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Thread: Smiths or Rolex - Which One Was the First Watch on Mt. Everest?

  1. #301
    Re: However, in this case, it’s just a matter of what is most likely to be true on the basis of the best evidence available.

    Ok, now that is a different tack as opposed to the open and shut case or a smoking gun approach elsewhere on the thread. As I see it, the available/presented evidence makes it likely that Hillary had a Smiths on his persona when he reached the summit, possibly the only watch he carried to the summit.
    I am not all convinced if he was the first person on top and whether we can tell with any degree of certainty what Tensing was wearing. The evidence I am considering is the grainy pictures with mostly off angle view of watches, the letters, the claims, the ads, the 'admission' etc. The only thing I am discounting are the vehement assertions made on what I consider is thin circumstantial evidence for the claim that there was no Rolex between the pair on the summit.
    BTW, I am sure you know where the picture is from.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt
    However, in this case, it’s just a matter of what is most likely to be true on the basis of the best evidence available.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rajen
    Ok, now that is a different tack as opposed to the open and shut case or a smoking gun approach elsewhere on the thread.
    No it isn't. It's simple academic caution. At this point, I'd say that there is a combination of evidence to support the theory (as in theory of evolution) that while Rolex and Smiths were worn ubiquitously during the expedition, neither Hillary or Tenzing wore anything but Smiths beyond camp four. Both are wearing watches on their wrists as they prepared to leave camp four and on their return. There is zero credible evidence that either watch is a Rolex and a profusion of evidence, photographic, biographic, circumstantial and documentary that neither of those watches were Rolex and that one, and almost certainly both were Smiths A409 watches. Personally I don't think this was a plan. They needed high quality timekeeping, both watches offered that. The team for the first assault both wore Rolex, the team for the second both wore Smiths. The evidence that Hillary had a Rolex on Everest, or even at all, prior to the Bosecks one is scant. there is no credible evidence that Tenzing had, or used a steel one prior to Bosecks' gift.

    As I see it, the available/presented evidence makes it likely that Hillary had a Smiths on his persona when he reached the summit, possibly the only watch he carried to the summit.
    I'm sure. The watch he wore has an immaculate provenance, it's in the Science Museum London. Hillary says it's the one, he's never said there was another, despite being employed by Rolex and it's clear what it is in a number of pictures. Smiths asserted and Rolex conceded that he was wearing a Smiths and not wearing or carrying a Rolex on the summit. I could go on, but speaking with my epistemology hat on this is the sort of nested evidence that puts the claim beyond dispute. The fact that you think it doesn't is no evidence to the contrary.

    I am not all convinced if he was the first person on top
    Again, that's nice, but near the ends of their lives, they both said he was. I agree that's not conclusive, but it's pretty convincing. Either way, there’s sod all evidence that Tenzing wore a Rolex. The only reason people started to think he did was because he had a gold Datejust and it was claimed or inferred that he wore that. He clearly didnt.

    and whether we can tell with any degree of certainty what Tensing was wearing.
    Perhaps, but the evidence for what he wasn't wearing is far more conclusive.

    The evidence I am considering is the grainy pictures with mostly off angle view of watches, the letters, the claims, the ads,
    So, you are saying that you looked at the photo I posted above and that you see a Rolex 6098? Or any Rolex? Because I suspect that will put you in a very small minority, Most, I suspect, will see a watch that looks compellingly like an A409 and wonder why you don’t...

    You don't think it odd, that Rolex, a company with one of the most aggressive advertising departments in the world, would miss the opportunity to place a Rolex on the summit of Everest in 1953? You think that the director of Rolex at the time would concede there was no Rolex there? You think that Hunt, Hillary or Tenzing, all retained by Rolex, wouldn't point out that there was one there if there was?

    the 'admission' etc.
    What admission?


    The only thing I am discounting are the vehement assertions made on what I consider is thin circumstantial evidence for the claim that there was no Rolex between the pair on the summit.
    There you go with the dysphemism. Vehement? really?

    As for the thin circumstantial evidence, you are making a claim, prove it - where's Hillary's 1953 Rolex? Tenzing's? We know he wasn't wearing a gold Datejust which is the usual suspect. What was he wearing and where did he get it. Why do dozens of pictures of him not show a Rolex and why don't Rolex have or claim to have a Summit Rolex from either of them? Slagging off someone else's efforts is easy. Now you have a claim. prove it.

    BTW, I am sure you know where the picture is from.
    Yes, thanks, precisely. I actually stated where, earlier in this thread; a thread you seem oddly vague about given the claims you are making. Not only do I know where, I know the precise number in the RGS collection of 1953 photographs and, thanks for reminding me, I need to get in touch and give them some money as I promised to if I used it. When I do primary research I do it properly.
    Last edited by M4tt; 12th March 2019 at 22:35.

  3. #303
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    I miss Soundood and his 'headshot' meme.

  4. #304
    Matt, I applaud your research. I really do. I just hope that as an honest researcher,you consider the possibility that your research suffers from some of the major pitfalls of any research effort like confirmation bias, selection bias and overfitting. I hope there is more intellectual rigor exercised here by the onlookers other than standing by the sidelines and clapping and saying- Well done,what a great effort!

  5. #305
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    M4tt - Well done, what a great effort!

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJEN View Post
    Matt, I applaud your research. I really do. I just hope that as an honest researcher,you consider the possibility that your research suffers from some of the major pitfalls of any research effort like confirmation bias, selection bias and overfitting. I hope there is more intellectual rigor exercised here by the onlookers other than standing by the sidelines and clapping and saying- Well done,what a great effort!
    Look, if you have an actual rebuttal of any of this then let’s hear it. If you want to claim that this suffers from any of those biases make you case for it doing so. Meanwhile, please be assured that I’m irritatingly well qualified and experienced to do this sort of thing, and, if you bother reading the thread you are criticising, you’ll see I took time to address precisely this sort of issue at the level of visual processing, so yes, I’m demonstrably alert to a wide range of cognitive biases. The minor detail that my commitment is to getting to the bottom of stuff not a particular brand probably helps.

    Oh, and when trying to convince people in a public argument, it’s probably a bit silly to be passive aggressive to the people commenting on it. I don’t mind, but I suspect you are hurting you own (oyster) case.
    Last edited by M4tt; 12th March 2019 at 23:55.

  7. #307
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    Brilliantly done M4tt, with the precision of a surgeon. 👍

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Curta View Post
    M4tt - Well done, what a great effort!
    I was just about to say the same to you. Jolly well done.

    The more I look at those devices the cooler they seem. I brought up how cool they are with my beloved and she listened with interest but casually mentioned that weíd just bought a new house that needs a bit of work and if I was thinking of buying one I might just have to sleep in the greenhouse while I thought about it.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbee View Post
    Brilliantly done M4tt, with the precision of a surgeon. 
    Stop winding the poor chap up.

  10. #310
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    That guy who enters a vast thread full of evidence and painstaking research and says "Nah, I don't think so" without any first-hand knowledge or particular expertise. He has never personally done any high-end climbing but is sure you don't even need watches for such activities!

    The internet is full of these people.

  11. #311
    Re: The only reason people started to think he did was because he had a gold Datejust and it was claimed or inferred that he wore that. He clearly didnt.

    So, you are accusing Tensing and his family of lying. Ok.
    http://rolexpassionreport.com/919/th...-norgay-rolex/

    Re: As I said before, Rolex were merely doing product placement. Smiths were providing a total package and, to be clear, their key business was instruments.

    Requiring a written assertion that Smiths will be worn on the summit. That sounds suspiciously like product placement to me even if they supplied oxygen gauges.

    Re: admission?
    Admission of Rolex directlor about Hillary's Smiths

    Re: So, you are saying that you looked at the photo I posted above and that you see a Rolex 6098? Or any Rolex? Because I suspect that will put you in a very small minority, Most, I suspect, will see a watch that looks compellingly like an A409 and wonder why you don’t...

    I have tried to look repeatedly at the picture and I am not convinced either way. May be we see what we want to see. Plus even if it is a Smiths, that doesn't prove that was on his wrist at the summit

    Re: You think that Hunt, Hillary or Tenzing, all retained by Rolex, wouldn't point out that there was one there if there was?

    Well, his family claims he told that it was a Rolex. Again a claim like all other claims. It is amusing that at some point people claim Rolex made false propaganda about Rolex and the summit and next moment they are 'accused' of not making the claim. A bit comical trying to have it both ways.
    And, Smiths have never claimed Tensing was wearing a Smith at the summit. So,there.

    Re:Personally I don't think this was a plan. They needed high quality timekeeping

    Well, Smiths themselves said they asked (or to be accurate were given)for written assurance that there watches will be worn on the summit.


    Re:

    Source: https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...r-1-quot/page3
    Rolex simply did not have a watch bearing the name (or even called) "Explorer" until later in 1953 -- after the ascent.
    So, yes, damn right "some people refer to as Rolex marketing as false propaganda/bollocks/BS etc."

    This has been used repeatedly to discredit Rolex marketing on the thread. But it is semantics -whether the word Explorer
    Was on the watch before.

    I could go on and on,replying to the different points, evidence etc. But the main point is (at least to me), a lot of it is contentious. Might be a case of- for those who believe,no evidence is need and for those who don't, none is enough.
    In summary, I would reiterate what I said at very beginning- Pretty good evidence for Hillary's Smiths even if I can't wrap my head around the 'carrying' part. The only thing I can think of is, for some reason it was not on his wrist and he wanted to be painstakingly accurate. Doesn't really matter if he carried it elsewhere on his persona for a part of the journey. If that was the only watch with him on the last leg, it is good enough.
    Tensing- we can't be sure. I feel reasonably certain it wasn't a Smiths. Otherwise, Smiths would have staked a claim.
    Was it a Rolex- I think it is possible,may be even likely. That is where our positions differ. I don't find convincing evidence
    Either way. How much stock would I put in his family's claims- I am not sure except that I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand. I have made my views on claims/comments about Rolex marketing and 'oppurtunism' clear elsewhere. So, no need to repeat.

    Sorry, I am not good at multi-quoting or having patience to craft long responses. But, I don't think either makes an argument more convincing to the intellectually curious. I am not being passive aggressive to anyone but stating what I feel is obvious. Most people here like elsewhere in life don't bother to critically analyze the written word and that can be due to multitude of reasons. It could be either lack of inclination or ability even amongst otherwise intelligent people. It is not a knock on anyone but just reality. While I am admitting what I am not good at, I am not good at personal attacks like calling someone stupid or silly or a stupid troll or a fanboy or any ability or desire to attract sycophants. I will leave it to those who feel the need for it or are 'good' at it. Also not very good at claiming lack of bias or partiality. I like Rolex watches and disdain unwarranted criticism. Fanboy- naah but that is such a childish accusation that it is not necessary to rebutt.
    Have a good day.
    Given the effort Matt and Rev-O have put in, I believe they should be allowed to have the last word. I will try not to comment further. Mind you, this is not petulant slinking off but acknowledgement that it is after all your thread and you should be allowed to have the last word before putting it to bed. It is obvious that you are passionate about the subject and your belief and I am passionate about my almost crusade-like neccessity to defend Rolex ( though not necessarily limited to Rolex ) against what I feel is unwarranted criticism. And, passion often clouds wisdom and judgement. I prefer to look past any comments made out of frustration but not those that are a part of a pattern.
    Last edited by RAJEN; 13th March 2019 at 05:09.

  12. #312
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    I’ll do the rest later, but yes, I’m certainly accusing someone of lying. If you’d read the thread you are being so critical of, you’d remember that. The same source for the claim about the Datejust also has this claim:

    John Hunt came with a message from the young UK Queen in spe to Raymond in asking him to convince Tenzing to join!]
    Which is patently ridiculous oh the face of it, doesn’t fit the fact that Tenzing was employed months before Hunt arrived and implies he had the Smiths before they arrived in India. When a source is proven unreliable it stops being credible. Which is what I demonstrated already. You are literally dragging the discussion over ground that is already covered.

  13. #313
    Master Mr Curta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJEN View Post
    So, you are accusing Tensing and his family of lying. Ok.
    http://rolexpassionreport.com/919/th...-norgay-rolex/
    I think it's more likely that Stahl put words into their mouths - leading the witness - but the many holes in the statements are patently blatant.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Curta View Post
    I think it's more likely that Stahl put words into their mouths - leading the witness - but the many holes in the statements are patently blatant.
    Stahl is wrong in his comments.
    This:

    This rare & important Tenzing Rolex shows a gravure that doesnít mention the succesful 1953 ascent, no instead it meantions a Swiss í52 expedition. Tenzing was in í53 not on paper a member of í53 expedition, so no steel Rolex on extra long bracelet.
    And this:

    Tenzings own words to his family where that he worn this Rolex on the Mt.Everest.
    Are stating the watch worn in '53 was gold, but as already shown several times the watch(es) worn by Tenzing were silver in colour.

    Too often Stahl makes unsupported statements, or makes connections where none exist.
    I find it very difficult if not impossible to award any credibility to his opinions for the above reasons.

  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt View Post
    Stop winding the poor chap up.
    It's the Smiths fans who need winding up. The Rolex is an automatic.

    Still, if you want to wind up a Smiths fan just bring up the topic of Morrissey's conversion to far-right populism . . . .

    And how late they were to introduce shock-proofing to the balance staff and the way they "borrowed" (stole) their automatic from the IWC Pellaton and the weakness of the click / bolt spring and the endless arguments about how far Lenoir did or did not copy JLC when developing the 1215.

    I could bore for England on Smiths watches. Did you know, for example, that a Smiths De Luxe was the first watch to the top of Everest? What's that you say? You did know! Well, I'm impressed. A lot people think it was a Rolex but [continues for another 8,000 words]

  16. #316
    My final post on this thread (yes, yes, I've said that before) and I want to give the last word to Philipp Stahl (again) "it will always remain a mystery if Rolex was literally on the summit"

    Roger and out (as I think they say in the Navy)

  17. #317
    Don't engage with the nutter on the bus, simple rule and works on so many levels.

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by tempfort View Post
    Don't engage with the nutter on the bus, simple rule and works on so many levels.
    I don't think that's remotely helpful.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt View Post
    I don't think that's remotely helpful.
    You wouldn't as it's you engaging.
    Last edited by tempfort; 15th March 2019 at 00:33.

  20. #320
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    I find that some-one who is prepared to explain as M4tt does his reasoning is rare in the forum world and others just like the sound of their own, often unfounded, opinion.
    Cheers M4tt.

  21. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by tempfort View Post
    You wouldn't as it's you engaging.
    True.

    But thereís a world of difference between people who have been on the bus for the whole journey and people who just got on. Do you have anything to add to the discussion or just a quick adhominem?

  22. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl.1 View Post
    I find that some-one who is prepared to explain as M4tt does his reasoning is rare in the forum world and others just like the sound of their own, often unfounded, opinion.
    Cheers M4tt.
    My pleasure. I just type fast.

  23. #323
    I have enjoyed watching this thread develop as a result of some very informed contributions and reasoned discussion. It would be a shame to watch you engage with one who appears to not be interested in the facts. To do it so forensically gives the reader the impression that it is more about ego and not the subject.
    As for asking if I have anything to add, I think you are being disingenuous, you clearly demonstrate the intellect to comprehend my intention.
    Can we return to the journey as I pressed the stop button by mistake.
    Nigel

  24. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt View Post


    I bet you a fiver...
    Done!

    So do I owe you, or you me?

    Seriously, this thread has long since crossed over from ever-diminishing returns and has started diluting the useful stuff with repetitions and rubbish. It's now attracting more red herrings and straw men than a surrealist junk shop.

    Top work, though, Matt.

    As an aside, I'm just making a Smiths watch for my daughter using the case, dial and hands from an early Dennison-cased A404 powered by a recently-serviced Garrard "1218" (the 18 jewel version of the 1215 with Bregeut overcoil hairspring) and a stainless steel winding crown. Built from bits in my parts box but the arguably ultimate Smiths!

    I'll pop it on a NOS Perlon "Panama" strap, put it in a nice presentation box and it's good to go. Not quite as it left Cheltenham but a bloody good watch.

    Finally, for all you Schmutz fans there's a dedicated subforum on mwr (https://www.mwrforum.net/forums/foru...Vintage-Smiths) and a facebook group too (https://www.facebook.com/groups/261717824304503/)

    We know that a Schmutz was on the summit that day but "it will always remain a mystery if Rolex was literally on the summit". Yes it will. Always.

    Smiths is not a "wannabe" (as a certain website claims) but Rolex is a "maybe" and that is as much as we can say.

    I think I'll wear an Omega today. I've had enough of the other two for a bit.

  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev-O View Post
    Done!

    So do I owe you, or you me?

    Seriously, this thread has long since crossed over from ever-diminishing returns and has started diluting the useful stuff with repetitions and rubbish. It's now attracting more red herrings and straw men than a surrealist junk shop.

    Top work, though, Matt.

    As an aside, I'm just making a Smiths watch for my daughter using the case, dial and hands from an early Dennison-cased A404 powered by a recently-serviced Garrard "1218" (the 18 jewel version of the 1215 with Bregeut overcoil hairspring) and a stainless steel winding crown. Built from bits in my parts box but the arguably ultimate Smiths!

    I'll pop it on a NOS Perlon "Panama" strap, put it in a nice presentation box and it's good to go. Not quite as it left Cheltenham but a bloody good watch.

    Finally, for all you Schmutz fans there's a dedicated subforum on mwr (https://www.mwrforum.net/forums/foru...Vintage-Smiths) and a facebook group too (https://www.facebook.com/groups/261717824304503/)

    We know that a Schmutz was on the summit that day but "it will always remain a mystery if Rolex was literally on the summit". Yes it will. Always.

    Smiths is not a "wannabe" (as a certain website claims) but Rolex is a "maybe" and that is as much as we can say.

    I think I'll wear an Omega today. I've had enough of the other two for a bit.
    Of course, there was an Omega on the Mountain in 1953, and not just any Omega, but a CK2287, one of the worldís first waterproof chronographs (in 1943) featuring the direct predecessor to the legendary 321 movement, the CH27. It was worn by Griffith Pugh and used to time many of his experiments that helped guarantee the success of the expedition.
    Last edited by M4tt; 15th March 2019 at 20:05.

  26. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by tempfort View Post
    I have enjoyed watching this thread develop as a result of some very informed contributions and reasoned discussion. It would be a shame to watch you engage with one who appears to not be interested in the facts. To do it so forensically gives the reader the impression that it is more about ego and not the subject.
    As for asking if I have anything to add, I think you are being disingenuous, you clearly demonstrate the intellect to comprehend my intention.
    Can we return to the journey as I pressed the stop button by mistake.
    Nigel
    Cool. Actually, as I pointed out repeatedly, heís doing his own case (and that of coolaid quaffing Rolex fanboys everywhere) a massive disservice by his actions. Iím looking at the big picture, and aware that all the nonsense propagated by people like Stahl, Jake, Holbrook and their ilk will hang around getting hits well after this thread is forgotten. Thus, while itís tedious and not fun, the opportunity to reiterate many of the points in engagement with someone who thinks as many do is invaluable for changing the internet narrative.

    This may sound pretentious, but Iíve been around long enough to know that, in my own little way, what I write does have an effect from time to time. Every so often I get enthusiastic about something and try to fully understand it. Arguing the hell out of it on the internet often gets the sort of experience you have to pay money to Universities for. Between us weíve challenged our knowledge, pushed each other to research, verify and confirm our findings and had a bit of fun.

    I wasnt being disengenious. I was being disapproving. ĎNutter on the busí just doesnít fit and invites others to take the low road. Iím as guilty as any from time to time, but when I manage not to you can see how it can be a pain. Iím sorry I was snarky.

  27. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt View Post
    Cool. Actually, as I pointed out repeatedly, heís doing his own case (and that of coolaid quaffing Rolex fanboys everywhere) a massive disservice by his actions. Iím looking at the big picture, and aware that all the nonsense propagated by people like Stahl, Jake, Holbrook and their ilk will hang around getting hits well after this thread is forgotten. Thus, while itís tedious and not fun, the opportunity to reiterate many of the points in engagement with someone who thinks as many do is invaluable for changing the internet narrative.

    This may sound pretentious, but Iíve been around long enough to know that, in my own little way, what I write does have an effect from time to time. Every so often I get enthusiastic about something and try to fully understand it. Arguing the hell out of it on the internet often gets the sort of experience you have to pay money to Universities for. Between us weíve challenged our knowledge, pushed each other to research, verify and confirm our findings and had a bit of fun.

    I wasnt being disengenious. I was being disapproving. ĎNutter on the busí just doesnít fit and invites others to take the low road. Iím as guilty as any from time to time, but when I manage not to you can see how it can be a pain. Iím sorry I was snarky.
    I have a draft thread running in my head and it doesn't usually spill out via the keyboard. I understood that you were being disapproving re the 'nutter on the bus', the 'disingenuous' or 'snarky' was aimed at the 'if you have anything to add' comment.
    I don't think for one minute 'he thinks as many do', he just revels in exercising a counter argument in an attempt to put an educated poster down and so feeding the ego.
    I do appreciate your efforts to change the internet narrative and had missed that intention.

  28. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by tempfort View Post
    I have a draft thread running in my head and it doesn't usually spill out via the keyboard. I understood that you were being disapproving re the 'nutter on the bus', the 'disingenuous' or 'snarky' was aimed at the 'if you have anything to add' comment.
    I don't think for one minute 'he thinks as many do', he just revels in exercising a counter argument in an attempt to put an educated poster down and so feeding the ego.
    I do appreciate your efforts to change the internet narrative and had missed that intention.
    Thanks.

    However, I feel quite certain that he is both sincere and does indeed think as many do. Frankly, I really like Rolex and have a very soft spot indeed for their smaller tool watches. However, really struggle with many Rolex owners and the degree of defensiveness, even offensiveness displayed by a sizeable minority of them. That Rolex seem to feed this with misleading vaunt and company habit of giving watches to winners so they can later feed off the awareness that Rolex is a watch worn by winners, post hoc ergo propter hoc.

    And I’m really not sure if egos, in the technical sense you are using the word, exist, but that’s probably a different argument.

  29. #329
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    Although I applaud your extensive level of research, I donít much care for the condescending manner of presenting it or countering an argument. Whilst I find Rev-Oís contributions to be very entertaining, and Broussardís pithy and to the point, Iím often left wondering whether your posts are more about demonstrating how clever and well trained you are than setting the record straight. Iím incredibly interested in this subject and have been following the thread from the start but Iím afraid that I frequently lose interest before getting to the end of your posts.

    This was initially intended for the Draft Thread but sod it, you might as well know how I feel even though I donít expect anything other than a smart aleck response.

  30. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Curta View Post
    I find Rev-Oís contributions to be very entertaining
    Always glad to make you smile dear boy, now be a love and pop my Benson in the post will you?






    (How's that for amusing?)

  31. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Curta View Post
    Although I applaud your extensive level of research, I donít much care for the condescending manner of presenting it or countering an argument. Whilst I find Rev-Oís contributions to be very entertaining, and Broussardís pithy and to the point, Iím often left wondering whether your posts are more about demonstrating how clever and well trained you are than setting the record straight. Iím incredibly interested in this subject and have been following the thread from the start but Iím afraid that I frequently lose interest before getting to the end of your posts.

    This was initially intended for the Draft Thread but sod it, you might as well know how I feel even though I donít expect anything other than a smart aleck response.
    I'm sorry that you feel that way and while, as you can imagine, it feels like a smack in the mouth, from someone I have enjoyed interacting with, I applaud your honesty and it's hardly the first time I've been told that. That's just how I write. The few people who have met me will be able to tell you it's not how I speak.

    I think that's me done.

  32. #332
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    TBH my comments reflect my own lack of patience as much as anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rev-O View Post
    Always glad to make you smile dear boy, now be a love and pop my Benson in the post will you?

    (How's that for amusing?)
    Yeah, that's very funny

  33. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Curta View Post
    Although I applaud your extensive level of research, I donít much care for the condescending manner of presenting it or countering an argument. Iím often left wondering whether your posts are more about demonstrating how clever and well trained you are than setting the record straight. Iím incredibly interested in this subject and have been following the thread from the start but Iím afraid that I frequently lose interest before getting to the end of your posts.

    This was initially intended for the Draft Thread but sod it, you might as well know how I feel even though I donít expect anything other than a smart aleck response.
    I think Matt just gets very involved and intense, forensic and pedantic. That's a skill but doesn't always make for light or easy reading. I count you as friend Matthew but you didn't have to let Matt know how you feel. Not everything we think or feel needs to be shared. Some things can be left unsaid.



    Quote Originally Posted by M4tt View Post
    I'm sorry that you feel that way and while, as you can imagine, it feels like a smack in the mouth, from someone I have enjoyed interacting with, I applaud your honesty and it's hardly the first time I've been told that. That's just how I write. The few people who have met me will be able to tell you it's not how I speak.

    I think that's me done.
    That's a good point. Some people come across better in person. The written word lacks all the non-verbal cues and clues that mean so much in real life communications. Visual aspects such as body language and facial expressions and aural ones, too (tone, volume, etc).

    I probably come across better in writing than in person!

    I'm thinking about this a bit at the moment as my job involves me speaking in public and I'm good with words but there's a good chance I'll be on Radio 4 on Wednesday speaking to millions of people (whom I can't see) about a complex and sensitive subject (antidepressants and specifically the difficulty of reducing and coming off them). It's a personally painful topic for me (I think the kids call it "triggering") and so for all those reasons I am, quite frankly, dreading it.

    How we come across -- whether in person, in writing or when speaking unseen and unseeing -- is a tricky one. We can only be ourselves and one person may not be another person's cup of tea. That's life. Judge by the content and intention is probably the best advice I can give.

    Peace to you both -- funny that you share the same name and I consider you both to be intelligent and insightful. Your contributions here have been much approached by me.

  34. #334
    Master Mr Curta's Avatar
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    You are right, I let my frustrations with some of the exchanges get the better of me and I'm sorry for that.

    When might you be on the radio on Wednesday? I wish you all the best with the daunting task.

    M

  35. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Curta View Post
    You are right, I let my frustrations with some of the exchanges get the better of me and I'm sorry for that.

    When might you be on the radio on Wednesday? I wish you all the best with the daunting task.

    M
    Thanks. Possibly on "PM" with Evan Davis, sometime between 5 and 6. Of course, they might not use my contribution or something big might happen that day and I get the chop. We'll see. I'm surprisingly nervous about it. Been a long time since I did anything out of my comfort zone.

  36. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev-O View Post
    Thanks. Possibly on "PM" with Evan Davis, sometime between 5 and 6. Of course, they might not use my contribution or something big might happen that day and I get the chop. We'll see. I'm surprisingly nervous about it. Been a long time since I did anything out of my comfort zone.
    The very best of luck on the airwaves Rev-O, I will keep an ear out. Not only as it is you but as it is a very important topic that affects a much larger % of the population than publicly admits to it.

  37. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by size11s View Post
    The very best of luck on the airwaves Rev-O, I will keep an ear out. Not only as it is you but as it is a very important topic that affects a much larger % of the population than publicly admits to it.
    Thanks. I’d much rather be discussing the contents of this thread. Or maybe just “Smiths watches 1942-1970”, surely my specialist subject on “Mastermind” and a much easier one for me intellectually and emotionally.

    At least Evan is also a biker so when I turn up in leathers carrying a helmet I’m hoping we can stick to sprockets and tyres and he’ll forget to ask me about SSRI discontinuation and extended tapering regimes.

  38. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev-O View Post
    Thanks. Iíd much rather be discussing the contents of this thread. Or maybe just ďSmiths watches 1942-1970Ē, surely my specialist subject on ďMastermindĒ and a much easier one for me intellectually and emotionally.

    At least Evan is also a biker so when I turn up in leathers carrying a helmet Iím hoping we can stick to sprockets and tyres and heíll forget to ask me about SSRI discontinuation and extended tapering regimes.
    Not to make light of a most serious topic but it might help diffuse the tension and will certainly amuse your watch aware listeners if you tried to get the words 'bolt spring' into the discussion, or perhaps easier, 'hair spring' . I believe barristers task each other with similar random words in summations in court, outrageous misbehaviour really!

  39. #339
    Funnily enough the interview is taking place at the Mailbox studio in Birmingham ó not far from the old Dennison watch case works. I think the building that housed the factory is still there.

    Did you know that a Dennison Aquatite was the first watch case to the summit of Everest? Thereís a thread about it somewhere . . . .

  40. #340
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    Aaron Lufkin Dennison (b.1812) seems like a rather interesting character. He founded Waltham in the U.S. before moving to Zurich where he was eventually involved in setting up IWC. It wasn't until around his 60th year that he started the Birmingham based high quality watch case business that became so successful. After ALD died in 1895 his son Franklin took over and the rest, as they say, is history.

  41. #341
    New thread started on the issue of tapering off ADs (antidepressants not Authorised Dealers -- although I suspect some people her need that more!) here:

    https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...05#post5051705

  42. #342

  43. #343
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    6098 Explorer at auction

    I am not stirring any pudding but thought this might be of interest here, a 6098 with explorer on the dial.....particularly the text of the auction listing. It made a very healthy price I thought at £13,500 + fees. Nice watch too.
    https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...f-aa3100decbb7


  44. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by size11s View Post
    I am not stirring any pudding but thought this might be of interest here, a 6098 with explorer on the dial.....particularly the text of the auction listing. It made a very healthy price I thought at £13,500 + fees. Nice watch too.
    https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/a...f-aa3100decbb7


    Iíve got one of those:


  45. #345
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    Hi Matt, is this just the auction house playing fast and loose with the facts as 1952 (as they suggest) is too early to have Explorer on the dial, surely. I know very little about Rolex I admit. Is yours an early 6098 with Explorer on the dial too?

  46. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by size11s View Post
    Hi Matt, is this just the auction house playing fast and loose with the facts as 1952 (as they suggest) is too early to have Explorer on the dial, surely. I know very little about Rolex I admit. Is yours an early 6098 with Explorer on the dial too?
    It looks to me like itís just a Franken. The point of my joke was that if you look at the picture of my Rolex case, it has an Omega movement. I built it as a bit of a joke about a decade ago.

    As for the auction, the dial is all wrong, the hands are all wrong, the case is correct for a 6098 as it is a two rather than three part case. The crown could be correct, but is not seen on any watch whatsoever with a legitimate connection with Everest. I could carry on.

    As for the claims made, the source isnít one Iím aware of as a public source and it seems to match a misunderstanding of the, themselves odd, claims about thirteen plus seven watches addressed earlier in this thread. The idea that Rolex gave twenty watches to the ten man Cho Oyu expedition is risible.

    In short itís the old story. Foolish greedy people got bilked.

  47. #347
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    Thanks Matt, I confess I didn't study your pic. It never ceases to amaze me how folk choose to believe things and then spend large amounts of cash according to that belief. The tiniest bit of research would show that the description of the watch was misleading, even I knew it was very likely wrong for goodness sake! Which is why I posted it, £13.5k fr a wrong 'un, hopefully it will get returned to the auction house under lack of due diligence on their behalf.

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