Bremont Endurance

[doug darter]

You write 7 paragraphs completely destroying the brand criticising every aspect of their watchmaking and end by saying 'I have nothing against Bremont'.

You clearly have a deep personal issue with the brand and while some of what you have said is barely reasonable most is utterly ridiculous and completely subjective.

Bremont make some of the most interesting watches in terms of looks which at least demonstrate some personality compared to the usual bland dross most people tend to go for on here.

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I don't have any issues with the brand whatsoever.I have never owned one. Yes, some of what I've written is subjective, but looked at in the perspective of someone who has been collecting watches for almost 50 years, most of it is objective, and has been gained from experience of owning many watches from many brands over all those years. Nothing at all that I have written is 'utterly ridiculous', and if you thing it is, I invite you to explain why. You may think some of it is unreasonable, and from your personal standpoint, I cannot take issue with that point of view. You are quite obviously a fan.

Just a point to consider. You say I take issue with every aspect of their 'Watchmaking' Bremont are not watchmakers. They are watch assemblers. This is one of my main issues. They take 'off the peg' movements, have the cases made, dials made, straps made, watches assembled, and they then sell the resultant watch. They may arrange to have movements modified, but none of the work is done 'in house'. They are a boutique company, nothing more, yet they pretend to be more, and this is a sham.

I absolutely agree that their watches look interesting, colourful, but also confusing. They do not appeal to me.

The 'bland dross' that most people tend to go for on here is the driving force and life force of the horological industry, which has sustained watchmaking and technical innovation for three centuries or more, and to say that most people her 'go for it' is actually bit of an insult, as most were here before you and Bremont were heard of!

[ataripower]

I don't have any issues with the brand whatsoever.I have never owned one. Yes, some of what I've written is subjective, but looked at in the perspective of someone who has been collecting watches for almost 50 years, most of it is objective, and has been gained from experience of owning many watches from many brands over all those years. Nothing at all that I have written is 'utterly ridiculous', and if you thing it is, I invite you to explain why. You may think some of it is unreasonable, and from your personal standpoint, I cannot take issue with that point of view. You are quite obviously a fan.

Just a point to consider. You say I take issue with every aspect of their 'Watchmaking' Bremont are not watchmakers. They are watch assemblers. This is one of my main issues. They take 'off the peg' movements, have the cases made, dials made, straps made, watches assembled, and they then sell the resultant watch. They may arrange to have movements modified, but none of the work is done 'in house'. They are a boutique company, nothing more, yet they pretend to be more, and this is a sham.

I absolutely agree that their watches look interesting, colourful, but also confusing. They do not appeal to me.

The 'bland dross' that most people tend to go for on here is the driving force and life force of the horological industry, which has sustained watchmaking and technical innovation for three centuries or more, and to say that most people her 'go for it' is actually bit of an insult, as most were here before you and Bremont were heard of!

You make some fair points and my response was perhaps too generalised concerning what most people go for on here although it is clear there is a heavy bias towards one or two brands and all others get lumped into the 'everything else' category.

On the other points, so what if they are only 'watch assemblers'? They assemble incredibly good watches with a high technical specification using premium materials. Their watches are innovative and bold and they appeal to a diverse audience looking for something more interesting at an affordable (relatively speaking) price point. They are a young company (in horology terms) and are working on developing their own in-house mechanics but this costs money. So in the meantime they need to build their brand which is done by marketing and sell some watches to pay for the inevitable investment required to become, as you say proper watchmakers. I suspect you will still have your usual bias towards them even when they do produce a genuine in-house movement.

You are clearly very knowledgeable and experienced in all aspects of horology and that deserves respect but this can sometimes become the problem and is what is holding the Swiss mechanical watch industry back. A refusal to acknowledge the arrival of game changing brands and ideas because they do things a little differently than how things were normally done.

Tesla have faced the same challenges in the motor industry trying to build brand and gain market share from a consumer base who traditionally only consider Mercedes or Audi to be proper car manufacturers. Fortunately for them, Tesla have significant financial backing (a billionaire owner) to market and build exceptional products unlike Bremont who actually need to sell watches and make a profit to invest in their future growth.

[doug darter]

You make some fair points and my response was perhaps too generalised concerning what most people go for on here although it is clear there is a heavy bias towards one or two brands and all others get lumped into the 'everything else' category.

On the other points, so what if they are only 'watch assemblers'? They assemble incredibly good watches with a high technical specification using premium materials. Their watches are innovative and bold and they appeal to a diverse audience looking for something more interesting at an affordable (relatively speaking) price point. They are a young company (in horology terms) and are working on developing their own in-house mechanics but this costs money. So in the meantime they need to build their brand which is done by marketing and sell some watches to pay for the inevitable investment required to become, as you say proper watchmakers. I suspect you will still have your usual bias towards them even when they do produce a genuine in-house movement.

You are clearly very knowledgeable and experienced in all aspects of horology and that deserves respect but this can sometimes become the problem and is what is holding the Swiss mechanical watch industry back. A refusal to acknowledge the arrival of game changing brands and ideas because they do things a little differently than how things were normally done.

Tesla have faced the same challenges in the motor industry trying to build brand and gain market share from a consumer base who traditionally only consider Mercedes or Audi to be proper car manufacturers. Fortunately for them, Tesla have significant financial backing (a billionaire owner) to market and build exceptional products unlike Bremont who actually need to sell watches and make a profit to invest in their future growth.

Thank you for a more reasonably thought out response. Your points are well put and difficult to argue with.

I take issue with two. Price. These are not realistic. They are just plain damned expensive. In house movements. A watch company doesn't 'NEED' an 'in house' movement' and the search for one has bankrupted many. They can take 20 or 30 years to develop, and one developed by another company and then 'bought in' will never really be accepted by the cognoscenti as a true in house movement, and could be in the long run a waste of money. Many of the industry big gun's use modified ETA's, giving them 'Calibre' numbers viz Omega, Breitling, and IWC to name but a few. I don't regard them as being a pre-requisite.

I am not a luddite. A good friend has a Tesla, and I ride in it often. 0-60 in around 4 seconds, noiseless, extreme comfort, 160mph, he says 200mile range. It is a fabulous car, and I'd buy it in a heartbeat....... if it were 60k cheaper!!

[crazyp]

I don't have any issues with the brand whatsoever.I have never owned one. Yes, some of what I've written is subjective, but looked at in the perspective of someone who has been collecting watches for almost 50 years, most of it is objective, and has been gained from experience of owning many watches from many brands over all those years. Nothing at all that I have written is 'utterly ridiculous', and if you thing it is, I invite you to explain why. You may think some of it is unreasonable, and from your personal standpoint, I cannot take issue with that point of view. You are quite obviously a fan.

Just a point to consider. You say I take issue with every aspect of their 'Watchmaking' Bremont are not watchmakers. They are watch assemblers. This is one of my main issues. They take 'off the peg' movements, have the cases made, dials made, straps made, watches assembled, and they then sell the resultant watch. They may arrange to have movements modified, but none of the work is done 'in house'. They are a boutique company, nothing more, yet they pretend to be more, and this is a sham.

I absolutely agree that their watches look interesting, colourful, but also confusing. They do not appeal to me.

The 'bland dross' that most people tend to go for on here is the driving force and life force of the horological industry, which has sustained watchmaking and technical innovation for three centuries or more, and to say that most people her 'go for it' is actually bit of an insult, as most were here before you and Bremont were heard of!

I mentioned earlier in the thread - I would prefer if watchmakers make an 'honest' watch and be transparent. There is nothing wrong with being watch assemblers, if done well - MB&F for example and don't try and come up with some rubbish 'history' and try and charge a premium for it.

I would also add even the historical watchmakers, they play on history for too much, starting to charge ridiculous amounts and are in my mind border lining on being a bit disingenuous themselves.

[dougair]

Thank you for a more reasonably thought out response. Your points are well put and difficult to argue with.

I take issue with two. Price. These are not realistic. They are just plain damned expensive. In house movements. A watch company doesn't 'NEED' an 'in house' movement' and the search for one has bankrupted many. They can take 20 or 30 years to develop, and one developed by another company and then 'bought in' will never really be accepted by the cognoscenti as a true in house movement, and could be in the long run a waste of money. Many of the industry big gun's use modified ETA's, giving them 'Calibre' numbers viz Omega, Breitling, and IWC to name but a few. I don't regard them as being a pre-requisite.

I am not a luddite. A good friend has a Tesla, and I ride in it often. 0-60 in around 4 seconds, noiseless, extreme comfort, 160mph, he says 200mile range. It is a fabulous car, and I'd buy it in a heartbeat....... if it were 60k cheaper!!

On the price point, this is always going to be subjective, some will pay the money others won't. If they were too expensive they wouldn't sell any watches and at the end of the day are trying to find their place in the market so have priced accordingly. Their focus seems to be on the US and Asia markets.

To be fair, what luxury brand isn't too expensive?

[sweets]

Doug I strongly suggest you read the "ablogtowatch " article about being inside Bremont's watchmaking facilities in Silverstone as well as Henley.
Your assertion that Bremont are just assemblers is outdated and totally wrong.
Total in-house case manufacture, especially when every case is 3 part, is no mean feat to bring in-house, and it deserves to be known and acknowledged.
Dave
Dave

[sweets]

And that article is 2 years old

[MrBanks]

And that article is 2 years old

Indeed. If you visited Bremont HQ in Henley today you would see how much the company has expanded and invested into its watchmaking. There is a new manufacturing facility located 15 mins down the road (moved from Silverstone) with new top of the range equipment including the CNC machines.
I find that most people who criticise Bremont have no real knowledge of the brand, who they are, what they do and what they want to achieve. If you don't like the watches that's absolutely fine, we're all entitled to opinion and taste is subjective, but there's far too many spurious claims thrown around without any actual first hand experience of the company.

[JP Chestnut]

Spurious claims like crashing in a farmer’s field and naming your watch brand after him?

Bremont could make the best watches on earth and that line of BS would turn me off.

[MrBanks]

Spurious claims like crashing in a farmer’s field and naming your watch brand after him?

Bremont could make the best watches on earth and that line of BS would turn me off.

Good for you.

[doug darter]

I've now read the article.

https://www.ablogtowatch.com/bremont...y-closer-look/

It would seem that I was way off point, and that Bremont have now moved on.

It would appear that I owe Bremont and those members who gainsayed my somewhat bombastic opinion a fulsome apology.

I apologise.

I still however dislike the watches, and the price, and my opinions regarding the design, and ist's philosophy still stand.

[Oracle]

I've now read the article.

https://www.ablogtowatch.com/bremont...y-closer-look/

It would seem that I was way off point, and that Bremont have now moved on.

It would appear that I owe Bremont and those members who gainsayed my somewhat bombastic opinion a fulsome apology.

I apologise.

I still however dislike the watches, and the price, and my opinions regarding the design, and ist's philosophy still stand.

A good apology and deserved, and also a very good article to read from A Blog To Watch.

I don't know how far from Nantwich you are Doug, down the road in wintry Shropshire or whether you have ever visited us in Nantwich but it would be great to welcome you to Moodys and sit down and chat about watches and have a look at some of the new Bremonts in the flesh. And others of course.....

If you are heading this way let me know.

Cheers

David

[paskinner]

Not a fan of the advertising ....which is pretty cynical. But I had a Supermarine 300 and found it an excellent watch. Quite excellent.

[sweets]

I've now read the article.

https://www.ablogtowatch.com/bremont...y-closer-look/

Actually Doug, THIS was the one I meant, as it shows a bit more of the case making facility, which I now understand is moved from Silverstone nearer to HQ in Henley (which was news to me). The article photos also feature this forum's very own Gary, who seems to be (somewhat irreverently) wearing his LCD Seiko whilst assembling Bremonts.

I totally respect that you may not like the watches, and you (with others, me too to a degree) have issues with the marketing too. Fine, no complaint from me.

But my point was that they are genuinely bringing everything they can in-house, at a pace totally unprecedented for an independent start-up.

I might add that your willingness to assimilate this new info and apologise does you credit. Chapeau

Dave

[PIERS (UK)]

...They are just plain damned expensive. In house movements. A watch company doesn't 'NEED' an 'in house' movement' and the search for one has bankrupted many. They can take 20 or 30 years to develop, and one developed by another company and then 'bought in' will never really be accepted by the cognoscenti as a true in house movement, and could be in the long run a waste of money.

What a complete load of sh*t.

Posted by someone who I guess has absolutely no idea or genuine experience of what it takes to start, fund and run a Watch Company, ...unless correct me if I am wrong, Doug has already done this and is the voice of experience.

Doug, it doesn’t take 20-30 years to make an in-house movement, just the right experienced people and a load of cash, talent, balls and risk. I believe Bremont are still working towards their ‘proper’ in-house movement, so should be applauded for this if and when they are finally ready to deliver it.

...However it only take 5 mins to post on a forum, with your opinions, as you did, which is far far easier than pumping your hard earned cash and time into something that you believe in, even when people close to you think you are losing the plot.

I totally get you don’t like the design, or pricing. It’s all subjective and the reason why there are so many different brands and watches for people to buy, but unless you have actual experience of this, your statements are seriously lacking in any substance.

[Frankie169]

I am sorry but that’s a big no from me.

Same here, to busy

[doug darter]

What a complete load of sh*t.

Posted by someone who I guess has absolutely no idea or genuine experience of what it takes to start, fund and run a Watch Company, ...unless correct me if I am wrong, Doug has already done this and is the voice of experience.

Doug, it doesn’t take 20-30 years to make an in-house movement, just the right experienced people and a load of cash, talent, balls and risk. I believe Bremont are still working towards their ‘proper’ in-house movement, so should be applauded for this if and when they are finally ready to deliver it.

...However it only take 5 mins to post on a forum, with your opinions, as you did, which is far far easier than pumping your hard earned cash and time into something that you believe in, even when people close to you think you are losing the plot.

I totally get you don’t like the design, or pricing. It’s all subjective and the reason why there are so many different brands and watches for people to buy, but unless you have actual experience of this, your statements are seriously lacking in any substance.

Yet again, somebody speed reads, and misquotes!! I didn't say it takes 20 - 30 years to make an in house movement. What I said was, it can take 20 - 30 years to develop and in house movement, (from scratch). It's quite different when a start up company, with help from other companies,get's help to build a new movement using existing components to build an 'in house' movement. I did say that this is possible in a short time in an earlier post if you could have been bothered to read it. The sentence contained the word 'cognoscenti'. You obviously aren't one. Just think about it.... look how long it took a huge company like Breitling to produce their own TRUE in house movement, with all their expertise and resources.

I'm not in the habit of talking a complete load of shit as you put it. I like to call a spade a spade, and as far as spending my money, I'll spend it exactly where I wish, and if it's on traditional style watches from established companies, then that's my choice.

BTW, have you had any real experience of running a 'start up watch company', and bringing it up to full production??

The question was asked at the beginning of this thread by the OP. I offered my opinion.

[dougair]

BTW, have you had any real experience of running a 'start up watch company', and bringing it up to full production??.

He might have some...https://pinionwatches.com

[doug darter]

He might have some...https://pinionwatches.com

Well, Pinion Watches!! I have admired these watches for quite a while. My sort of watch in fact, with real design integrity.

Seems yet again I owe somebody an apology. Piers, I apologise.

I am now going to withdraw from this thread, sit in front of my computer for the weekend, and read about new watch companies. This old dog needs to learn some new tricks.

I will, perhaps, own a Pinion watch one day.


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[PIERS (UK)]

Well, Pinion Watches!! I have admired these watches for quite a while. My sort of watch in fact, with real design integrity.

Seems yet again I owe somebody an apology. Piers, I apologise.

I am now going to withdraw from this thread, sit in front of my computer for the weekend, and read about new watch companies. This old dog needs to learn some new tricks.

I will, perhaps, own a Pinion watch one day.

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Cheers for the response Doug.

[Oracle]

Cheers for the response Doug.

Hi Piers

Boy did that make me laugh!!

And good to see your defence of Bremont, but of course that was a given.

Keep up the great work with Pinion.

Cheers

David

[ataripower]

Why have I never heard of Pinion Watches before? Just had a look, some awesome pieces there. One to keep an eye on I think

[berin]

Why have I never heard of Pinion Watches before? Just had a look, some awesome pieces there. One to keep an eye on I think

Because they don't do all the cheesy advertising and promotion that Bremont does

[ataripower]

Because they don't do all the cheesy advertising and promotion that Bremont does

Ha ha! I guess that's 1-0 to Bremont then

[boywithabubblegun]

What a great thread. Really good to read some *ahem* healthy debate by well informed participants without (too much) bickering. Also nice to see humble pie being eaten graciously.... and served with humility! :-)

And just to add my take on things..... I don't own either but personally I think I'd prefer to wear a Pinion than a Bremont if they offered a slightly smaller option. Anything in the pipeline Piers? 38 or 39mm auto date would be perfect :-)

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[bedlam]

He might have some...https://pinionwatches.com

Nothing at Pinion that would move the Supermarine from my wrist. I have dived a lot of watches and rate the Supermarine above most others.

The idea that Bremont would be canned for marketing based on superlative claims, fantasy and wish fulfillment is nothing short of hilarious. Welcome to the watch industry, and have a look at any Omega-Bond tie in for a clue about what goes on all the time.

[gerard]

The Endurance reminds me of the Seiko Landmaster range. Nothing wrong with it, leaves me a bit cold, but the price.....just don't see £5k of watch there. The Supermarine case is comfortable.

Same for the Pinion....just assembled "me too" stuff for the Hodinkee hipster bridge at an inflated price.

TBH though I'm beginning to wonder about he pricing of all the brands....it's marketing costs. Pages and pages of glossy ads, boutiques in the most expensive locations....as some once once postulated (on major Swiss brands)the actual watch cost (SS models) is about 10% of retail. Probably not far wrong.....more spent on the marketing.

[Broussard]

Proud to be able to say I own both Pinion and Bremont watches. My Supermarine 500 was stolen during a burglary, which was unfortunate, as it was literally one of the first off the line back in 2009. It's one of the best recreational SCUBA watches I've ever used (the Seiko Baby Tuna took the top spot last November) and, like many modern divers, while it might be slightly top heavy and ungainly on the surface, it's a joy to wear over neoprene. This upgraded version is quite interesting: I recall Bremont sending over the results of the pressure test on the original prototype models - they deformed at 145-147 atmospheres, if I recall correctly. I wonder what the display back has done to that performance.

[MattH]

Me too ... happy owner of both Pinion, Bremont and Schofield watches. All fill different styles, though internally all rocking eta movements of one sort or another.

But i will say over the entire watch industry the prices are now ridiculious and i would always
if possible buy secondhand. It astounds me how many 69 speedies i had a few yesrs ago... i could not imagine affording one these days !

Though is interesting how different firms treat their customers - considering the investment we
make in their timepieces...

All of the above firms have been fantastic to deal with, the customer service in the Bremont boutiques was also excellent.

Much better than the substandard experience with Panerai which put me off the brand for good.

Cheers

matt

[helidoc]

My Bremont interest sits with the MB2, and ALT-1C, rather than the fussy Endurance and slightly generic Supermarine, but as a company I like their direction of travel. No young company can be independent of out-sourced movements, but in their short life so far, they have moved from a "Swiss Atelier", which I regard as Swiss private label, to doing as much manufacturing as possible themselves, in the UK. It's nice to have an alternative to the usual suspects, and their customer service is reported to be very good. I have never owned one, but I'm certainly open to the idea. At least you can be free of the Rolex AD madness with supply of the sports models.


Dave

[ataripower]

So after a long wait, it's finally arrived. I was initially taken aback by how light it is but you get used to it. I like it a lot. Don't be afraid to ask for a discount if you buy from an AD. They are willing to oblige :-)

2018-07-18 17.06.32 by ataripower, on Flickr

2018-07-18 17.06.38 by ataripower, on Flickr

[MrBanks]

How do you like it? The sapphire bezel and GGB zulu is a nice touch.

[ged]

So after a long wait, it's finally arrived. I was initially taken aback by how light it is but you get used to it. I like it a lot. Don't be afraid to ask for a discount if you buy from an AD. They are willing to oblige :-)

2018-07-18 17.06.32 by ataripower, on Flickr

2018-07-18 17.06.38 by ataripower, on Flickr

I tried one yesterday. Really liked it and I was offered a small discount without asking. It was pretty small so it didn't make me go for it.

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[inspector gadget]

If I could afford a Bremont it would be an MB1, however saving up for Eddies Smiths Daytona first, then a nice 6b reissue, then something a little bit special nudge nudge.

[Omegamanic]

Looks good on.

If I didn’t have the Terra Nova, I’d probably have tried hard to source one at the right price.

[kaiserphoenix]

Me too ... happy owner of both Pinion, Bremont and Schofield watches. All fill different styles, though internally all rocking eta movements of one sort or another.

But i will say over the entire watch industry the prices are now ridiculious and i would always
if possible buy secondhand. It astounds me how many 69 speedies i had a few yesrs ago... i could not imagine affording one these days !

Though is interesting how different firms treat their customers - considering the investment we
make in their timepieces...

All of the above firms have been fantastic to deal with, the customer service in the Bremont boutiques was also excellent.

Much better than the substandard experience with Panerai which put me off the brand for good.

Cheers

matt

I agree the folks at the Bremont boutique in Mayfair are an absolute delight to deal with and Really makes the entire experience pleasurable and for me worthwhile.


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[ataripower]

How do you like it? The sapphire bezel and GGB zulu is a nice touch.

I like it a lot more then I thought I would to be honest. The sapphire bezel is a work of art, the watch just feels quality and it a real attention grabber if you like that sort of thing!


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[dougair]

If I could afford a Bremont it would be an MB1.

You’d be doing well to find one on the open market at any price, although I do recall one being for sale at circa £25k😳

[berin]

One on Watchfinder at £27,500


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[ataripower]

Looks good on.

If I didn’t have the Terra Nova, I’d probably have tried hard to source one at the right price.

The Terra Nova is a beauty - kicking myself for letting it go :-(

[dougair]

One on Watchfinder at £27,500


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Might take my 1.25 down to see what they’d give for it...

[inspector gadget]

One on Watchfinder at £27,500


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And another on watchfinder p.o.a it might be more affordable ...


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[Laur]

This :

OTT design, advertising full of superlatives, celebrity names, company endorsements, sporting connections, great photography.

They have off the shelf Standard or modified movements, some have good decoration, but make spurious claims, but with disingenuous information.

Overhyped reputation engendered by all of above leads to prices akin to those inflated by reputation unwarranted akin to Sicura aka Breitling ie, undeserved!!

These watches really should be priced around half what is being charged. They have no true heritage. There is nothing special about them, their casemaking or movements. They are not innovative in any way. the design has no integrity, it is dishonest. the design cue's are taken from established aviation and naval iconography. Any art student could do similar work by looking through military history books.

The brand claims it's 'heritage' from Aviation and Naval history!! The brand isn't old enough to have any heritage.

Timefactors watches can claim real heritage. Eddie's watches are probably better made and engineered, probably better developed, have custom made casework, some have COSC movements, some have specially developed movements. None cost more than £2000, and in my honest opinion, none of Bremont's watches look as good as either of the Dreadnoughts!!

There are other Boutique brands that cost a lot less which also have production standards as high as Bremont, brilliant design, and true functionality, which also are bargains in comparison.

I have nothing against Bremont, and I'm not for a moment saying that they are not good watches. They are merely average watches, at above average prices, with below average (in my opinion) design integrity.

Christopher Ward seems to be, in my opinion headed in the same direction.

These are boutique brands acting and charging like Swiss ‘heritage’ brands, and don’t get me started on this lot!!!!!

[ataripower]

This :

Oh dear, another Rolex fanboy

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[kaiserphoenix]

This :

How does one build heritage then? Everyone needs to start somewhere, Rolex didn’t have “heritage” when they started. You build your legacy and brand. Most wont succeed but at least they are trying and whilst they have made some mistakes overall i feel Bremont has done very well and making robust good looking watches and bringing back watchmaking to the U.K.


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[sweets]

This :

Even Doug himself doesn't think "This" any more, having been informed as to how much Bremont are doinf for themselves in the UK now.

Sure, he still doesn't like the watches, but even he acknowledges there is enough trouser to justify the mouth that Bremont use to advertise their wares.

Dave

[seikopath]

All very well Dave, but it still looks like a timex expedition on champagne :)

[Topcat30093]

If I could afford a Bremont it would be an MB1, however saving up for Eddies Smiths Daytona first, then a nice 6b reissue, then something a little bit special nudge nudge.

You’d be doing well to find one on the open market at any price, although I do recall one being for sale at circa £25k

One on Watchfinder at £27,500


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Giles who owns Oakleigh Watches has one.
https://www.oakleighwatches.co.uk/th.../#.W1Q1rTKZORs