What's it with the whole 'vintage' craze?

[Wooster]

In the last few years or so, most major watch brands have definitely gone into the vintage craze. There're dozens and dozens of models which include heritage or anniversary edition somewhere in the name. Lots of vintage-ized lume, 'aged' cases (latest Zenith CP2 is illustrative), fonts from the 20's, cathedral hands, riveted bracelets, etc, etc.

I'm not against it by default, although I'd probably be happier if I'd see less of all these shades of brown lume. Some models are actually interesting reissues/ interpretations, such as the recent Longines Avigation Big Eye (still not clear though of which original watch is it a reissue - one from the 30's or one from the 70's...).

I'm wondering however why are all these brands so driven towards re-inventing past models. Some more or less creative/ sane hypotheses of mine are as follows:

• The pre-electronic/ pre-PC past sounds like a better, more simpler place; words like bucolic and idyllic spring to mind
• Back then, men were tougher, could repair cars, hack wood and build a cabin in the woods; fishing was in; also, it was OK to seduce women
• The nouveau riche need vintage looking pieces so as to appear less nouveau
• The future ain't what it used to be, so we might as well go back to the past
• Watch brands are out of ideas (least probable hypothesis, really)

I'm wondering what the local residents think about this - what's your opinion about all these original replicas and about why there seem more and more of them.

Cheers,
Christian (not taking himself too seriously though)

[Derivative]

Interesting question. Your hypotheses are stabs in the right direction I reckon.

I’ll reinforce some of the points you make by saying that, in this increasingly fragmented, over-informed and uncertain age, having history / an anchor in the past, is increasingly important, especially for a brand.
Hence the relentless resurrection of past achievements...

Brands might have also realised that the people with money to spend on luxury items such as watches (I.e. baby boomers), were nostalgic for their youth... and are duly serving it up to them.

My 2 pence - I’m certain others will have better insights, and I look forward to reading them


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[chrisparker]

It's the state of the market right now. Smartwatch brands are running away with innovation, so the traditional watch makers are looking to the past.

Look at Rolex, their most desirable model is a chronograph Jesus probably wore, updated with a ceramic bezel to modernise it. Meanwhile tech giants, who've been in the watch industry for a nano-second are producing stuff that Marty McFly could only dream of.

I don't imaging the big boys will launch anything interesting at Baselworld... more ceramic, anniversary special additions, and new bezel colours.

[kevkojak]

Vintage watches have become a massively valued and widely traded commodity over the last decade... just talk to Mike Wood and some of the other big vintage Rolex collectors (Haywood Milton certainly) about what they used to pick up milsubs and reds for!
Now they are valuable and "cool" again the public start to aspire to own them, further driving the prices up. All the brands have done is look at the market trends and hop straight on the bandwagon.

I guess the question is, why were those 60s and 70s watches that you couldn't give away in 2005 then red hot in 2015? Old omega watches that I used to buy and swap for £50 - £100 when I got into the hobby suddenly jumped to triple that in a year or two and now bring considerably more still. I still don't get the huge sudden clamour for pretty generic looking vintage watches but it's a booming market and no mistake.

[markrlondon]

• The pre-electronic/ pre-PC past sounds like a better, more simpler place; words like bucolic and idyllic spring to mind
• Back then, men were tougher, could repair cars, hack wood and build a cabin in the woods; fishing was in; also, it was OK to seduce women
• The nouveau riche need vintage looking pieces so as to appear less nouveau
• The future ain't what it used to be, so we might as well go back to the past
• Watch brands are out of ideas (least probable hypothesis, really)

All of the above.

In brief, vintage is a symptom of the pushback against the new-puritanism.

[markrlondon]

It's the state of the market right now. Smartwatch brands are running away with innovation, so the traditional watch makers are looking to the past.

Look at Rolex, their most desirable model is a chronograph Jesus probably wore, updated with a ceramic bezel to modernise it. Meanwhile tech giants, who've been in the watch industry for a nano-second are producing stuff that Marty McFly could only dream of.

I don't imaging the big boys will launch anything interesting at Baselworld...

For me, the question this begs is: How long until Rolex produce a smartwatch?

Not if, but when.

The vintage craze notwithstanding, the market is changing. Let us not forget that Rolex went quartz when it was the thing. Maybe quartz was later on an embarrassment but things are changing once more.

[Evanssprky]

Nostalgia is big business, people dream of a thatched cottage, a small village pub, an old but simple car, rewarding unstressed jobs with security and regular hours etc etc. A past that only actually existed for a few, but most wish was here now.

[PhiloStan]

When a new design comes out, it only becomes new and fresh for that year. The next year will come and it will become old and undesirable. But if it’s a vintage style or reissue, it won’t have to worry about being old and outdated next year since it is a callback to the past anyway.

Also, releasing vintage reissues shows that the brand has a long history. It may also contribute to some people hunting down the originals and driving up prices.

[Dave+63]

Has anyone considered that the reissue watches often just look good?
A good design will last forever, you only need to look at a speedy pro to see that.

[paskinner]

All mechanical watches look to the past ; all have been technically obsolete for decades. You might as well call for the modernisation of the typewriter. Vintage designs simply acknowledge that history. To 'modernise' the mechanical watch really just drives home how technically pointless they are.

[Murphster]

I suspect social media and the ‘hipster’ aesthetic also play a part in this. I also think demand for watchmaking services will see quite an increase in the coming years.


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[Carl.1]

I like a lot of the vintage designs. It means i can buy a 'vintage' watch that is brand new to me. Such as the Seiko SRP777 so i can have my cake and eat it, meaning i can actually dive with this watch which i would never do with a real vintage watch.
I would have bought the Oris 65 Movember for the same reason if i could have afforded it.

[Mick P]

Lots of products such as cameras, motor bikes and clothing go through retro phases, it is entirely predictable and it widens choice.

[Itsguy]

All mechanical watches are inherently retro, and recall childhood dreams of distant eras when men were men, be it James Bond, pilots, divers, or jet setters. Perhaps it’s a deficiency of our own time that makes these fantasies so romantic. We only really have the androgynous Apple Watch as a symbol of our decade, and it's impressive in its own way, but not terribly romantic, stylish or sexy.

The other great trend of our time is I'm afraid 'bling', and a tendency towards vulgarity. Often when passing through an airport I look at current watches and I'm struck by how en masse, they look absolutely horrible. It makes me wonder why I'm into them at all. Oversized, overpriced, tasteless symbols of consumerism, in almost every case completely lacking in the kind of sophistication and elegance that completed an outfit in the past. They are almost all made with the intention of broadcasting loudly to others, rather than being made for the wearer, and this really defines modern taste. Fortunately there are honorable exceptions, but for the most part, my reaction is to want to back away swiftly, while being strangely fascinated at the same time.

Vintage on the other hand has many advantages. Designs from another era tell a more complex story. The 'I have an expensive watch' statement is softened and becomes something else completely, a reminder that times change, and a much less direct and embarrassing participation in consumerism and inequality. It becomes an interest in design for its own sake. Of course it doesn't hurt either that the watches are in most cases cheaper and often going up in value.

It's a fascinating topic and there's a lot more to be said about why design classics of different eras are so 'hot' at the moment. It's partly the internet, enabling the market and fueling it with images and information, but there’s something else going on too. The fantasies of the past seem more compelling than the ones of the present. The Victorians also had this, looking back in their art to an imagined simpler time, during an era of fast technological progress.

[bobbee]

Aesthetics.
Nostalgia.

[Neil]

It’s probably easier/cheaper to look in the past catalogues than to try to innovate with their designs going forward.

And it’s not just watch companies, there are so many on the ‘Heritage’ bandwagon these days.

Being old I quite like it as things are familiar, but it does make me think the manufacturers are being a little lazy.

Neil

[hopak]

Could the reason be as simple as they just look better?

[Chinnock]

Aesthetics.
Nostalgia.

+
Reliability
Cheaper

[Bobbyf]

I think that some people attach a certain amount of ‘romanticism’ to a vintage looking watch. Harping back to when men were men and they wore their watch whilst doing adventurous things all around the world. Most people don’t get the chance to do this so they now have an opportunity to buy a watch that’s been made to look like it’s already done all these things.
I personally don’t get the fake lume, fake patina etc, I think it looks a bit naff- like the Barbour jackets that you can buy with fake ‘mud’ already sprayed on them. But, I do really like a watch that has nods back to its heritage and some vintage styling but at the same time not pretending to be vintage. I think Oris and Tudor are doing this fairly well at the moment.
Just my personal opinion and each to their own etc...

[Dave+63]

This?

https://s.yimg.com/lo/api/res/1.2/Se...tic.jpg.cf.jpg

Or this?

https://s.yimg.com/lo/api/res/1.2/dY...17.jpeg.cf.jpg

I know which I prefer!

[stefmcd]

All the theories suggested have a plausibility.

I do think the 1960s was a very rich period of design, whether it be clothes, cars, watches etc.

I think the appreciation of these classic designs, combined with running out of ideas (see the fashion industry for how few new 'looks' there are) are ultimately the main driving force.

[dkpw]

This?

https://s.yimg.com/lo/api/res/1.2/Se...tic.jpg.cf.jpg

Or this?

https://s.yimg.com/lo/api/res/1.2/dY...17.jpeg.cf.jpg

I know which I prefer!

Bottom one? As a non motorbike person they look very similar. Sorry.

I don't own a vintage watch and the only one which does appeal is a Speedy. Why? Mainly because of the small changes to the dial, stepped, applied logo etc. Does it justify the higher price, not for me. So aesthetics are key.

[snowman]

Bottom one? As a non motorbike person they look very similar. Sorry.

I must admit, I wasn't really sure, and I suspect the top one is far easier to live with on a regular basis...

I'm with the OP on a dislike (it's a hatred on my part) for "baby poo" lume...

Revisiting classic designs is no problem though.

I agree that the 60s (even 70s) was a good period for watch design, with a lot of imagination and stylish designs - I'm a fan of watches from this era and have more than a few.

Obviously, most people look to buy a new watch, but if an older style appeals, I'm not surprised.

For brands, it's good to raid the back catalogue - 1, it's easier than coming up with whole new designs each time and 2, it reminds people that you're a brand with 'heritage', who've been around for years and will be for many more.

I just wish they could do it without that appalling brown stuff on the dials!

M

[verv]

I like baby poo lume.
I find it a lot less sterile and more mellow than bright white.

[snowman]

I like baby poo lume.
I find it a lot less sterile and more mellow than bright white.

Each to their own, and I'm always happy with genuinely aged lume on older watches, but the baby poo stuff is and looks abjectly affected and fake...

I guess part of the 'problem' is that modern lume doesn't fade in the same way the earlier stuff does, but I'd rather have bright white than faked brown, myself.

M.

[sweets]

A couple of points (some mentioned above)

• Firstly, mechanical watches are all retro or "vintage" to a degree, because as a functional time teller they are way behind the state of the art (Quartz or Smartwatch). So why not go the whole hog and put the vintage movement in a vintage design?
• Secondly, why risk failure on a new, cutting edge design, that you have just invented. Why risk that when the popularity of a vintage design is proven without doubt. It is exactly the same as all the same film franchises etc. It simply reduces risk by re-issuing older designs that are known to sell, rather than making new which may, or may not prove so popular.
• Thirdly, it piggybacks onto the collection of vintage classics. You simply cannot buy a decent original Zenith Cairelli every day. There are not enough out there and they are impossibly expensive. But you can buy the modern re-issue any time you like. It looks nearly the same and is a load cheaper than the original. That makes it an attractive bargain.

Dave

[Foxy100]

Vintage watches have shot up in value and manufacturers can't take a(nother) slice out of a vintage watch sale so they make their own. Benefits are there's a bigger watch enthusiast marketplace now and a company like Omega can knock out a limited edition run of a few thousand safe in the knowledge they'll all be snapped up.

I missed the boat on a decent original Tudor Snowflake but for £3k new I can have a blue Pelagos with the added benefits of being able to wear it in water and know if the bezel gets damaged or whatever I'll be able to get it replaced.

I wanted to like the Pelagos LHD but the fake aged lume put me off. What would be good was if a lume could be used that ages nicely rather than stays bright white and glows green for the rest of time.

[chrisparker]

For me, the question this begs is: How long until Rolex produce a smartwatch?

Not if, but when.

The vintage craze notwithstanding, the market is changing. Let us not forget that Rolex went quartz when it was the thing. Maybe quartz was later on an embarrassment but things are changing once more.

I don't think they will under the Rolex brand. They've got Tudor, so they may under that Brand, or could quite easily acquire a tech brand for the smartwatch segment.

I see Rolex like Steinway & Sons - there will always be a market for tradition, even in a digital world.

[verv]

Each to their own, and I'm always happy with genuinely aged lume on older watches, but the baby poo stuff is and looks abjectly affected and fake...

I guess part of the 'problem' is that modern lume doesn't fade in the same way the earlier stuff does, but I'd rather have bright white than faked brown, myself.

M.

I get around it by just accepting that it's cream or brown lume without bringing fake to the table.

[snowman]

I get around it by just accepting that it's cream or brown lume without bringing fake to the table.

We all find something unduly annoying, this (and cut away digits) is the thing for me!

If the term 'fake' offends, maybe 'unauthentic' is better term.



M

[Itsguy]

I get around it by just accepting that it's cream or brown lume without bringing fake to the table.

I really want to agree, but when it’s on a reproduction vintage watch it’s hard to see it as lume that just happens to be brown, it’s bound to look faux vintage. But it’s true that there’s nothing wrong in principle with making brown or any other coloured lume simply because it looks good.

[village]

The ideas well has run dry so the easiest option,at least until the designers get inspired again,is to reissue old designs.

[Kingstepper]

If people like 'lovely creamy plots' why aren't they just made like that?

[jpjsavage]

I see Rolex like Steinway & Sons - there will always be a market for tradition, even in a digital world.

Having spent quite a bit of time with folk from Steinway & Sons over the last year, I agree with this. There is a huge amount of craftsmanship, artistic awareness, exquisite design and top notch materials in high end musical instruments as well as high end horology. I guess there are many parallels. One obvious one is that both Steinway and Patek were started by immigrant families (one in Switzerland and one in America) at roughly the same time in the 19th century. Their illustrious history are littered with innovative designs, patents for various technical processes, prizes at international exhibitions and, of course, a commitment to the highest quality processes of production and consequent prices! That said, the Steinway mantra is that over a lifetime a Steinway is the most affordable piano you could choose to buy, play, enjoy and pass on.

[Itsguy]

If people like 'lovely creamy plots' why aren't they just made like that?

Well they are now. It was just necessary to age some tritium for 50 years first to get the idea.

[lasz]

It's been implied already that once a design is so old that its "DNA" disappears from a manufacturer's range completely, it almost starts being something new again. Some of these designs turn out to be particularly relevant for the state our tastes of today, and we find them beautiful and we want to be able to buy them again, especially if they're made to contemporary standards in order to be as easy as possible to live with. I do hope the "vintage craze" becomes something normal for many more types of consumer goods - I'd love to be given the choice of buying household items with featuring good industrial design from a certain period. As for watches, I find it unfortunate that vintage reissues automatically rule out quartz movements, of which I am a fan, but maybe I just have to wait ten more years and the 1980s stuff will start coming back with a vengeance.

A lot of very interesting thoughts from previous posters, by the way, looking forward to some more - I enjoy this type of threads a great deal.

[Cool Hand Luke]

Vintage watches have become a massively valued and widely traded commodity over the last decade... just talk to Mike Wood and some of the other big vintage Rolex collectors (Haywood Milton certainly) about what they used to pick up milsubs and reds for!
Now they are valuable and "cool" again the public start to aspire to own them, further driving the prices up. All the brands have done is look at the market trends and hop straight on the bandwagon.

I agree with Kev, i don't really get the clamour for all things vintage but with watches it seems like it's a way for the big brands to get a slice of the vintage market. Plus the whole vintage boom seems to be happening everywhere not just the watch market. You can see the same thing happening with cars, guitars, motorbikes etc.

[P9CLY]

The Longines Conquest Heritage is a great watch,a close tribute to the original Conquest.

[verv]

We all find something unduly annoying, this (and cut away digits) is the thing for me!

If the term 'fake' offends, maybe 'unauthentic' is better term.



M

Why would your opinion offend me?

There are loads of things I hate on watches.

[snowman]

Why would your opinion offend me?

There are loads of things I hate on watches.

Not my opinion (if anyone does take offence at that, I guess it's hard luck ) , but the term 'fake'.

It's not actually purporting to be a different watch or a genuinely 'vintage' watch, so the term 'fake' is perhaps a little unfair.

M

[crazyp]

Unfortunately 'new' designs are too much of a risk to commit to a production run it seem. Especially for the last few years where the market has been a bit slow. I like to use the analogy of films - why do film houses stick to franchises - because they're less likely to be a bust.

[alfat33]

There is the vintage look, and actual vintage watches. Both appeal to me but the latter much more so. I think it is something about the engineering and the practical everyday craftsmanship that went into making them, well before automation, CNC etc. Also I find the connection to real everyday people from the past fascinating which is why I try to research the generally run of the mill watches that I buy.

[verv]

Not my opinion (if anyone does take offence at that, I guess it's hard luck ) , but the term 'fake'.

It's not actually purporting to be a different watch or a genuinely 'vintage' watch, so the term 'fake' is perhaps a little unfair.

M

My opinion is that it's cream or brown luminova.
Yours is that it's fake.
This is a boring debate which wasn't my intention when responding quite idly that I like dark lume.

[Itsguy]

Formula 1 is banning grid girls, and yet men dream of being racing drivers from a bygone era, I wonder why...

[Xantiagib]

“Perhaps if the future existed, concretely and individually, as something that could be discerned by a better brain, the past would not be so seductive: its demands would be balanced by those of the future.”

― Vladimir Nabokov, Transparent Things

[Bluetinfloor]

I would say its about originality and rarity in any collecting community be it watches, motorbikes, LP's, cars, art deco chairs or whatever. The re-issues or newer versions of anything are almost certainly better made, more reliable, easily maintained and more available, but the original vintage versions are likely to have been produced in comparably limited numbers will generally be more expensive and sought after. I think nostalgia is now playing a part in some markets, for example particular motorbikes from the 80's and 90's are now fetching incredible money as those who like me couldn't afford the latest model at the time are buying them in our now middle age and the price rises, but again its about originality and rareness.

[Integrale]

Has anyone considered that the reissue watches often just look good?
A good design will last forever, you only need to look at a speedy pro to see that.

The classic car industry is rife with it at the mo.

Omega are fortunate that they kept their classic (note, not vintage) models going. Others who have ceased production, and then appreciate a demand for a classic model, rightly take the opportunity to modernise and re-issue.

I don't feel it's correct to re-issue the same watch as this undermines true vintage models. There is a limit externally however to what can acceptably be altered, whilst remaining true to the original (size, bezel).

The idea of owning a vintage watch is appealing, but too much of an unknown quantity for most folk. Remember most current buyers of a re-issues will never have seen or heard of the original. They are also generally too small when viewed alongside modern pieces. Perhaps not when seen in isolation on the wrist.

We should celebrate renewed interest in classics.

I'd rather wear and enjoy a re-issue than never see, own or heaven forbid, wear an original. Finding a good enough quality original to wear and enjoy is difficult.

[snowman]

My opinion is that it's cream or brown luminova.
Yours is that it's fake.
This is a boring debate which wasn't my intention when responding quite idly that I like dark lume.

Indeed, let's move on.

M

[Bobbyf]

I do hope the "vintage craze" becomes something normal for many more types of consumer goods.

I think it has? Go into any type of shop, whether it be furniture, clothes, motorbikes etc and you’ll see merchandise with a vintage or retro feel to it.
Im sat here in a pair of Adidas Samba trainers, jeans with turn ups and a vintage inspired t shirt. On a 60’s inspired sofa!

But I still don’t like vintage lume...

[Dave+63]

Bottom one? As a non motorbike person they look very similar. Sorry.

I must admit, I wasn't really sure, and I suspect the top one is far easier to live with on a regular basis...

They’re both 2018 models and are equally easy to live with; the first is a Speed triple which is bang up to date style wise whilst the second is a Thruxton which, whilst thoroughly modern, harks back to designs from the sixties.

I just felt it was a good analogy; I suppose it’s the same argument as that between the five and six digit submariners/GMTs.