Formula 1 2018

[watchcollector1]

Cretin.

No need for personal insults.

I had a quick scan of the article and couldn't really see an opinion on what happened either but it's long so I may have missed it.

Personally I'm a bit surprised about the stick Max is getting (for the collision anyway). Yes in hindsight he should've just backed out to avoid any risk but he had no obligation to let Ocon through. It was a bold (misguided?) and unexpected move from Ocon to go up the outside of the leader and he wasn't level / ahead when they collided so clearly Ocon's fault hence the penalty.

[Backward point]

Mark Hughes, along with Nigel Roebuck and a small selection of others, is a pre-eminent Formula 1 journalist, and has unrestricted access to anybody who is anybody in the Paddock, so his reports, with the benefit of his many years experience, can be relied upon.

The incident resulted in the loss of a victory for Max Verstappen and the Red Bull team, so emotions were running high, and the aftermath didn't paint Verstappen or Christian Horner in a very favourable light. Ocon was clearly in the wrong (Martin Brundle said on commentary that even if the two drivers were fighting for the race lead, Ocon would have been in the wrong), and the Force India driver has a history of banging wheels and other parts of the car with his own team-mate, so he clearly can't be trusted in close-quarter combat.

Couple that with Verstappen's almost Senna-like belief that he can't hurt himself in a racing car, and the incident yesterday was always likely to end in tears. The two of them have "history" from their karting days, but the bottom line was that Verstappen was the race leader, Ocon was a tail-ender and should never be interlocking wheels with any of the cars who were at least a lap ahead of him. Something else apparently lost on the armchair experts is that at that point of the circuit the cars have very little grip, as they are not moving fast enough to generate any downforce, and the contours of the Senna S means that it's very difficult to change direction mid way through the corner. Verstappen had every right to expect that the track space to his right would be vacant, and as he was ahead anyway, the corner was his. Ocon must have accelerated and put his car partly alongside, albeit on the kerbs. Hence Brundle's view that Ocon was completely to blame.

[watchcollector1]

Mark Hughes, along with Nigel Roebuck and a small selection of others, is a pre-eminent Formula 1 journalist, and has unrestricted access to anybody who is anybody in the Paddock, so his reports, with the benefit of his many years experience, can be relied upon.

The incident resulted in the loss of a victory for Max Verstappen and the Red Bull team, so emotions were running high, and the aftermath didn't paint Verstappen or Christian Horner in a very favourable light. Ocon was clearly in the wrong (Martin Brundle said on commentary that even if the two drivers were fighting for the race lead, Ocon would have been in the wrong), and the Force India driver has a history of banging wheels and other parts of the car with his own team-mate, so he clearly can't be trusted in close-quarter combat.

Couple that with Verstappen's almost Senna-like belief that he can't hurt himself in a racing car, and the incident yesterday was always likely to end in tears. The two of them have "history" from their karting days, but the bottom line was that Verstappen was the race leader, Ocon was a tail-ender and should never be interlocking wheels with any of the cars who were at least a lap ahead of him. Something else apparently lost on the armchair experts is that at that point of the circuit the cars have very little grip, as they are not moving fast enough to generate any downforce, and the contours of the Senna S means that it's very difficult to change direction mid way through the corner. Verstappen had every right to expect that the track space to his right would be vacant, and as he was ahead anyway, the corner was his. Ocon must have accelerated and put his car partly alongside, albeit on the kerbs. Hence Brundle's view that Ocon was completely to blame.

Agreed but he doesn't seem to give a definitive view on what happened in the key incident in the article you posted. Like the other poster said it just seems to be a description of the events and the history between the drivers (but as I said I fully admit I didn't read the whole thing).

Anyway I fully agree with your summary of what happened. Brundle called it straight way as clearly Ocon's fault and I find him to be a good judge. I thought Hamilton's comments afterwards were a bit odd really and people seem to be judging Max on his reputation not the incident itself.

[Backward point]

Agreed but he doesn't seem to give a definitive view on what happened in the key incident in the article you posted. Like the other poster said it just seems to be a description of the events and the history between the drivers (but as I said I fully admit I didn't read the whole thing).

Anyway I fully agree with your summary of what happened. Brundle called it straight way as clearly Ocon's fault and I find him to be a good judge. I thought Hamilton's comments afterwards were a bit odd really and people seem to be judging Max on his reputation not the incident itself.

It's a problem for Max, he's made a reputation for himself which makes other drivers wary of going wheel to wheel with him, and there's the spectre of his less-talented father hanging over him as well.

But is it a bad thing to make other drivers think twice and hesitate before diving for a gap? He doesn't have a power advantage in the Red Bull, although it's undoubtedly the best chassis on the grid at the moment, and the drivers need to use all of their skills and not a little guile to compensate - Ricciardo has a reputation as the best overtaker, and the last of the late brakers, in Formula 1, and Max is one of the most difficult to overtake, not least as a result of some fairly uncompromising moves under braking.

We can't complain about a lack of overtaking, and some say that DRS makes it easier. Drivers need to do what they can to protect their position, and if Verstappen makes it harder to displace him, albeit within the (clarified) rules, does it not make races more interesting?

[Andyg]

Cretin.

Nice.

Must have gone to the same charm school as Max.

FYI Joyless Palmer said it was Ocon fault for trying to unlap himself, however had Ocon been challenging for the lead it would have been MV fault. Quality

[JeremyO]

Cretin.

If you disagree with someone that’s fine but do we really need to revert to personal insults yet again?

[PickleB]

As Ocon sees it...link:

I respect the FIA’s decision but just to be clear, if you are faster you are allowed to unlap yourself. I overtook 7 times into turn 2 this race it was always tight, but always fair...

...with a picture of his car alongside of and wheel to wheel with Alonso going into turn 2.


But:

...he wasn't alongside Verstappen coming out of turn 1. And:

...where did he think Max was heading.


Yes, MV could have given up at turn 1 and let Esteban ahead...it would have avoided what followed. And yes, Ocon would have been sensible to drop back as it was evident at turn 1 that Max wasn't going to give up the racing line. But neither of them were feeling cautious, nor did they want to concede anything to each other.

[Andyg]

..... But neither of them were feeling cautious, nor did they want to concede anything to each other.

As Lewis said, "he (Ocon) had nothing to lose".

Its still disapointing that Max does not believe it's necessary to apologise for his pit lane behaviour. however I think he will soon be yesterday's news once Lecerc gets to grips with his new car.

[PickleB]

From the twittersphere:

[jwillans]

As Lewis said, "he (Ocon) had nothing to lose".

Its still disapointing that Max does not believe it's necessary to apologise for his pit lane behaviour. however I think he will soon be yesterday's news once Lecerc gets to grips with his new car.

I'm confused - Leclerc is driving for Ferrari next year, why would that impact Max? Agree with your comment though, his pit lane behaviour was not appropriate.

[JeremyO]

I'm confused - Leclerc is driving for Ferrari next year, why would that impact Max? Agree with your comment though, his pit lane behaviour was not appropriate.

I presume Andyg means that Leclerc should also have a fast car next season in which to showcase his talents and could overshadow Verstappen with his performance.

I’m not convinced the Honda engine will be measurably better than the Renault engine next season, especially on reliability. Toro Rosso have used 8 Honda power units for each car so far this season.

If Honda do not perform well next year in the Red Bulls, I look forward to Horners reaction!

[Andyg]

I'm confused - Leclerc is driving for Ferrari next year, why would that impact Max? Agree with your comment though, his pit lane behaviour was not appropriate.

Max got a lot of his media attention because of his age. Leclerc is actually only 4 weeks older than him. So nothing to see here.

Also Max is now 21, is no longer the baby of the Grid given the introduction of Norris and Davis.

So now he will be judged on ability and skill (which he has), his temperament, brains, attitude (which is lacking) and his record (especially against Lewis and Vettel ) which is nothing special.

[Backward point]

I suspect that Honda are bringing in development parts and upgrades to use for qualifying and races, rather than replacing power unit elements for reliability reasons. Taking grid penalties in order to force the pace of development.

Toro Rosso have almost certainly been used as a testbed this season, in order to bring Honda up to the level required by Red Bull for next year. I imagine that Dr Marko has given them some fairly stringent performance targets for 2019, and it will be interesting to see how they shape up.

[JeremyO]

I suspect that Honda are bringing in development parts and upgrades to use for qualifying and races, rather than replacing power unit elements for reliability reasons. Taking grid penalties in order to force the pace of development.

Toro Rosso have almost certainly been used as a testbed this season, in order to bring Honda up to the level required by Red Bull for next year. I imagine that Dr Marko has given them some fairly stringent performance targets for 2019, and it will be interesting to see how they shape up.

If that is the case, and I suspect you may well be right, why on earth did they not bring in deveiopment parts and upgrades, etc. whilst powering McLaren?

Marko may well have given them stringent targets and demands but, truth be told, Red Bull have nowhere else to go for power units, having slagged off Renault as they did. They didn’t give Renault much credit either during their winning streak.

As far as I am aware neither Mercedes nor Ferrari are interested in letting RB use one of their power units and who can blame them?

[adrianw]

Toro Rosso have almost certainly been used as a testbed this season, in order to bring Honda up to the level required by Red Bull for next year. I imagine that Dr Marko has given them some fairly stringent performance targets for 2019, and it will be interesting to see how they shape up.

That isn't how it works, Honda would have offered and then both agreed the performance specification, then the program managers would be appointed to project manage the various elements, then the overall timing plan presented by Honda and agreed. Marco would have little input into this. Changes and upgrades would be different projects. this is why the teams can announce when they are bringing their upgrades. they don't change anything on the fly.

[Backward point]

That isn't how it works, Honda would have offered and then both agreed the performance specification, then the program managers would be appointed to project manage the various elements, then the overall timing plan presented by Honda and agreed. Marco would have little input into this. Changes and upgrades would be different projects. this is why the teams can announce when they are bringing their upgrades. they don't change anything on the fly.

Formula 1, and the motorsport industry in general, is different to "normal" business, and with different ideas of how things need to be done.

The process which you've outlined is one of the reasons for the breakdown in Honda's relationship with McLaren in recent years, and Jordan in the days when Gary Anderson was Chief Designer, and was frustrated beyond words that the dogmatic and process-hobbled Japanese couldn't respond and initiate changes and improvements quickly enough.

Honda also viewed the hybrid Formula 1 power unit programme as just another engine project, instead of seeking and appointing their most gifted engineers. Things have changed at Honda in the last twelve months, as they have come to terms with the fact that having their powerplants fail regularly in front of a global audience numbered in billions probably wasn't the kind of publicity that they were hoping for.

[patrick]

From the twittersphere:

Biter gets bitten and doesn't like it

[CardShark]

Without wanting the subject to be hanging around forever I'm going to add my take on the Ocon vs Verstappen incident, and I have to say that I agree with the side that the stewards took regarding their on track collision and I feel that Ocon's penalty was deserved. As someone who was not only unlapping himself but also attempting to overtake the race leader he could have been much wiser in his choice of manoeuvre, yes he was faster and yes he was fully entitled to get that lap back however not in that manner.

Having said that, Verstappen isn't completely off the hook. Ocon may have done the equivalent of running a red light however Max should have seen it coming and instead chose to ignore it, maybe because he was thinking that he was in the right regardless of the consequences. It was foolish to take the line that he did and he paid for it, Ocon should never have been there though Verstappen had opportunity to avoid him. Hamilton is the success he is partly due to his ability to judge situations well, Max would do well to heed the Brit's words.

As for the Dutchman's physical retaliation post race, for me it's a demonstration that he still has [diplomatic]huge potential to mature[/diplomatic]. His boss doesn't help matters, there are ways and means to back your own driver without coming across as being absolutely nothing other than blinkered through sheer bias and Horner's approach has never been anything other than just that. Here's a counter thought though - drivers have often been accused as being too corporate, too sponsor minded rather than bloody minded. A balance has to be found and Max is yet to find it however there's no doubt that he adds some spice.

As far as I am aware neither Mercedes nor Ferrari are interested in letting RB use one of their power units and who can blame them?

Given Newey's ability to get the chassis part of the package spot on Red Bull's / Horner's Renault related outbursts are probably not the only reason that Mercedes and Ferrari aren't interested in supplying them their engines. It would be a handy excuse should it be needed to use potential relationship issues, however I wouldn't be giving my class leading powerplants to a major rival either.

Edit to add a shout out to Ricciardo. Great to see him having a decent and deserved finish.

[Andyg]

^^^^^^^^ Good post.

[JeremyO]

Given Newey's ability to get the chassis part of the package spot on Red Bull's / Horner's Renault related outbursts are probably not the only reason that Mercedes and Ferrari aren't interested in supplying them their engines. It would be a handy excuse should it be needed to use potential relationship issues, however I wouldn't be giving my class leading powerplants to a major rival either.

I’m sure that you are right that neither Mercedes nor Ferrari would want Red Bull to have their engine and equally Red Bull would not let either Mercedes or Ferrari have their chassis design, even if this was allowed.

[thieuster]

Nice vid for a sunny Wednesday morning:

[adrianw]

Nice vid for a sunny Wednesday morning:

Great video, I enjoyed that.

[WarrenVrs]

Awesome overtake on Hamilton? I must have missed that, seemed like a simple tow on a straight.

Stupid moves by Verstappen.
More stupid still by his team as they should have managed both the on and off track events.

That said, I though the unlapping action by Ocon highly surprising. Yes, it is allowed but it is the extreme of a backmarker messing with the leaders. He was nót fighting for position.
He should imo not have gone for it.
Still, he is allowed to, he did and Max should have let him go and taken the tow. His team should have instructed him such. Max should have won. Even as it is, his race was impressive with a simply awesome overtake of Hamilton.
Anyway, he did not win and handed that to Hamilton.

Time for Horner to look in the mirror.

Also thanks to MV for adding a bit of spice to F1. Would have been another bore without him.

[CardShark]

Nice vid for a sunny Wednesday morning:

The detail and depth that each team goes in to in order to maximise the performance of their cars will never cease to amaze me, and that video was just a snapshot about a static nose cone!

[Huertecilla]

Awesome overtake on Hamilton? I must have missed that, seemed like a simple tow on a straight.

I´m sorry for you.

[WarrenVrs]

Care to elaborate?

From watching the race, he was past him before the first corner. He had drs, fresher Tyres and Hamilton had his engine turned down to manage the exhaust/turbo temps. He was a sitting duck, evidenced by Verstappen rapidly catching him late on with an aero compromised car.

I´m sorry for you.

[sweets]

Care to elaborate?

From watching the race, he was past him before the first corner. He had drs, fresher Tyres and Hamilton had his engine turned down to manage the exhaust/turbo temps. He was a sitting duck, evidenced by Verstappen rapidly catching him late on with an aero compromised car.

He was past Hamilton before the finish line, let alone turn 1. Not an epic overtake by any means, it was falling-off-a-log easy for him, and Hamilton made no moves to defend because he knew it.
Hamilton still won, and I think that is largely due to Verstappen's hubris. He didn't need to assert his dominance over Ocon, but he chose to because he is fiercely competetive, and it cost him.

The interesting thing about that collision is that Ocon was at least as far ahead of Verstappen at the entry to turn one as Verstappen was head of him in on entry to 2. Ocon chose not to slam the door on Verstappen, but Jos did so, when he had the chance.

Dave

[Lampoc]

Well in my mind it was an epic Villeneuve/Arnoux style battle between a humble yet heroic Dutch underdog and an evil, egotistical, small-minded litle Englander and nothing you guys say is ever going to change that.

[chrisb]

Well in my mind it was an epic Villeneuve/Arnoux style battle between a humble yet heroic Dutch underdog and an evil, egotistical, small-minded litle Englander and nothing you guys say is ever going to change that.

Absolutely! MV certainly gets the most out if that DAF!

[Backward point]

An interesting analysis of Renault's current situation:

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...378YTL,1PNAA,1

[adrianw]

An interesting analysis of Renault's current situation:

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...378YTL,1PNAA,1

The article does have a point, I had the impression that the FIA and F1 did say that they were committed to reducing cost, but it does seem that Mercedes and Ferrari are spending more and more.

Whatever Renault thought the costs were when they committed to their own team, I bet the numbers are different now.

[Backward point]

The article does have a point, I had the impression that the FIA and F1 did say that they were committed to reducing cost, but it does seem that Mercedes and Ferrari are spending more and more.

Whatever Renault thought the costs were when they committed to their own team, I bet the numbers are different now.

One of the major issues with cost reduction is that it's hard for the FIA to ignore the infrastructures and R&D resources that the teams already have in place.

Renault were on the back foot going into the hybrid turbo era because they had downsized their engine department during the era of 2.4l V8 engines when they were at the top of their game with Red Bull, which led to them being under-resourced at a time when the regulation changes demanded an intense period of development.

As Mark Hughes points out, they are three years in to a five-year plan, and currently look unlikely to rise above the mid-field and trouble the "big three".

The ultimate decision will be taken by Carlos Ghosn, a man well known in the motor industry as something of a ruthless cost-cutter.

[Bravo73]

Is Kubica back in a race seat (finally)?

https://m.wheels24.co.za/FormulaOne/...plans-20181116

[LukeBird]

Well this could have an interesting change of the future of F1, given Carlos’ singular
mindset over what F1 should be and where it should go.
Given Marchionne & Ghosn were such powerful figures over the future, do we think others will pounce to get their agenda across?
And what about Renault F1...?

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46259420

[adrianw]

Well this could have an interesting change of the future of F1, given Carlos’ singular
mindset over what F1 should be and where it should go.
Given Marchionne & Ghosn were such powerful figures over the future, do we think others will pounce to get their agenda across?
And what about Renault F1...?

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46259420

Hasn't he just been caught out by Japanese law? I bet it is a daily occurrence in the US and here.

[Backward point]

Hasn't he just been caught out by Japanese law? I bet it is a daily occurrence in the US and here.

Yes, it's all over the BBC news feeds. Something about under-declaring his personal income, and it's clearly a serious business in Japan. Almost looks like somebody with a grudge shopped him.

He's reported to earn $10m from Renault alone.

[Backward point]

Here we are, then. Abu Dhabi, which will again host the final race of the season, is another example of Bernie Ecclestone's brave new world of Grand Prix racing, where circuits are sterile and located in countries where the hosting fees are small change. Naturally, it's a Hermann Tilke creation, all straight lines and slow corners, and until the advent of DRS failed to enable much, if anything, in the way of overtaking. Fernando Alonso failed to get past Vitaly Petrov in a slower Renault here in 2010 after Ferrari reacted to Red Bull pitting Mark Webber by pitting Alonso, putting him behind Petrov and as a result Sebastian Vettel won his first World Championship.

The circuit is capable of use all year round, and there is a Pirelli tyre test scheduled for next week, after the race - Kimi Raikkonen and Charles Leclerc will be swapping seats for this.

Tyre choices, and Ferrari seem to have been uncharacteristically cautious:



The other story in Formula 1 at the moment is whether or not the arrest of Carlos Ghosn will have any impact on the future of Renault, either as a team or a power unit supplier, and only time will tell.

[mtagrant]

There is an interesting 5 part article on Alonso talking about his F1 career, decisions made and how it started to go wrong. Here is the link to the first part (all 5 are available with a link to the next one at the bottom of each page)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/46225204

[adrianw]

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/n...eback-williams


https://www.sport24.co.za/Motorsport...-seat-20181017


Tell me its not about cash

[WarrenVrs]

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/n...eback-williams


https://www.sport24.co.za/Motorsport...-seat-20181017


Tell me its not about cash

It is. As it is for at least 50% of the grid.

He clearly has pace, it's probably a question of wether he can show it over a race weekend.

Personally, I think it's great. Superb comeback, hopefully will prove to be a clever move by Williams.

[Andyg]

There is an interesting 5 part article on Alonso talking about his F1 career, decisions made and how it started to go wrong. Here is the link to the first part (all 5 are available with a link to the next one at the bottom of each page)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/46225204

Its been excellent and provides a good insight. Alas it does not endear me towards Alonso.

I loved the bit where he tried to blackmail Ron Dennis - quality stunt.

[adrianw]

It is. As it is for at least 50% of the grid.

He clearly has pace, it's probably a question of wether he can show it over a race weekend.

Personally, I think it's great. Superb comeback, hopefully will prove to be a clever move by Williams.

I would love to see a list showing drivers they were considering with the cash offered.

Obviously never going to happen

[WarrenVrs]

I would love to see a list showing drivers they were considering with the cash offered.

Obviously never going to happen

I'm not sure it matters. The Williams was a dog this year. What's going to help them more, a bigger budget, or a slightly quicker driver?

Ocon is the obvious alternative, but I'm not sure what he has to gain from a year at the bottom. He seems to have done enough to be the leading candidate for Mercedes in 2020, a year as test/development driver will allow him to acclimatise and be ready to hit the ground running.

[Backward point]

In honour of his final appearance in a Formula 1 car, unless he receives an offer that he can't refuse, McLaren have pulled out all the stops and given Fernando Alonso's car a new paint job for the weekend:



It's probably unlikely to improve the car's performance, sadly.

[Andyg]

I'm not sure it matters. The Williams was a dog this year. What's going to help them more, a bigger budget, or a slightly quicker driver?

Ocon is the obvious alternative, but I'm not sure what he has to gain from a year at the bottom. He seems to have done enough to be the leading candidate for Mercedes in 2020, a year as test/development driver will allow him to acclimatise and be ready to hit the ground running.

Agreed. Having Toto as your manager will also help.

[Huertecilla]

Alas it does not endear me towards Alonso.

A few years late but you got there.

Toyota only have him in their endurance program because his name gets them headlines they otherwise would not.

[adrianw]

A few years late but you got there.

Toyota only have him in their endurance program because his name gets them headlines they otherwise would not.

Rubbish, he is still one of the best drivers in the world, Toyotagazoo are the best team, they have the best driver line up including three ex F1 drivers and an ex WTC champion, they don’t need any more publicly.

[Huertecilla]

Rubbish, he is still one of the best drivers in the world, Toyotagazoo are the best team, they have the best driver line up including three ex F1 drivers and an ex WTC champion, they don’t need any more publicly.

Believe what you want.
There are several as fast alternatives without the bagage.
As you yourself say they would have the same top results without him.
Since your perception is anglo-saxon you are apparently oblivious to the extra publicity Alonso gets in the spanish speaking part of the world. Without Alonso in it, there would be no live coverage of endurance races on Spanish tv.
Bottom line is that he gets them no better scores and his poison is well worth the extra publicity in not your part of the world.

[adrianw]

Believe what you want.
There are several as fast alternatives without the bagage.
As you yourself say they would have the same top results without him.
Since your perception is anglo-saxon you are apparently oblivious to the extra publicity Alonso gets in the spanish speaking part of the world. Without Alonso in it, there would be no live coverage of endurance races on Spanish tv.
Bottom line is that he gets them no better scores and his poison is well worth the extra publicity in not your part of the world.

Why do you think the other drivers rate him so highly?

[Huertecilla]

Why do you think the other drivers rate him so highly?

Did I write he is not a good driver?
Do you deny he is poison?

What is your point?

Mý point is that they take the poison because of the publicity coming with his name and you write ´rubbish´ to that.
Well, so be it. Tant pis.