Agreed 100%. It can't be a good feeling knowing you're possibly getting treated as the 2nd fiddle despite the Red Bull marketing machine suggesting otherwise (while knowing we can read between the lines)Originally Posted by Backward point
Assuming the news about Danny is true, I am not surprised to be honest. He has consistently out performed MV since he joined the team, yet MV still seems to be the "chosen one". The "emperors new clothes" springs to mind.
However given that DR still wants to be a WC and given that he will be unable to do that with Ferrari, Mercedes or RB, them the logical choice had to be either Renault or Maclaren (assuming Alonso decided to go). If not then Renault was the perfect choice.
Good luck to him.
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
I haven't fact-checked this however I think I'm correct in saying saying that only two teams have confirmed their drivers for next season - Mercedes and Renault. Ferrari have Vettel on the books and Red Bull Verstappen, and that's it.
So that's 6 teams that don't have a single driver contracted, two that only have one and two that have both. With the shock move from DR the silly season has only just begun! Who's going to be without a seat when the music stops?
Best (by which I mean random) guesses? Ferrari to sign Kimi and Red Bull to sign Sainz, both on single year contracts. Leclerc and Gasly to stay where they are, one as Ferrari's back-up plan and the other Red Bull's. Magnussen to stay put at Haas, Grosjean only to stay put if he pulls his finger out pronto. Bye bye Hartley, hello Sainz if he's not at RB, and if Sainz does find himself at Torro Rosso then Gasly will take the RB seat and Sainz will feel a little sick. Alonso and Vandorne to leave McLaren, the former leaves the sport and Vandorne gets himself a test/reserve driver role, Sainz to take a McLaren seat if he's not at RB/TR. Stroll to either stay at Williams or move to Force India, Mercedes to sneak George Russell in as a replacement for Sirotkin if Stroll stays. Antonion Giovanizzi to take a Sauber seat should one become available, quite possibly if Ferrari calls upon Leclerc if Kimi's out. Perez and Ocon to stay at Force India, though there's a chance one of them - Ocon - will move to McLaren.
Now watch none of that happen.
I think you've covered pretty much every potential move there, although I'll throw in Leclerc to Haas, replacing Grosjean, because at some point Gunther Steiner's patience will be exhausted, and Grosjean will be shown la porte.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Interesting to see who replaces DR, I am sure RB wanted to keep him. What stands out at the moment is there Isnt an obvious senior driver to pair with MV unless they can persuade Fernando to have one last go.
Last edited by TBKBABAB; 6th August 2018 at 09:12.
Interesting idea but what happens if/when alonso is faster than Max? The team is being built around him and his future so I can’t see anything g other than a subservient no.2 going there now. Although I’d like to see Gasly up against Max as I’m still not convinced Max is anything other than Grosjean/Maldonado mk.2
Alonso in a RB would be great to see, I would love to see him in a decent car again before he leaves F1.
Cheers..
Jase
Don't think it will happen, RB could've had Alonso before but they went for Kvyat instead!
Would love to see him in a competitive car again before he disappears but I feel he'd show up max on a fairly regular basis. I'm no fan of max, obviously he has talent otherwise RB wouldn't be putting so much stock in him but to essentially let the huge talent like DR walk away I think could be a major set back for them.
Could be a good stop gap for RB and a swansong for Alonso to get a few wins before retiring. Whether he would want to drive a car with another Honda engine is another question, as is whether it could win races
Surely it's not beyond the realms that the damage done and resultant scarring left him compromised in that regard?
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Iirc there were some off the books handshakes between RB and Ferrari that stopped him going before. Great driver, but he doesn't seem capable of maintaining the relationships that would get him in the right car.
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Alonso in a Red Bull would be great, but I think his relationship with Honda is so awful they would veto any such move. His "Formula 2 engine" and similar comments did not go down well.
I'd beg to differ, "the Rat" is nearrly 70 yrs old.
Don't get me wrong, I wish him well but I don't think it's directly related. Unless of course he's had a b@stard of a cough all these years and kept schtum about it.
A quote from the doctor that did the transplant:
"One can absolutely assume that lung transplantation is not a late consequence of the fire accident,"
So despite the earlier reports, as you say this does not appear to be related to the accident all those years ago.
Probably true unfortunately, don't think it would do Max any harm to have such an experienced team mate for a year or two.
Not surprised to see Ricciardo leave RBR, he didn’t play his hand well prior to Mercedes confirming their line up. There doesn’t appear to be a vacancy at Ferrari, doubt Vettel would want him as a team mate, and I think Horner is clearly building the team around Verstappen so little opportunity if he stayed there.
Next best thing is Renault who are at least a works team with aspirations. In any event he will only sign up til 2020, the end of current regs. I do think his chances of a WDC have probably passed him by.
I can see RBR pulling out of F1 if Honda don’t come up with a decent engine and the 2021 regs are not to their liking.
Likewise Mercedes in respect of the latter, they have nothing left to prove. I think they could remain in the game as solely an engine and parts supplier which could be a boost to the garagistas, if only MacLaren and Williams can get their acts together before they run out of patience/money.
Last edited by JeremyO; 6th August 2018 at 20:54.
Horner is doing as he is told
i don’t doubt that for a moment.
Indeed, that Geri Halliwell isn't someone to mess about with.
McLaren news, and it appears that there are changes afoot at Director level for all of the Group companies:
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-a8480086.html
The article is by Christian Sylt, who is generally known as a business reporter who specialises in Formula 1, and is a reliable source of information. Interestingly, it's in the general press, and not (yet) on the F1 sites such as Pitpass, for whom Sylt is a regular contributor.
Companies House records confirm the resignations. There is, however, an article supposedly denying that the moves are anything other than a tidying-up of Directorial structures, and there is no change to shareholdings - since the departure of Ron Dennis Mansour Ojjeh and Mumtalakat own half of the shares each.
http://www.f1i.com/news/313543-mclar...our-ojjeh.html
I have no knowledge of F1i.com, so whether or not the article is credible remains to be seen.
Mansour Ojjeh has been in poor health for several years, and had a double lung transplant in 2013.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Force India have been saved by a consortium lead by Lawrence Stroll.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...es-force-india
Force "Canada"! As a son, it must be difficult to feel independently successful when your Father has financial muscle to this extent.
Called it
Whoever does not know how to hit the nail on the head should be asked not to hit it at all.
Friedrich Nietzsche
Great news for FI, for the matter to be resolved so quickly it will bring some peace to the team and its employees over the Summer holiday, it should also provide a source of motivation when they're back at the factory. One can reasonably presume that Stroll Jnr will be joining the team, I would guess at the expense of Ocon however who knows?
If Lance leaves, how are Williams going to fill their vacancy? I hope that whoever it is has deep pockets.
There has been some more speculation around Sainz and McLaren with the possibility of an all Spanish driver line-up should Alonso stay, though you've got to wonder what Alonso"s motivation is. There's little hope of a race win in the near future let alone another DC, I can't see him being in it just for the paycheck so perhaps he's in it because, despite McLaren's shortfalls, he's still enjoying what he does and feels he can contribute to the team.
Good news indeed - I like FI and they've been doing well. I also like the pink livery.
If Stroll Sr has any sense he'll realise the current driver line up is far stronger = better returns on his investment. Perez is many, many times a better driver than Lance. Ocon is a Mercedes driver so unless FI wants to pay more for their engines, again, not great business sense, I think he is more secure. Now, FI is clearly a better car than Williams and maybe Lance will get better results but from what I've seen thus far he is distinctly average.
Good points ref FI retaining Perez and Ocon as they'd almost certainly make the most race and cost effective pairing, I just can't see Stroll Snr's financing not having influence on the line-up though. Pre-judgemental on my part, granted.
He's not the only person backing the team so there's a chance that someone will do the sums and realise what they already have is the better option. If I were either of the current drivers I'd be miffed if I had to make way for LS because of his father's actions.
Well quite...although I think both would probably land somewhere decent even on an interim deal.
Good news indeed re Force India but it does make me even more nervous whether Williams will survive as a team. I do hope so, we need the independent teams to thrive.
one of them needs to get ready to be miffed then, of course daddy is doing it to keep his talentless son in a race seat.
Dmitry Mazepin was also trying to but Force India to give his son Nikita an F1 seat, he may be willing to use his Billions in the same way that Lawrence Stroll did. This could get Williams out from the dire financial situation they also look to be in.
Otherwise would Mercedes place Ocon there and give Williams cheap/free engines in exchange?
What a waste of Ocon’s talent that would be!
I am sorry, Frank Williams created a brilliant team with an outstanding history. But it’s looking more and more like an irrelevance.
'Against stupidity, the gods themselves struggle in vain' - Schiller.
Agreed, but there are not many other options available to him for next year. Otherwise it may be a Mercedes reserve/test driver role, that would be far worse.
I think this is a tad unfair. The car is utter crap at the moment, I don’t think even Alonso who is renowned for getting the best out of underperforming cars could get the Williams further up the ladder.
Let’s not forget, Stroll has had a podium finish.
He got a podium after all the other drivers decided to bump into each other. if cash made talent he would be leading the WDC..................he's useless and taking up a seat that a good driver should be sitting in, weren't Kubitza and Di resta both faster in testing................................in the same car?
Not quite.
He doesn’t have a history of smashing his car up all the time ala Grosjean, Maldonado and to a lesser extent,Max.
Let’s not forget that he’s still only 19 years old. Is he the best driver on the grid, far from it but to call him talentless is somewhat flippant imho.
https://www.planetf1.com/news/vettel...r-than-stroll/
Talentless, Stroll is only there because of daddies cash
You've made no secret of your dislike of Lance Stroll, but the facts are that he qualifies to race in F1 by virtue of having a Superlicence, and last season he probably produced the results that his car was capable of.
The 2018 Williams has a fundamental aerodynamic flaw affecting the airflow to the rear wing and diffuser, which makes it unstable on turn-in to fast corners, and there's not a driver in the world capable of overcoming that. Whether Stroll Jr leaves Williams for Force India is not a foregone conclusion, and he doesn't have the experience of Perez or the natural ability of Ocon, but he's capable of producing regular points finishes if the car allows.
The consortium which is in the process of taking over Force India may be fronted by Lawrence Stroll, but it is comprised of some very big hitters in the world of global clothing retail, men who have made fortunes in a very competitive and unforgiving market. And aren't looking to lose them any time soon. The continued involvement of Sergio Perez, which looks likely, means that the team will continue its association with Carlos Slim, himself no mug when it comes to business. The choice of driver lies with the team owners.
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Would you like to have a really big rant about this, and then give it a rest?
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
No not really, but it is a fact that everyone who has sat in the car has been faster. Williams needed the cash and the drives went to the highest bidders, it’s a huge shame that such a great team has needed to adopt this desperate strategy.
But Williams haven't suddenly got themselves into this position. They have lived beyond their means for years, they have a very expensive infrastructure to maintain, and they haven't had the results that they need. A Mercedes engine supply doesn't come cheap, nor does it guarantee results, but although Valtteri Bottas's move to Mercedes gave them a free engine supply for last season, they continue to haemorrhage cash.
What would your solution be? How does a failing Formula 1 team earn the money to pay the staff, engineers and the bills?
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Stroll did pretty well in 2016 beating George Russell, Callum Illot And a whole bunch of others who are now in GP3 and F2, think it was actually a bit of a mistake jumping straight from F3 to F1 but guess you take the opportunity when it’s there.
For a start, they seem to be able to offer shares to senior staff(I don’t know if this is in place of salary) maybe they could offer something similar to a top driver,
It’s odd that they are the only team that got the aero so wrong,
Maybe an IPO, I would buy some
Last edited by adrianw; 8th August 2018 at 19:02.
I agree on both points, but the top drivers wouldn't be interested in committing themselves, and their reputations, to a team in what has looked for some time as a team in terminal decline. What would the shares be worth if they finish last in the Constructors' Championship and don't qualify for a share of the TV rights money for the following season, at the same time as their title sponsor leaves?
In my opinion they were fortunate to have the considerable experience of Felipe Massa for so long, alongside Valtteri Bottas. The two were capable of bringing their cars home and scoring good points, but Massa felt that his time in F1 was over, and Mercedes made Williams an offer that they couldn't refuse for Bottas.
Williams' shares are quoted on the Frankfurt Stock Exchange, and they are obliged to issue notices in the form of Profits Warnings should the circumstances require, which will, of course, impact on the share value. So how to increase the value of the Company, and the shares? The answer is to improve liquidity, by seeking an injection of cash. And the way to do that, if you're a Formula 1 team, is by a large sponsorship deal, or an investor.
Pay drivers are nothing new in Formula 1. Niki Lauda paid for his first drive with BRM, Fernando Alonso paid to drive for Minardi, the history of the sport is filled with drivers who bought their way in. Years ago the rules were changed to keep the likes of Hector Rebaque and other journeymen out, principally for the safety of the other drivers, and in a similar vein over-ambitious teams found the barriers to entry raised after the likes of Life and Andrea Moda found that they had bitten off more than they could chew.
But if a driver qualifies for a Superlicence, by winning or finishing second in an approved FIA Championship and gathering enough points to earn one, they are allowed in, if they can find a drive. And if that drive is paid for by financing one of the great teams which has, in the past, won several Championships, then that's how it is.
Nobody has to like it, and the laws of natural selection will sort the wheat from the chaff, and any team which keeps propping up the Constructors' Championship table will go to the wall, leaving suppliers and staff unpaid.
The aero question is a mystery, and those responsible have already paid the price. I mentioned a while ago that wind tunnels have become too narrow to be reliable, as the outwash from the front wings bounces back from the tunnel walls and gives unreliable results, so this, coupled with the problem of measuring flow as a car changes direction won't have helped. The 2017 Williams was probably the slipperiest car in the field, and maybe they pushed that aspect too far, sacrificing downforce for low drag. Whatever happened, they haven't been able to solve the basic problem in the first half of the season, so unless they have some sort of epiphany, they may be stuck with the problem for the second half of the season as well. And to think, during the late 1980's and early 1990's Frank Williams and Patrick Head could have made a young Adrian Newey a shareholder in the team, and kept him on board...
I would be asking questions about the roles of Paddy Lowe and Rob Smedley within the team. They both have long and successful associations with other teams, so why can't they use that expertise to turn around the fortunes of what should be a well-resourced team?
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
The wind tunnel size is why so many now use the Toyota one in Germany as it is big enough to avoid the outwash issue. Even McLaren can’t use their on site one now. The fact there are limits on testing means that the Toyota tunnel is viable for multiple teams.
Alonso not competing in F1 next year then - https://www.mclaren.com/formula1/tea...onso-decision/
So who’s the replacement? Too early for Lando Norris I’d say, plus not exactly a strong experience level if paired with Vandoorne.
No wonder they tried to secure Ricciardo.
https://twitter.com/alo_oficial
Carlos Sainz? There can't be much of a queue for the drive, and Sainz keeps being mentioned - although he's still contracted to Red Bull, so his alternative appears to be No2 to Verstappen in a Honda-powered Red Bull. A waste of his talent, either way?
Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.
Most likely Sainz (the poor bugger).
We sure Sainz isn't going to RBR to be back up to Max given he's still under contract? edit: See this point has been raised
Anyhow...so long Fred. Amazing career and I've enjoyed Alonso these past few seasons, the self-depreciating nature of a man who can only laugh, and rant a little about the situation he found himself in - if nothing else that deckchair pic will be remembered for a long, long time even if the recent results won't.
I see the McLaren line up next year as being Carlos Sainz and Lando Norris. I can's see Vandoorne keeping his place, he has not shown the speed that would allow him to keep his place. McLaren need an experienced, quick lead driver and there are not many available.
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