Timegrapher advice

[RustyBin5]

Decided one of these would be a worthwhile purchase so did the deed and it arrived this morning . From what I can gather it's fine to leave the beat rate on "auto" as it should be able to figure that out without me manually inputting it. The next field is more problematic to me. The "lift angle" is defaulted to 52 degrees and from reading up online it seems 52degrees is the norm for most (modern) watches, but if you enter the lift angle incorrectly then the results can be inaccurate. This is my problem - how do you find out the lift angle for your watch? I read somewhere that my Omega SMPc for example with the coaxial has a lift angle somewhere in the 30s for example, and that vintage pieces often aren't 52deg either?

Lastly is there a standard orientation to measure the watch? Should I measure face up crown up and top up then average the results?

Looking forward to seeing how best to use the new toy and seeing the results. Might be an expensive purchase if it throws up servicing needs tho


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[mtagrant]

I found this to be useful and there is a link in the lift angle section - doesn't cover everything, but fairly good:

http://www.wristtimes.com/blog-1/201...-a-timegrapher

[RustyBin5]

I found this to be useful and there is a link in the lift angle section - doesn't cover everything, but fairly good:

http://www.wristtimes.com/blog-1/201...-a-timegrapher

Ah that's useful. I see I wasn't going mad then re the SMPc lift angle then!


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[RustyBin5]

Turns out the grand seiko 9s66 is a 44deg lift angle. Still struggling to find the correct one for the omega speedmaster moonphase - runs a lemania 1866 and might be 50? Not sure
Very happy with first "victim" tho


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[walkerwek1958]

http://hiro.alliancehorlogere.com/en...ift_Angle.html

This is the site I use for lift angle data. 1° discrepancy equates to approximately 5° amplitude; if the lift angle is set too high the amplitude reading will be approx. 5° higher than it really is. Most watches have a lift angle between 48° and 54°, but the Omega co-axials are lower. Can`t recall exactly what the values are, but the different versions have different values. As ever, google is your friend.

If I come across something (usually old and lower quality) where there isn`t any data I leave the default setting at 52°, that's good enough to give an indication of whether the watch is running well or not.

Suggest you do some background reading around the subject, there's plenty of info out there.

Amplitude figures will vary depending on the movement. For an ETA 2824 or 2892 it's not uncommon to see over 300° in the flat positions fully wound, but on a 50 year old Omega 565 in good condition I`d be happy with 260°. If an old watch has significant wear and tear it's sometimes not possible to get the amplitude as high as it should be unless a lot of money is spent on replacement parts, you soon get into the realms of diminishing returns. Amplitude figures are helpful when assessing a watch but other factors have to be considered too. I`ve seen old watches that are filthy inside yet the amplitude is good, sometimes the oil dries up and the pivots are running dry which ironically gives good results, but the wear rate on the pivots will be accelerated.

Learning how to interpret the traces is all part of the fun too!

Paul

Paul

[RustyBin5]

http://hiro.alliancehorlogere.com/en...ift_Angle.html

This is the site I use for lift angle data. 1° discrepancy equates to approximately 5° amplitude; if the lift angle is set too high the amplitude reading will be approx. 5° higher than it really is. Most watches have a lift angle between 48° and 54°, but the Omega co-axials are lower. Can`t recall exactly what the values are, but the different versions have different values. As ever, google is your friend.

If I come across something (usually old and lower quality) where there isn`t any data I leave the default setting at 52°, that's good enough to give an indication of whether the watch is running well or not.

Suggest you do some background reading around the subject, there's plenty of info out there.

Amplitude figures will vary depending on the movement. For an ETA 2824 or 2892 it's not uncommon to see over 300° in the flat positions fully wound, but on a 50 year old Omega 565 in good condition I`d be happy with 260°. If an old watch has significant wear and tear it's sometimes not possible to get the amplitude as high as it should be unless a lot of money is spent on replacement parts, you soon get into the realms of diminishing returns. Amplitude figures are helpful when assessing a watch but other factors have to be considered too. I`ve seen old watches that are filthy inside yet the amplitude is good, sometimes the oil dries up and the pivots are running dry which ironically gives good results, but the wear rate on the pivots will be accelerated.

Learning how to interpret the traces is all part of the fun too!

Paul

Paul

Thank you for that Paul. Very useful. It's really quite fascinating tbh


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[Lampoc]

Here's the lift angle page I have bookmarked: http://pczw.uhren-mikl.com/downloads/gamma.pdf

Just in case you ever get into Russian watches:
Chaika - 13xx / 46°
Luch --- 18xx / 46°
Luch --- 22xx / 49°
Poljot - 2612 / 49°
Poljot - 2609 / 51°
Poljot - 2614 / 51°
Poljot - 3017 / 48°
Poljot - 3133 / 51°
Raketa - 26xx / 42°
Slava -- 16xx / 49°
Slava -- 24xx / 49°
Slava -- 5498 / 47°
Vostok - 24xx / 42°
Zarja -- 15xx / 43.33°
Zarja -- 16xx / 44.3°
Zarja -- 20xx / 44.3°
Chaika -- 13xx / 46°
Luch ---- 18xx / 46°
Luch ---- 22xx / 49°
Molnija - 36xx / 42°
Pobeda -- K26 / 42°
Poljot -- 2612 / 49°
Poljot -- 2609 / 51°
Poljot -- 2614 / 51°
Poljot -- 3017 / 48°
Poljot -- 3133 / 51°
Raketa -- 26xx / 42°
Slava --- 16xx / 49°
Slava --- 24xx / 49°
Slava --- 5498 / 47°
Vostok -- 22xx / 46°
Vostok -- 24xx / 42°
Vostok -- 28xx / 44°
Zarja --- 15xx / 43.33°
Zarja --- 16xx / 44.3°
Zarja --- 20xx / 44.3°

[walkerwek1958]

Just worked on a couple of Russian Vostocks 24xxxxx.......managed to find the lift angle and was surprised to see how low it is!

A Timegrapher's useful for checking the auto-winding's working OK. When the watch has stopped, give it 3 or 4 winds to just get it going, amplitude will be around 150°. Wear it whilst moderately active (preparing breakfast and clearing pots away is as good as anything!) then check the amplitude. If all's well it'll rise significantly after 1 hr activity and it should rise over a period of a few hours.

Some watches don`t auto-wind as efficiently as others, in some cases a watch is better hand-wound initially and the auto-winding will keep the power reserve maintained.

It's worth checking the figures for each watch in a collection and recording them. This gives something to compare against in the future.

Paul

[Stringer]

Excellent thread, this - I'll be buying a Timegrapher at some point, so I'm squirreling away this info for later, thanks.

[RustyBin5]

First results interesting - but two shocking results in a row now which is surprising for me since both run great and accurate and more importantly CONSISTENTLY accurate. Ones the SMPc coaxial. I might have to retest in the morning


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[RustyBin5]

Can't see on any of the links - does anyone know the lift angle of the Omega SMPc blue coaxial? This one


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[Der Amf]

Have you dared put your vintage watches on it yet?

[RustyBin5]

I put my Longines on it but I had wrong lift angle so I'll redo that one. Only other one i have is my dads old rotary from 1968. Result was rather spectacular tbh. So of my 25 watches the timegrapher results have put a "?" Against 4 of them.

I'm gonna road test each of the 4 watches for a week each to see actual accuracy on the wrist then test them again and if still got a "?" then I'll explore having them looked at.

The 4 in question are the
Fortis B42 gmt chrono
Ginault ocean rover
Steinhart Black Sea
And the Longines 302L


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[Der Amf]

Is the Admiral no more?

[RustyBin5]

Is the Admiral no more?

Ah yes the admiral. It is no more in the sense that I don't own it. It does however reside in my house. Wife nabbed it


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[Der Amf]

Ah yes the admiral. It is no more in the sense that I don't own it. It does however reside in my house. Wife nabbed it


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What excellent taste she has ;) (I still think it was a bit rubbish of me to find it surplus to requirements) I suppose its strong styling and 34mm size makes it an excellent women's watch in 2018

[walkerwek1958]

Omega 2500D has a lift angle of 38° according to the Omega data sheet!

Whilst checking your watches I strongly recommend checking in all 6 positions and noting the results........I`m sure that'll prove interesting!

Bear in mind that the rate/performance on the wrist is what matters. When regulating an old watch I try to wear it for several hrs to get an 'on the wrist' rate. I record the rate overnight in dial-up position, if the difference is small the watch will be a consistent timekeeper. However, it's not unusual to see differences of several seconds and sometimes this can appear to contradict the timegrapher expectations.

I aim for an overall rate of between +1 and +3 secs based on 16hrs wear and 8hrs dial-up overnight, this works well even with older watches where positional errors are often bigger. Once the 'on the wrist' rate is known it's possible to make small corrections and moniter the effect by checking the dial-up rate, it isn`t necessary to wear the watch any longer.

Paul

[RustyBin5]

This is all good stuff guys. Biggest concern is the Fortis as the beat error is showing as 7.2 which is very high.


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[RustyBin5]

That sounds logical but frankly beyond me. . Might have to have this one seen to amplitude also very low on it

Oh and yes I have since added tape to the watch grip
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[Bodo]

Make sure the crown is against the pickup on the edge of the stand, not against the sprung slide. Although I would say you're probably right with that one. Is it fully wound? (wound fully - 1 hour).

[walkerwek1958]

Tape on the watch grip is a must, just put a fresh piece on mine yesterday!

The Fortis isn`t a well watch by the look of things. Definitely ready for servicing judging by the amplitude....or lack of! Getting it back in beat will help a little but it's way down on where it should be. The rate isn`t too bad, suggesting someone's regulated it to compensate.

Paul

[RustyBin5]

Tape on the watch grip is a must, just put a fresh piece on mine yesterday!

The Fortis isn`t a well watch by the look of things. Definitely ready for servicing judging by the amplitude....or lack of! Getting it back in beat will help a little but it's way down on where it should be. The rate isn`t too bad, suggesting someone's regulated it to compensate.

Paul

Any idea on likely cost of a service? I'm assuming Fortis won't do it - did they not go bust? Think it's a valjoux inside in any event


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[Thewatchbloke]

Where did you find the 44 degree list angle info for the Seiko calibre 9S66? That data would cover quite a few of their higher end calibres but I've never found any concrete lift angle information and 44 degrees does seem low!

[RustyBin5]

Where did you find the 44 degree list angle info for the Seiko calibre 9S66? That data would cover quite a few of their higher end calibres but I've never found any concrete lift angle information and 44 degrees does seem low!

You could be right. I've found it all but impossible to find GS lift angle - I noted the 44 angle from a site orologico.info but no idea if it's right tbh ☹️


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[khumzi]

Good stuff and something I might also buy at some point soon. (I'm getting dangerously close to messing with some of the pieces in my flea market box.) At the moment I make do with an iPhone app, Timegrapher, alongside Watchtracker. They're both quite good, although you do need some peace and quiet for the former to work properly and Watchtracker depends on a seconds hand and your own accuracy at hitting the "now" button. It's helped me decide on when to send watches off for service and it's nerdy fun to be able to catalog with some timegraph/accuracy info.

[RustyBin5]

Cool thanks Chris. Def getting the Fortis serviced if I can find someone to do it. I think I'll measure in 3 positions


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[ChrisN]

Cool thanks Chris. Def getting the Fortis serviced if I can find someone to do it. I think I'll measure in 3 positions


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I meant to say that you won't get reliable results with a coaxial. The manufacturer may say it will read a coaxial but it won't do it correctly. For that, you need a specific program. I use a Witschi and you need to tell it that you're testing a coaxial so it can use a different piece of internal software. But the Witschi is a huge chunk of cash... If your amplitude and curves look bad, don't worry.

Just out of interest, my particular Chinese spare timegrapher is very close to my Witschi in terms of results so you can't complain at the price. It's obviously less capable in other ways than the more expensive kit but at the price they are, who cares.

I suppose the Fortis is based on a Valjoux 7750 so, you can use your usual watchmaker. They are very nice to work on and usually come out very well and run accurately.

Cheers, Chris

[RustyBin5]

I meant to say that you won't get reliable results with a coaxial. The manufacturer may say it will read a coaxial but it won't do it correctly. For that, you need a specific program. I use a Witschi and you need to tell it that you're testing a coaxial so it can use a different piece of internal software. But the Witschi is a huge chunk of cash... If your amplitude and curves look bad, don't worry.

Just out of interest, my particular Chinese spare timegrapher is very close to my Witschi in terms of results so you can't complain at the price. It's obviously less capable in other ways than the more expensive kit but at the price they are, who cares.

I suppose the Fortis is based on a Valjoux 7750 so, you can use your usual watchmaker. They are very nice to work on and usually come out very well and run accurately.

Cheers, Chris

Yeah the Chinese is about £100 but the Witschi was several hundred, but results the same / it just doesn't do the advanced options so China one is fine for my domestic use.


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[alfat33]

Really interesting thread, thanks Rusty for starting it.

[RustyBin5]

Been wearing the Fortis . It's +0 after several hours on the wrist. Torn whether to send it for treatment or not


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[ChrisN]

They will work with pocket watches. You move the slider (which may not be obvious in the pictures) further across. For wristwatches, the crown should be against the microphone on the left but for pocket watches, I put the number 3 there and it works fine as they are usually quite loud. It should pick up any lever escapement but something like an old cylinder escapement has a different set of noises so it will give odd results.

You can use the timegrapher to get an idea of how your movement is performing but some of these will run perfectly well while being dry and dirty. You're also not testing all of the mechanism so there could be parts wearing even though the timegrapher says all is well. Just depends when it was last serviced. The timegrapher is just an indication of the performance at that point in time.

Then it's your choice:
If it's a fairly modern common movement with readily available inexpensive parts, you can service it when you are unhappy with the running or you feel something is wrong/has changed.
If it's old and the parts are scarce/expensive, probably better to stick to the 5-10 year service intervals.
Or just always stick to the 5-10 years regime.

Just as a caveat, I don't know any watchmaker who is short of work so I'm not trying to get people to follow any particular interval here.

Cheers, Chris

[walkerwek1958]

Agree 100%with Chris, it's easy for people to think the recommendations are put about by repairers looking for work but that's simply not true thesedays.

Just assembled a 1950s Omega bumper automatic tonight, a movement I really like despite the limited efficiency of the auto winding. The design's very robust but there are a couple of parts in the auto-winding that clearly need to be kept well-lubricated to preserve them. On old automatic watches it's usually the auto-winding parts that suffer if the watch isn`t serviced regularly. The modern stuff is more robust in this respect but most vintage watches aren't. It would make sense to have the auto-winding mechanism serviced more frequently in my opinion, especially if a vintage watch is used as an everyday wearer. In the majority of designs the auto-winding mechanism can be accessed easily without disturbing the rest of the movement, the repair trade has never embraced the concept of interim services ( a bit like cars) but I think there's some merit for certain models.

The 'if it ain't broke' brigade will continue to delude themselves, but this is definitely the wrong philosophy with an old watch.

With a vintage watch it's all about keeping it well-lubricated and keeping the wear rate on parts to an absolute minimum. Watch winders are a definite no-no for old watches..........but I`m sure someone will come along to contradict me on this because it's what they want to believe.

What can`t speak can`t lie, I`ve seen plenty of cases where a watch has suffered extreme wear because it's been used for many years without being serviced.

Paul

[scottie2345]

They will work with pocket watches. You move the slider (which may not be obvious in the pictures) further across. For wristwatches, the crown should be against the microphone on the left but for pocket watches, I put the number 3 there and it works fine as they are usually quite loud. It should pick up any lever escapement but something like an old cylinder escapement has a different set of noises so it will give odd results.

You can use the timegrapher to get an idea of how your movement is performing but some of these will run perfectly well while being dry and dirty. You're also not testing all of the mechanism so there could be parts wearing even though the timegrapher says all is well. Just depends when it was last serviced. The timegrapher is just an indication of the performance at that point in time.

Then it's your choice:
If it's a fairly modern common movement with readily available inexpensive parts, you can service it when you are unhappy with the running or you feel something is wrong/has changed.
If it's old and the parts are scarce/expensive, probably better to stick to the 5-10 year service intervals.
Or just always stick to the 5-10 years regime.

Just as a caveat, I don't know any watchmaker who is short of work so I'm not trying to get people to follow any particular interval here.

Cheers, Chris

That seals it then, I shall have to get one, you just cannot have enough toys to fiddle with

scottie