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Thread: Dealers buying on SC and flogging on at profit

  1. #51
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    As I’ve said before, if every seller edited their original post with the name of the buyer and the selling price, SC would become a lot more transparent.

  2. #52
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    I'm a firm believer that if you bought it for a fair market price (whether that's 6 months or 6 years ago, Rolex or not) then feel free to sell it for whatever the fair market price is now. Bargains should be passed on at bargain prices. Unfortunately it's got to the point now where next time I pass on a forum bargain I'll be leaving it 24 hours before I pick a trustworthy buyer rather than it going to "fastest finger first".

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    As I’ve said before, if every seller edited their original post with the name of the buyer and the selling price, SC would become a lot more transparent.
    +1. I might start doing that.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    As I’ve said before, if every seller edited their original post with the name of the buyer and the selling price, SC would become a lot more transparent.
    Yep, I’m going to start doing this. Good thinking.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    As I’ve said before, if every seller edited their original post with the name of the buyer and the selling price, SC would become a lot more transparent.
    Decent idea, would be really good if buyer and seller could post a link to their H&V Feedback as well when concluded.

  6. #56
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    interesting thread

    Ive bought a couple on here but cannot yet sell.

    When I can I will list here first as despite dealers,hoovers or hoover dealers its still better than ebay and if you pass on a watch to the genuine enthusiasts most of the time then that is better than not at all.
    Last edited by wits; 26th March 2018 at 19:47. Reason: mispell

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    As I’ve said before, if every seller edited their original post with the name of the buyer and the selling price, SC would become a lot more transparent.
    Thought you were not supposed to remove the sale price anyway?

    Problem is it doesn’t stop them buying here and selling on eBay at a nice little mark up.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by robert75 View Post
    Thought you were not supposed to remove the sale price anyway?

    Problem is it doesn’t stop them buying here and selling on eBay at a nice little mark up.
    That’s the asking price.

    It wouldn’t stop it initially but our resident sleuths would soon spot the dealers and out them. Lowballers would also be quickly identified.

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    That’s the asking price.

    It wouldn’t stop it initially but our resident sleuths would soon spot the dealers and out them. Lowballers would also be quickly identified.
    Sorry I assumed that was the final price it went for, in that case a fair comment.

    Perhaps a more active use of H&V and less fear of what “Forum stalwarts” May think would be a simple solution? The most recent 3 dealers were amongst the most active on the forum and most aggressive in “identifying dealers”

  10. #60
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    You couldn’t fault the 2 Rolex sellers currently on SC selling to whoever they wanted for whatever price they wanted with no remorse.
    The amount of trolling they are having to put up with is unbelievable.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    As I’ve said before, if every seller edited their original post with the name of the buyer and the selling price, SC would become a lot more transparent.
    I like that solution, nobody should be offended by their name and buying price posted.

  12. #62
    Perhaps i miss understood the Nash Equilibrium of SC.

    I thought the intent of SC was for watch lovers to sell their watches, at about the same price offered to them for their watch by their local or regional dealer.

    Thereby allowing the watch loving TZ buyer to purchase the watch at an effective discount (TZ price = dealers target price - dealers premium - dealers overheads).

    So a sort of lower cost first dibs for the enthusiast before it heads off to trade?

    Am i way off?
    Last edited by timc; 28th March 2018 at 00:22.

  13. #63
    What Joy.

  14. #64
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    Agreed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    As I’ve said before, if every seller edited their original post with the name of the buyer and the selling price, SC would become a lot more transparent.

    I don’t see the problem with this?
    I for one would be willing to give it a go if it keeps the forum pieces circulating??

    With regards to the whole outed dealers selling on SC I for one have ended up with quite a few I presume from these guys at great prices so in that sense the dealers can add a decent priced watch to the forum, make their money and pay the 10% contribution?!?! The issue comes when it’s not just about selling us great watches a good prices but about taking watches off us at great prices only to sell them on at a profit thus making money out of the original ethos behind SC????
    I for one hope that the dealers who have admitted to being so, stay and add stock to the TZ masses but it seems obvious to me that it’s the smaller guys out for a quick buck, they perceive an eventual free watch once they have sold on enough at a profit?? It’s these smaller let’s say part time dealers who are maybe the problem???

    Chris

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by timc View Post
    Perhaps i miss understood the Nash Equilibrium of SC.

    I thought the intent of SC was for watch lovers to sell their watches, at about the same price offered to them for their watch by their local or regional dealer.

    Thereby allowing the watch loving TZ buyer to purchase the watch at an effective discount (TZ price = dealers target price - dealers premium - dealers overheads).

    So a sort of lower cost first dibs for the enthusiast before it heads off to trade?

    Am i way off?
    I think this is correct. Alot of times, people got somewhat criticized when they wrote something along the lines of "WF offered me X so Im offering it at X", which is actually a fair price because obviously WF will sell it at X + Y (Dealer margin).

  16. #66
    Craftsman DACC's Avatar
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    I think people are trying to fog the issue about how much watches are sold for as being the issue - blatant profiteering is the issue.

    For me if people buy a watch to enjoy and that happens to increase in value and is then sold (at a perceived “profit”). I do not have an issue.

    I DO have an issue with people who buy watches purely to sell them on - with no intention of wearing or using them.

    The number of “still has hang tags and stickers attached” is a blatant purchase to make money (and in my head are no better than ticket touts pushing up prices).

    Ditto for “flips at a profit” within days.

    This is a hobby forum. For people with an interest in watches. I appreciate capitalism and market value - but please don’t let profiteers (who put money over the love of watches) kill the forum.

    Light (transparency) is the best antiseptic!



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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by DACC View Post
    I think people are trying to fog the issue about how much watches are sold for as being the issue - blatant profiteering is the issue.

    For me if people buy a watch to enjoy and that happens to increase in value and is then sold (at a perceived “profit”). I do not have an issue.

    I DO have an issue with people who buy watches purely to sell them on - with no intention of wearing or using them.

    The number of “still has hang tags and stickers attached” is a blatant purchase to make money (and in my head are no better than ticket touts pushing up prices).

    Ditto for “flips at a profit” within days.

    This is a hobby forum. For people with an interest in watches. I appreciate capitalism and market value - but please don’t let profiteers (who put money over the love of watches) kill the forum.

    Light (transparency) is the best antiseptic!



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    Well said!

  18. #68
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    Thirded!

    Watches increase in value (sometimes) over years, but not 100% in days.

    There are a lot of veiled allusions to 'dealers' here, but I don't know who we're talking about, so how about people not being so coy and name and shame people buying to sell at an immediate profit?

    M

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  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    Thirded!

    Watches increase in value (sometimes) over years, but not 100% in days.

    There are a lot of veiled allusions to 'dealers' here, but I don't know who we're talking about, so how about people not being so coy and name and shame people buying to sell at an immediate profit?

    M

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  20. #70
    We've also got to not tie ourselves up in rules and governance similar to those adopted by AD's that we spend some much time berating.

    I think I've bought 3 watches off SC in the last 2 years (if you exclude G-shock) and I have lost, or will lose on them all.

    I do think though that who buys watches and at what price is none of my business. I've been low balled many times, some I've taken and some I certainly haven't. That's up to me and my finances at the time. If I'm in the need of cash and someone can grab a bargain and make on it then so what, I'm not bothered in the least. Likewise if a watch is on SC and it's priced at a point I can afford and makes me want it, then I don't care if it was found in a car boot for tuppence.

  21. #71
    Grand Master MartynJC (UK)'s Avatar
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    The ‘rules’ of SC are already stated here: http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...n-Sales-Corner

    Let us not make our lives even more complicated..

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by OldHooky View Post
    The onus shouldn’t be on us to scour threads to verify the integrity. Much rather we as a community out them, identify them and enable everyone to be aware so that as sellers there is a choice. Community spirit rather than research skills.


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  23. #73
    Master Neilw3030's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DACC View Post

    Ditto for “flips at a profit” within days.
    But what constitutes a profit? £1,,,£50,,,,£100 and so on, and when does it become acceptable to flip it for profit?

  24. #74
    Craftsman DACC's Avatar
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    I PM’d a seller of a watch box a few months back. The box was already sold (for £40) - the following day the buyer re-advertised the box for £50! He hadn’t even received it and was already “flipping” it.

    That sort of blatant profiteering is not in the spirit of this forum.
    As I’ve said - stop focusing on the size of the profit and instead focus on the intent of the transaction.

    If the buyer wanted the box - fine. But he clearly just wanted to flip for a quick (albeit £10) profit. That was not in the spirit of this forum.




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  25. #75
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    1000 different people will have 1000 different ideas on what constitutes profiteering. Hence the non stop bickering on the subject.

  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neilw3030 View Post
    But what constitutes a profit? £1,,,£50,,,,£100 and so on, and when does it become acceptable to flip it for profit?
    +£0.01p constitutes a profit but you ignored the 'within days' part. That happens to be the part most people struggle with.

  27. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by anz3001 View Post
    +£0.01p constitutes a profit but you ignored the 'within days' part. That happens to be the part most people struggle with.
    I didn’t ignore the within days part at all, how many days is the period?
    Is it ok after 7 days, 14, one month?

  28. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neilw3030 View Post
    I didn’t ignore the within days part at all, how many days is the period?
    Is it ok after 7 days, 14, one month?
    Perhaps you could use your own judgement as to what you’d consider acceptable rather than keep asking for a definitive answer.

    It’s really not too difficult to see the difference between someone flipping a watch that they’ve received but don’t want, selling a watch that they’ve had a while which has appreciated in value and flipping something for a quick profit.

  29. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by DACC View Post
    I PM’d a seller of a watch box a few months back. The box was already sold (for £40) - the following day the buyer re-advertised the box for £50! He hadn’t even received it and was already “flipping” it.

    That sort of blatant profiteering is not in the spirit of this forum.
    As I’ve said - stop focusing on the size of the profit and instead focus on the intent of the transaction.

    If the buyer wanted the box - fine. But he clearly just wanted to flip for a quick (albeit £10) profit. That was not in the spirit of this forum.

    After postage he wouldn’t make anything?



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  30. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Mick P View Post
    1000 different people will have 1000 different ideas on what constitutes profiteering. Hence the non stop bickering on the subject.
    I thought we were all pretty clear??

  31. #81
    Craftsman DACC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougair View Post
    I thought we were all pretty clear??
    Apart from the people who see this forum as a way to make money out of other people’s hobby (and then take a pedantic stance when found out)




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  32. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lampoc View Post
    Bargains should be passed on at bargain prices.
    Surely that depends on the watch and the circumstances it was acquired in? If I were lucky enough to buy a vintage Patek Philippe worth £10k at a carboot sale or from eBay because it's ended up in a joblot, that watch would be listed on SC at the current market value quicker than you could say the words 'money in the bank'.

  33. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by jl smout View Post
    Surely that depends on the watch and the circumstances it was acquired in? If I were lucky enough to buy a vintage Patek Philippe worth £10k at a carboot sale or from eBay because it's ended up in a joblot, that watch would be listed on SC at the current market value quicker than you could say the words 'money in the bank'.
    I think it's more if you pick up a bargain on the forum.

    Plus no one picks up a patek on a car boot sale.

  34. #84
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    If you want to get rid of it. Take away the for trade option. Most items that sell for a bargain get listed for trade not long after.

    Make people list items for sale. If they want to listen to trades fair enough but it must be listed as for sale.

  35. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPCain86 View Post
    I think it's more if you pick up a bargain on the forum.

    Plus no one picks up a patek on a car boot sale.
    No, but it's not entirely beyond the realm of possibility. Over on the other TZ, a few years ago a chap found a 1950s stainless Patek Philippe in a bag of otherwise junk watches costing $15, if I remember correctly.

  36. #86
    Grand Master Dave+63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPCain86 View Post
    If you want to get rid of it. Take away the for trade option. Most items that sell for a bargain get listed for trade not long after.

    Make people list items for sale. If they want to listen to trades fair enough but it must be listed as for sale.
    Ah the old buy a bargain, trade for something of equal value (greater than purchase price) then sell the new watch at current value routine.

    There’s lots of “good guys” doing this!

  37. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by JPCain86 View Post
    I think it's more if you pick up a bargain on the forum.

    Plus no one picks up a patek on a car boot sale.
    Yes, exactly this.

  38. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lampoc View Post
    Yes, exactly this.
    Ah, I've got it now - I misread the original post. In which case, I agree completely.

  39. #89
    The issue might be, for the collector and enthusiast, that watches are difficult to value, different players are in the market at different times with different price points, different time lines and willing to take different amounts of risk.

    i am afraid that if the SC Nash Equilibrium above is the one we want to work, then there will always be this tension one way or the other, because there is the headroom. The easiest approach is to put up the prices in SC to those on the high street or other reputable online outlets.

    I am sure the professional dealers just come here for fun; the trade will likely have a much lower risk, lower cost of supply, larger volumn and a greater range to choose from. More importantly they will protect their reputation.
    Last edited by timc; 30th March 2018 at 09:31.

  40. #90
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    Alex summed it up in post #11.

    Dealers (professional dealers) have no margin at all buying on SC, even the so called bargains. I think the issue rubbing most people up the wrong way are the "pretend" enthusiasts who just come here now to buy cheapies on SC and sell on ebay to make a bit of pocket money.

    No way around that, though there is a Bear Pit thread running which has outed a few of them, I think Kiki Picasso was the most recent and when approached he simply said he would carry on buying from SC as long as he was a member on the forum - quite proudly rubbing it in.

    The trouble is if a seller advertises a watch a bit under the odds for a quick sale, and one of the "hoovers" pays their asking price, why would the seller turn it down? It's easy to get all outraged after the event, but I bet the sale is welcome at the time.

    This is just a problem (or none-problem) which will never go away as long as Sale Corner is active.

  41. #91

  42. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave+63 View Post
    It’s all about openness and honesty Alex. I can’t imagine anyone having a problem with you buying a watch for yourself.
    Indeed not, both you and kev are the only two Dealers I would happily deal with on TZ buying or selling, and coming from someone who has an intense dislike of dealers in whatever guise they come in that's a huge compliment.
    Last edited by the big fella; 30th March 2018 at 11:29.

  43. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by the big fella View Post
    Indeed not, both you and kev are the only two Dealers I would happily deal with on TZ buying or selling, and coming from someone who has an intense dislike of dealers in whatever guise they come in that's a huge compliment.

    Thanks mate :)

  44. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevkojak View Post
    Alex summed it up in post #11.

    Dealers (professional dealers) have no margin at all buying on SC, even the so called bargains. I think the issue rubbing most people up the wrong way are the "pretend" enthusiasts who just come here now to buy cheapies on SC and sell on ebay to make a bit of pocket money.

    No way around that, though there is a Bear Pit thread running which has outed a few of them, I think Kiki Picasso was the most recent and when approached he simply said he would carry on buying from SC as long as he was a member on the forum - quite proudly rubbing it in.

    The trouble is if a seller advertises a watch a bit under the odds for a quick sale, and one of the "hoovers" pays their asking price, why would the seller turn it down? It's easy to get all outraged after the event, but I bet the sale is welcome at the time.

    This is just a problem (or none-problem) which will never go away as long as Sale Corner is active.


    Maybe Eddie should extend the rule of known dealers in that they cannot access SC or WTB, if they are not selling and putting the 10% in the fund raiser, and they cannot buy to sell on, they've no reason to be in SC or WTB, and maybe even go even further by banning links to known dealers websites, therefore depriving dealers of using TZ as a market place.

    As it stands I feel it's extremly unfair on the like of yourself and alex who regularly put thousands of pounds in the fund raiser while these free loaders contribute nothing,but take plenty either directly or indirectly.
    Last edited by the big fella; 30th March 2018 at 12:15.

  45. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by the big fella View Post
    Maybe Eddie should extend the rule of known dealers in that they cannot access SC or WTB, if they are not selling and putting the 10% in the fund raiser, and they cannot buy to sell on, they've no reason to be in SC or WTB, and maybe even go even further by banning links to known dealers websites, therefore depriving dealers of using TZ as a market place.

    As it stands I feel it's extremly unfair on the like of yourself and alex who regularly put thousands of pounds in the fund raiser while these free loaders contribute nothing,but take plenty either directly or indirectly.

    Not recently mate, it's been dry as a bone on here and I fear it's because most members (especially the newbies) have been led to see the dealers as the devil... horns and all.

    The only watches I ever buy from here are Seiko, and maybe the very occasional Citizen. That's all I collect at the moment and when they are flipped it's usually at a loss - have a look at some of the Prospex I've flipped in the last 6 months! Painfully expensive hobby this, even at the bottom end of the market.

  46. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by kevkojak View Post
    Not recently mate, it's been dry as a bone on here and I fear it's because most members (especially the newbies) have been led to see the dealers as the devil... horns and all.

    The only watches I ever buy from here are Seiko, and maybe the very occasional Citizen. That's all I collect at the moment and when they are flipped it's usually at a loss - have a look at some of the Prospex I've flipped in the last 6 months! Painfully expensive hobby this, even at the bottom end of the market.
    Even so kev you've contributed plenty.

  47. #97
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    I have just completed a trial and now work for a grey dealer doing their web and ch24 stuff so I've joined the ranks of those to be suspicious of.
    I'll continue to use sc if anything takes my fancy but have no intention of using it for work purposes. That would be crapping on my own doorstep and as Alex has said, trade is cheaper.

    Folk have the information now and the choice is theirs if they don't want to buy/sell with me. No offence taken etc.

  48. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by verv View Post
    I have just completed a trial and now work for a grey dealer doing their web and ch24 stuff so I've joined the ranks of those to be suspicious of.
    I'll continue to use sc if anything takes my fancy but have no intention of using it for work purposes. That would be crapping on my own doorstep and as Alex has said, trade is cheaper.

    Folk have the information now and the choice is theirs if they don't want to buy/sell with me. No offence taken etc.
    Congrats!

  49. #99
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    Ally will be in touch soon.

  50. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by verv View Post
    I have just completed a trial and now work for a grey dealer doing their web and ch24 stuff so I've joined the ranks of those to be suspicious of.
    I'll continue to use sc if anything takes my fancy but have no intention of using it for work purposes. That would be crapping on my own doorstep and as Alex has said, trade is cheaper.

    Folk have the information now and the choice is theirs if they don't want to buy/sell with me. No offence taken etc.
    Congratulations Celia!

    We’ll all be waiting for the heads up on the bargains you’ll be able to source from now on!

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