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Thread: ANOTHER mass killing in US

  1. #51
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    The 2nd Amendment is an American ideal that went slightly awry. It was initially conceived as a pre-emptive, populist measure against foreign invaders and to prevent a repressive society where only the militia and police had firearms. At the time, this may have made sense as the founding fathers had no clairvoyance of the technological advances that would later emerge. When the Bill of Rights was drafted, the only personal firearms were single-shot muskets and pistols.

    The NRA often falls short in that they take American gun ownership rights to an extreme. In their book, there is no accounting for wackos or disgruntled foreigners owning firearms in the United States. No psychological testing and in many cases, inadequate background checks. As a result, America is a gun-toting society especially in the more conservative regions of the country.

    It's rooted to a certain degree in a paranoia of sorts and part of the American consciousness.

  2. #52


    A true patriot.





  3. #53
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    I’m currently one state north of this shooting, when it was raised in a meeting at work this morning very few people had heard about it... out of it we agreed to review the site active shooter policy.

    I had a conversation with someone on site about gun ownership last year, it was very calm and rational but basically the guy described an arms race, the crooks kept getting bigger guns so everyone else has to follow.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jardine32 View Post
    These fools should see what a modern high velocity round does to a human being, especially a child, then they can argue about their right to own military grade weapons.
    J
    What the heck is a military grade weapon?

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ares View Post
    What the heck is a military grade weapon?
    Machine guns?
    Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.

  6. #56
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    I wonder if someone took an automatic weapon to the NRA conference and let loose, would that help to change their minds?

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by brigant View Post
    I wonder if someone took an automatic weapon to the NRA conference and let loose, would that help to change their minds?
    No, because he'd be gunned down in seconds and they'd claim it supported their call for EVERYONE to be armed...

    M

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Raffe View Post
    Machine guns?
    Guns designed for the military - Like the 5.56mm round that NATO use and semi-automatic weapons designed for it, like the AR15 (semi auto M16/M4).

    M

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    No, because he'd be gunned down in seconds and they'd claim it supported their call for EVERYONE to be armed...

    M
    Quite. But he would only need to stand in the crowd and fire a few shots and become the most successful mass shooter as they would all kill each other.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post


    Guns designed for the military - Like the 5.56mm round that NATO use and semi-automatic weapons designed for it, like the AR15 (semi auto M16/M4).

    M
    Not much difference between 5.56 NATO and .223 Remington (and most military firearms I have encountered had a 'fun' selector position that is rightly missing from Civilian versions). The term "military-grade" weapons is an ill-informed term employed by the press to scaremonger, and really detracts from a much more fundamental discussion around gun control.

  10. #60
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    I liked this article (warning - satire)
    http://newsthump.com/2018/02/15/nati...an-on-schools/

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnthemull View Post
    Not much point caring about this problem when the US couldn’t care less about it. Why even report it on the news anymore?
    This is my view I am fed up with hearing about shootings in America, it is not news.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ares View Post
    What the heck is a military grade weapon?
    Any semi auto, high capacity weapon, usually above 5.56mm.
    J

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ares View Post
    Not much difference between 5.56 NATO and .223 Remington (and most military firearms I have encountered had a 'fun' selector position that is rightly missing from Civilian versions). The term "military-grade" weapons is an ill-informed term employed by the press to scaremonger, and really detracts from a much more fundamental discussion around gun control.
    I suppose we could discuss a hypothetical situation when a normal, law abiding citizen would need a high capacity (20/30) magazine. But to be fair I would be struggling.
    J

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jardine32 View Post
    I suppose we could discuss a hypothetical situation when a normal, law abiding citizen would need a high capacity (20/30) magazine. But to be fair I would be struggling.
    J
    Let’s go back a few steps - why do law abiding citizens need a gun at all?

    Cos nasty people have them?
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  15. #65
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    I guess the problem is that it is far too late for gun control laws. Even if you imposed a total ban on gun sales, there are so many in circulation that it would take decades for the authorities to gain control. Very, very few Americans would voluntarily surrender their weapons.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    Let’s go back a few steps - why do law abiding citizens need a gun at all?

    Cos nasty people have them?

    Because some like to hunt and shoot AND because it's not against the law.

    I think we should not forget that approx 90 people are killed per day in road traffic accidents in the US.

    The method is different but the results are the same.

    Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
    Friedrich Nietzsche


  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ares View Post
    Not much difference between 5.56 NATO and .223 Remington (and most military firearms I have encountered had a 'fun' selector position that is rightly missing from Civilian versions). The term "military-grade" weapons is an ill-informed term employed by the press to scaremonger, and really detracts from a much more fundamental discussion around gun control.
    A lot of difference between an AR15 modified to fire near full auto and a bolt action 5 shot hunting rifle.

    Sure you realise that though, so your point seems pedantic.

    M

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  18. #68
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    It's really not about gun control it's people control. A gun kills no-one by itself.
    However, a fast firing semi-auto will kill more than a single shot or bolt action as said before.
    The problem is keeping the nuts away from the guns. Gunshops should have responsibility to inform authorities if any one buys a semi-auto, half a dozen 30 round mags and a 1000 rounds of ammo even in USA regardless of their precious constitution.
    We go on about America but it's easier to buy guns in some parts of Europe albeit illegal ones.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    Let’s go back a few steps - why do law abiding citizens need a gun at all?

    Cos nasty people have them?
    In a rational society the general population should have no need for such weapons. I am not anti firearms per se, ( Having spent many a year carrying the things, before moving to another career.) A well informed and educated civilian should ideally not foresee a situation where their logical response is where is my AR15.
    The first realistic step for America should be limitation, not eradication, though good luck with getting anything through Congress.
    J

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    Let’s go back a few steps - why do law abiding citizens need a gun at all?

    Cos nasty people have them?
    Chris your wrong with that statement. Should we cancel the olympic shooting events based on your comments ... yes. I shoot clay sports over here and I know you have them in the UK so should we just stop the world from itself. If we closed society to all the bad things would we progress?
    Lets start with car accidents if we ban cars they'll be no more traffic related deaths
    if we ban skiing no more tree's to kill the innocents
    no pools=no drownings
    no planes no crashes

    If we wrap ourselves in bubble wrap maybe we will not get bruises and broken bones.

    Does anyone have an answer to the madness maybe God does who knows but the blame lies on the individuals not so much the tool.

  21. #71
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    The States need more controls over guns.

  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by jk103 View Post
    Chris your wrong with that statement. Should we cancel the olympic shooting events based on your comments ... yes. I shoot clay sports over here and I know you have them in the UK so should we just stop the world from itself. If we closed society to all the bad things would we progress?
    Lets start with car accidents if we ban cars they'll be no more traffic related deaths
    if we ban skiing no more tree's to kill the innocents
    no pools=no drownings
    no planes no crashes

    If we wrap ourselves in bubble wrap maybe we will not get bruises and broken bones.

    Does anyone have an answer to the madness maybe God does who knows but the blame lies on the individuals not so much the tool.
    In your normal walk of life, that's what he means not when taking part in a controlled sport.
    Cars.....weren't designed to kill people
    Swimming pools......weren't designed to kill people
    Planes.....weren't designed to kill people
    Skiing is a recreational sport and wasn't designed to kill people.

    Its quite clear that you're never going to control the people 100%. anyone I guess can lose it at the flick of a button. So you look down to the next link in the chain....which just happens to be the gun.
    Take away, restrict, reeducate, ban, whatever you need to do to change the massive love affair you have with the gun. Until you realise that stories like this stop becoming stories, it's just an everyday event.
    I don't need a gun in my country....the only reason why you think you need one is because of your ridiculous gun laws.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by jk103 View Post
    Chris your wrong with that statement. Should we cancel the olympic shooting events based on your comments ... yes. I shoot clay sports over here and I know you have them in the UK so should we just stop the world from itself. If we closed society to all the bad things would we progress?
    Lets start with car accidents if we ban cars they'll be no more traffic related deaths
    if we ban skiing no more tree's to kill the innocents
    no pools=no drownings
    no planes no crashes

    If we wrap ourselves in bubble wrap maybe we will not get bruises and broken bones.

    Does anyone have an answer to the madness maybe God does who knows but the blame lies on the individuals not so much the tool.
    Nice to hear from someone in the USA because I see this as an American problem which should have an American solution.
    Statistics on both sides of the argument are to be treated with caution in my view.
    Between "over a third" to maybe half of Americans own a gun.
    Millions of Americans use them or have them and the vast majority without problems.
    No one knows how many guns there are in America - best estimate 250 million to 500 million.
    Registration of them all,as we have here,would take a long time and,no doubt,be fiercly resisted.
    In some places,high gun control is coupled to high criminal gun use and in others low gun control is seen with low crime - the USA is a huge country with differing areas etc - they have many gun laws but bewildering jurisdictions (Federal,state,county city).
    The biggest cause of death with firearms in America is suicide.If you are determined to end your life,especially men,will often choose this way but there will always be other ways to do it.
    A teenager at the Florida shooting made a point that if Cruz had not bought his rifle illegally then he would have bought it illegally - controls would have little impact,maybe?
    I am a target shooter myself but I would be uneasy,as an American,at the presence of semi automatic/automatic rifles (although the latter need a Federal licence,I think) in the hands of civilians so maybe a ban/buyback could be tried?
    Nice to hear from Massachusetts though,not exactly liberal with gun laws like Texas,if I recall correctly - good luck to Americans.
    Last edited by topcat666; 17th February 2018 at 21:33.

  24. #74
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    Correct FFF - there is no rational reason why Mr & Mrs Average need a handgun each and a semi auto rifle at home. Complete and utter ludicrous situation that is beyond redemption.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franky Four Fingers View Post
    In your normal walk of life, that's what he means not when taking part in a controlled sport.
    Cars.....weren't designed to kill people
    Swimming pools......weren't designed to kill people
    Planes.....weren't designed to kill people
    Skiing is a recreational sport and wasn't designed to kill people.

    Its quite clear that you're never going to control the people 100%. anyone I guess can lose it at the flick of a button. So you look down to the next link in the chain....which just happens to be the gun.
    Take away, restrict, reeducate, ban, whatever you need to do to change the massive love affair you have with the gun. Until you realise that stories like this stop becoming stories, it's just an everyday event.
    I don't need a gun in my country....the only reason why you think you need one is because of your ridiculous gun laws.
    When you look long into an abyss, the abyss looks long into you.........

  25. #75
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  26. #76
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    This just came up

    I think it’s one of the best speeches I’ve ever heard,she calls out Trump and others in a way it’s hard to fault.

    Inspiring

    http://uproxx.com/viral/emma-gonzale...n-rally-trump/

  27. #77
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    Guns have always been a part of society in the US. I grew up with guns and have owned them. In High School in the mid 70's I brought a rifle to school (I was on the shooting team) at least once a week for practice or meets, the rifle always went directly to the Principals office for storage until needed for practice/meet. No one was ever shot.

    Cruz also purchased the AR15 legally he was of age, filled out the paperwork, waited the three days and passed a background check. The failure is his mental health was never addressed, he had been expelled for carrying live ammunition on campus. Instead of expelling him the Principal should have had him arrested and if found guilty he would not have been able to legally purchase the rifle.

    You say ban the AR15, silly this rifle has been available since the 60's it has just become the weapon of choice by these mentally ill people because it is cool and scary looking. He would have done more damage in the hallways and class rooms with a 12 gauge semi auto or pump shotgun better yet a hand gun (which he could not own until 21).

    One more thing it seems as if most of the recent mass shooters have been prescribed psychotropic drugs for depression. Maybe our dependence on mood altering drugs needs to be looked at.
    Last edited by Ron Jr; 18th February 2018 at 16:27.

  28. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_the_UK View Post
    Indeed - they have had generations of people who believe they have to protect themselves.......from what?
    Their Government ........ so they believe

    "if only they did not speak English" .......... we would think that they were foreigners, or a foreign country
    Last edited by BillN; 18th February 2018 at 16:45.

  29. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Jr View Post
    Guns have always been a part of society in the US. I grew up with guns and have owned them. In High School in the mid 70's I brought a rifle to school (I was on the shooting team) at least once a week for practice or meets, the rifle always went directly to the Principals office for storage until needed for practice/meet. No one was ever shot.

    Cruz also purchased the AR15 legally he was of age, filled out the paperwork, waited the three days and passed a background check. The failure is his mental health was never addressed, he had been expelled for carrying live ammunition on campus. Instead of expelling him the Principal should have had him arrested and if found guilty he would not have been able to legally purchase the rifle.

    You say ban the AR15, silly this rifle has been available since the 60's it has just become the weapon of choice by these mentally ill people because it is cool and scary looking. He would have done more damage in the hallways and class rooms with a 12 gauge semi auto or pump shotgun better yet a hand gun (which he could not own until 21).

    One more thing it seems as if most of the recent mass shooters have been prescribed psychotropic drugs for depression. Maybe our dependence on mood altering drugs needs to be looked at.
    Much of that I understand, but, in relation to the highlighted paragraph: What crime could he have been found guilty of for "carrying live ammunition on campus", please?

  30. #80
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    Schools are gun free zones now so possession of a firearm or live ammunition on campus is a crime.

  31. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Jr View Post
    Schools are gun free zones now so possession of a firearm or live ammunition on campus is a crime.
    I see that US law for school zones applies to firearms (link), but I'm struggling to find a similar provision for possession of ammunition (I have looked). Can you help me to find it, please?

    Further, The 2017 Florida Statutes talk about (link) "sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, destructive device, or other weapon as defined in s. 790.001(13)" but, as far as I can see, make no mention of ammunition. (NB Their definition of "Destructive device" specifically excludes "shotgun shells or any other ammunition designed for use in a firearm".)

  32. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Jr View Post
    Guns have always been a part of society in the US. I grew up with guns and have owned them. In High School in the mid 70's I brought a rifle to school (I was on the shooting team) at least once a week for practice or meets, the rifle always went directly to the Principals office for storage until needed for practice/meet. No one was ever shot.

    Cruz also purchased the AR15 legally he was of age, filled out the paperwork, waited the three days and passed a background check. The failure is his mental health was never addressed, he had been expelled for carrying live ammunition on campus. Instead of expelling him the Principal should have had him arrested and if found guilty he would not have been able to legally purchase the rifle.

    You say ban the AR15, silly this rifle has been available since the 60's it has just become the weapon of choice by these mentally ill people because it is cool and scary looking. He would have done more damage in the hallways and class rooms with a 12 gauge semi auto or pump shotgun better yet a hand gun (which he could not own until 21).

    One more thing it seems as if most of the recent mass shooters have been prescribed psychotropic drugs for depression. Maybe our dependence on mood altering drugs needs to be looked at.

    If you're willing to accept the premise that only mental people do mental things and at no point place any blame to your ridiculous gun laws then incidents will continue to be common place.
    How many more people including children have to be needlessly murdered in your county before someone wakes up....I think we know the answer..
    TBH what you need is more guns, if only the teachers had been packing hey, the outcome could have been soooo much different

  33. #83
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    Students to march on Washington:

    Young survivors of Wednesday's school shooting in Florida have announced a national march on Washington to demand political action on gun control.

    Students organisers told US media that they are determined to make Wednesday's shooting a turning point in the national gun debate.

    The attack, which left 17 students and staff members dead, was the deadliest US school shooting since 2012.

  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Jr View Post
    Guns have always been a part of society in the US. I grew up with guns and have owned them. In High School in the mid 70's I brought a rifle to school (I was on the shooting team) at least once a week for practice or meets, the rifle always went directly to the Principals office for storage until needed for practice/meet. No one was ever shot.

    Cruz also purchased the AR15 legally he was of age, filled out the paperwork, waited the three days and passed a background check. The failure is his mental health was never addressed, he had been expelled for carrying live ammunition on campus. Instead of expelling him the Principal should have had him arrested and if found guilty he would not have been able to legally purchase the rifle.

    You say ban the AR15, silly this rifle has been available since the 60's it has just become the weapon of choice by these mentally ill people because it is cool and scary looking. He would have done more damage in the hallways and class rooms with a 12 gauge semi auto or pump shotgun better yet a hand gun (which he could not own until 21).

    One more thing it seems as if most of the recent mass shooters have been prescribed psychotropic drugs for depression. Maybe our dependence on mood altering drugs needs to be looked at.
    Did you even listen to that speech I posted above?

    Some of the shooters maybe mentally ill, the rest of the world though thinks your gun laws are equally insane.
    How can you even put up any argument in defence,the statistics speak for themselves.

  35. #85
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    Just close all schools and there will be no more campus shootings. Result.
    Someone who lies about the little things will lie about the big things too.

  36. #86
    Yet in California they have little signs outside of restaurants warning of carcinogens. Seems to me that the idiots with guns are a more likely danger to anyone’s health


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  37. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Jr View Post
    Schools are gun free zones now so possession of a firearm or live ammunition on campus is a crime.
    Is that going to stop the school shootings? Just wondering like..

  38. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Jr View Post
    Schools are gun free zones now so possession of a firearm or live ammunition on campus is a crime.
    Wow, we'll that seems to be working!
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

  39. #89

    ANOTHER mass killing in US

    A bit like when Greenwich declared itself a “nuclear free zone”


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  40. #90
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    A lot of you don't understand that most people committing these mass killings have mental health issues a little reading will see that the latest guy has been said to have a mental health problem. Years ago we used to house the mentally ill until the liberals came along after the movie "One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest" and decided it was an unhealthy atmosphere. Given some history on the State mental hospitals and the abuses changes need to take place not closure.

    We now take care of those with mental health people by allowing them to live like animals on the street because the liberals feel it's a better decision. Most of our homeless today are criminals with mental health issues. You can go to Youtube search for "Homeless in California" and you'd be awestruck at the number of homeless living on the streets in tents and the majority with mental health issues.

    So if you take a tool from a killer do you think they will give up and not kill or will they find another tool? Do you know what tool was used in the deadliest mass killing in the US? I will handicap this question it wasn't a gun so what was it?

  41. #91
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    As an aside the other week a young man 24 a former Eagle Scout brutally stabbed his 20 year old girlfriend to death then drove to a local restaurant and stabbed his mother and father at a birthday party they were having. This restaurant is literally 5 minutes from my house and my wife and I eat there often.

    This kid has supposedly been struggling with mental health issues for a few years and was turned away from a psychiatric hospital just days before he went on the rampage.

    Google "Ben Walsh Millis MA" for the info

  42. #92
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    ANOTHER mass killing in US

    Ally made the point in another thread, but it’s amazing how a young man on a murderous rampage is either a troubled teen with mental health issues or a terrorist depending on whether he is white or brown, Christian or Muslim.
    It is true that since America is not a caring society, mental health issues were the first to be denied funding and instead of having a statistically normal mental health patients population in care they have them running feral in the wild.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  43. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by jk103 View Post
    As an aside the other week a young man 24 a former Eagle Scout brutally stabbed his 20 year old girlfriend to death then drove to a local restaurant and stabbed his mother and father at a birthday party they were having. This restaurant is literally 5 minutes from my house and my wife and I eat there often.

    This kid has supposedly been struggling with mental health issues for a few years and was turned away from a psychiatric hospital just days before he went on the rampage.

    Google "Ben Walsh Millis MA" for the info
    Quote Originally Posted by jk103 View Post
    A lot of you don't understand that most people committing these mass killings have mental health issues a little reading will see that the latest guy has been said to have a mental health problem. Years ago we used to house the mentally ill until the liberals came along after the movie "One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest" and decided it was an unhealthy atmosphere. Given some history on the State mental hospitals and the abuses changes need to take place not closure.

    We now take care of those with mental health people by allowing them to live like animals on the street because the liberals feel it's a better decision. Most of our homeless today are criminals with mental health issues. You can go to Youtube search for "Homeless in California" and you'd be awestruck at the number of homeless living on the streets in tents and the majority with mental health issues.

    So if you take a tool from a killer do you think they will give up and not kill or will they find another tool? Do you know what tool was used in the deadliest mass killing in the US? I will handicap this question it wasn't a gun so what was it?
    Most people realise that this isn't just a gun issue however, for some bewildering reason you seem to struggle with the concept of this problem not being just a mental health issue.

  44. #94
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    Not for nothing that almost 20 percent of the US population are on some form of prescription mood enhancer. IF you lived in such a dangerous and dissonant place, wouldn't you want to escape reality...

  45. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    Ally made the point in another thread, but it’s amazing how a young man on a murderous rampage is either a troubled teen with mental health issues or a terrorist depending on whether he is white or brown, Christian or Muslim.
    It is true that since America is not a caring society, mental health issues were the first to be denied funding and instead of having a statistically normal mental health patients population in care they have them running feral in the wild.
    With very easy access to guns.
    "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."

  46. #96
    Grand Master Saint-Just's Avatar
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    ANOTHER mass killing in US

    Absolutely. But as has been pointed earlier other countries have a reasonably high gun ownership without the regular shootings that the US have. So instead of focusing on gun ownership (which won’t change anytime soon: imagine TM saying something along the lines of “we had a rethink, Brexit is a terrible idea so we’re going to apologise for the wasted time and remain in the EU”. Whilst it would probably be a good thing for the country in general, people would take to the streets, and not just the Leave voters), I tried to see what made those other countries different. And they all have a decent health system that deals with the most vulnerable.
    It goes without saying that once you have diagnosed a mental patient, it would be terribly reasonable to stop him from having access to guns but just taking him into care and helping him to manage his condition would already do a lot.
    'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.

  47. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by adrianw View Post
    Until they scrap the 2nd amendment

    At least this is one thing that Trump cannot change. I do agree that everyman has the right to bare arms but only if you can justify why they need to carry a weapon.

  48. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by jk103 View Post
    A lot of you don't understand that most people committing these mass killings have mental health issues a little reading will see that the latest guy has been said to have a mental health problem. Years ago we used to house the mentally ill until the liberals came along after the movie "One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest" and decided it was an unhealthy atmosphere. Given some history on the State mental hospitals and the abuses changes need to take place not closure.

    We now take care of those with mental health people by allowing them to live like animals on the street because the liberals feel it's a better decision. Most of our homeless today are criminals with mental health issues. You can go to Youtube search for "Homeless in California" and you'd be awestruck at the number of homeless living on the streets in tents and the majority with mental health issues.

    So if you take a tool from a killer do you think they will give up and not kill or will they find another tool? Do you know what tool was used in the deadliest mass killing in the US? I will handicap this question it wasn't a gun so what was it?
    And yet in recent weeks Donald repealed an Obama era law that prohibited those with mental illness from buying firearms - the change received a one line appendix at the bottom of a press release which detailed several bills he had signed into law with great fanfare. So now those with a history of mental illness can go out and buy a semi-automatic rifle.

    On your point about mental health issues among the homeless in Cali - how much of that is down to drug/alcohol abuse caused by circumstance rather than medically diagnosed mental illness?

  49. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by MADDOG View Post
    At least this is one thing that Trump cannot change. I do agree that everyman has the right to bare arms but only if you can justify why they need to carry a weapon.
    This is a point I find particularly interesting when people bring up that the constitution cannot be changed etc etc - the second amendment is an amendment (the clue is in the title!) - it could be amended.

  50. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by MADDOG View Post
    At least this is one thing that Trump cannot change. I do agree that everyman has the right to bare arms but only if you can justify why they need to carry a weapon.
    Not really a weapon if you are just carrying a rifle to a range, or shotgun to a clay ground. Weapon is terminology used by antis.

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