mjgerrard]

Hand misalignment is something that any truly competent watch repairer shouldn’t fall foul of – the crown is turned until the date just switches over, then both hour and minute hands are fitted at 12 o’clock position, before the seconds hand, if it’s a central seconds 3-hander.
Allowing for any slop, the changeover should happen within a minute either side of 12.
From the image provided, whomever was the last person to touch it has been remiss in double checking before fully pressing the hands on.

Interestingly, the date change happens at 1am when forwarding the time manually!

[mjgerrard]

Thoughts on the date not being central? Its almost like the whole movement is rotated but I cant see how that's possible really.

[PJ S]

Interestingly, the date change happens at 1am when forwarding the time manually!

Thoughts on the date not being central? Its almost like the whole movement is rotated but I cant see how that's possible really.

Sloppy work by all accounts.
Sounds like the dial feet are not a close tolerance fit on the base plate, allowing for some fine manipulation within the case – I thought I noticed that in the photo.
I think you’re right to reject this one, as much as it’s a bit of a hassle – the right one will present itself in due course, or you can spend the extra you were almost prepared to on this one, on one of those available on C24 or eBay, etc.
Maybe find out the cost of the bracelet through any of the ADs (should be able to get a discount as they’re simply supplying it, nothing more), then you can decide whether buying a blue one on rubber and adding the bracelet is just as expensive as having this one sorted – even if you push for a higher contribution, $800, as an example.

Of course, you’ll be looking for one that’s newer, or has had a service relatively recently/haggle (most of) the service cost off the asking price.

[Webwatchmaker]

Hand and calendar misalignment are things a young apprentice should know to get right.
I would love to see a photo of the plates. Sounds like 's bit of a bodge.
I would get a refund for sure.

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[Omegamanic]

If the bits you can see are bad enough and expensive to rectify, then taking into account the bits you can't...

[mjgerrard]

PJs had made some good points though that ultimately come down to cost. Theres a nice on on SC at the moment and at a nice price (the silver dial was my second choice) but it looks like a bracelet is about 2 grand. At the moment its looking cheaper overall to keep and fix, especially if the seller throws a few more quid in.

They havent responded on the request to return yet - likely due to the holidays.

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[mjgerrard]

Finally. 2 pics for some consideration.

With the light, it does potentially look like oil smeared across the bridge.

I have decided to keep the watch and will just pony up for the costs. Ive been wearing the watch for a few days despite the dodgy timekeeping (a decent excuse for being late for meetings!) and frankly im in love despite its flaws.20180406_205044.jpg20180406_205013.jpg

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[mjgerrard]

Other bridges.20180406_204951.jpg

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[village]

'Mint' is vastly overused and every EBay seller and his dog seems to employ the term. Also,saying the watch has no service history but that 'some bloke' has taken a look and everything is fine means absolutely nothing as evidenced by the issues with your watch. You may well like the watch but bearing in mind the faults that are already evident,what are the chances of discovering further issues? Personally I would have sent it straight back.

[J J Carter]

I would raise a SNAD

[mjgerrard]

Hey all!

Just posting a closure to this thread as I have now received the way h back from Breguet after nearly 3 months.

Just as a reminder the watch had:

Scratches across all bridges
Incorrect hand placement
The watch was magnetized and stopping
Unsure if water proof

And after the service and bridges that were made to replace the existing ones I couldn't be happier. Breguet in the UK did a top job and it's now looking super smart on its new blue rubber strap!

The deployant buckle is pretty good but at the princely sum of 400 quid, plus the strap at a further 100 quid, took the total cost of everything to just shy of 2 grand. Fairly ridiculous and shows just what a money pit this hobby of ours can be! Though overall with the ebay partial refund I've got a fully serviced watch with both the rubber strap and bracelet at a compatible cost to finding one in the UK. Lesson learnt on getting more detailed pictures prior to purchase, including movement shots.

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[alfat33]

Good to hear. At least you got out of it without too much financial pain and have a lovely watch.

[ddm27]

On the plus side, the watch is utterly beautiful - congratulations.

[Carl.1]

And by keeping it you now have a really nice watch. A really nice watch. Good choice.

[mjgerrard]

Good to hear. At least you got out of it without too much financial pain and have a lovely watch.

Thanks very much!

Now that I have had it on the wrist for a week or so I just know it's a keeper. A couple of observations and points:

- Blown away by the quality of the rubber strap. Most would balk at the cost of £110 for it but considering a Rubber B or Everest is double the cost it does put them to shame in terms of quality/value for money.
- Now that I have time to appreciate the movement without all the scratches, I'd really implore anyone considering a PP Aquanaut to give the Marine some serious thought. The anglage of bridges, black polishing of screw heads, and the joy that is the guilloche (Rotor and dial of course) really means you're getting comparable (if not better) value than the PP. The big decider for me was the "big date" complication which has that extra little HH Complication without making the dial design too cluttered. Considering of course they can be had for somewhere between £5k and £8.5k at the top end on bracelet it's one of the biggest bargains in high horology.
- As a downside, there is no such thing as a "half link" for the bracelet from Breguet so for me the bracelet is either slightly too loose or too tight. Anyone looking for one should definitely try it on for size and consider that paying extra for the bracelet might not be worth it.
- The coined edges are a bit of a magnet for little dints, so something to get photos of or take a look in person if you're really anal about that kind of thing.

M.

[tz-uk73]

On the plus side, the watch is utterly beautiful - congratulations.

Well said. It's a watch you wanted and it's as good as you'll ever find so we'll done on persevering. You deserve that watch.

[Stuno1]

What does this look like on your wrist and how big is your wrist? Beauty of a watch.

[mjgerrard]

It's just about perfect for me at a 17.5cm wrist. I think it wears quite large, but funnily enough my other half saw it for the first time and asked "why have you got such a girly sized watch?".

It's 39mm apparently.

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[mjgerrard]

Excuse the yeti arms by the way!

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[Stuno1]

It's just about perfect for me at a 17.5cm wrist. I think it wears quite large, but funnily enough my other half saw it for the first time and asked "why have you got such a girly sized watch?".

It's 39mm apparently.

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Cheers chap. Same size wrist as me. I was looking at the GMT which is bigger than that and looking at that pic it would be too big for me.

[mjgerrard]

Cheers chap. Same size wrist as me. I was looking at the GMT which is bigger than that and looking at that pic it would be too big for me.

I'd go try it if you can mate. The lugs on this are long but if the GMT is larger I suspect the lug length may be shorter. It's hard to look engage your brain when looking at the Marine and think "sport watch" which I suppose doesn't matter being a bit oversized. It still works well though.

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[Motman]

Nice watch. Nearly bought this one myself a year or so ago when looking for a 'big birthday' watch.



In the end I plumped for a Speedmaster ‘57 Co-Axial. I decided I wouldn’t get the use out of the Breguet although it was super thin. About a third of the size of the Speedmaster!

[mjgerrard]

Nice watch. Nearly bought this one myself a year or so ago when looking for a 'big birthday' watch.



In the end I plumped for a Speedmaster ‘57 Co-Axial. I decided I wouldn’t get the use out of the Breguet although it was super thin. About a third of the size of the Speedmaster!

I'd say that was a good choice in the end then - the '57 is a favourite of mine and it'll certainly hold value better than the Breguet! Nevertheless I also figured that the Marine was a good compromise as a dress watch - it's a little on the chunky side but throw a leather strap on it and it'd be up to the job I should think. I like you, wouldn't get the use out of the Breguet Classique - despite how lovely it is. I'm a T-shirt and shorts kinda guy 99% of the time.

[Pelicans]

Great looking watch. You must be pleased that things have worked out in the end.

[mjgerrard]

Great looking watch. You must be pleased that things have worked out in the end.

Very much so, thanks! Could have been a lot worse...

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[The_Perfect_Sandwich]

That is a gorgeous thing


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