Warning: epidemic of much better fakes that have fooled many in the trade

[jameswrx]

There’s a guy on TRF that took a sub he was buying to an Indy to inspect, they gave it the ok so he bought it there and then off the kid.

He wore it for months and the next time he was in the shop they offered to clean it for him (or something) then they came back out with it telling him it’s a fake.

Now the bloke reckons the kid he was dealing with swapped the watches after the inspection but my money is on the Indy popping the back off and seeing a ‘rolex’ movement and thinking it was legit. Just seems strange to me that they had another look and said it was fake and the kid must have done a slight of hand after they first checked.

Bare in mind the fake had a ‘rolex’ replica movement. I just think if some scummy kid was doing this would he really risk a genuine rolex getting taken in the deal (imagine if the buyer had not let the kid handle it after inspection). Also if he was going to do a switch why not swap a sub without a ‘rolex’ replica movement too as that would be a hell of a lot cheaper.

I still think the Indy that looked probably heard months later the fakers do near identical movements and wanted another look before the story got out of their control.

[Derivative]

For them to put so much effort into the faking of the watches, to the extent that the a fake Rolex probably has better fit and finish than a decent affordable watch, means their profit margins must be significant.

And that of course is directly correlated to Rolex retail prices, so in a strange way Rolex, through their marketing and price positioning (and ubiquity) are creating the opportunity the scammers see and want to grab.

I’m sure it’s been this way forever, but OP’s excellent write up just demonstrates how scary/sophisticated it’s become...


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[Haywood_Milton]

Did you get the impression that he was there working on behalf of someone else?

I couldn't draw you a management organogram, but I would be sure that there is more than one person involved in the criminal distribution which seems to be current. There will also be lone operators, increasingly as these watches begin to hit the market more.

Were the police involved or did he head off on his merry way to take the watch to the next jeweller?

While convinced myself of his mala fides, there would probably be insufficient evidence of a crime having taken place. Beaker has only to say "I didn't know it was fake".....how are you going to respond? What's his crime, then?

Was the bezel ceramic? If so, that would be quite impressive and worrying.

I didn't think to test this nor am I sure of a non-destructive way in which I might, but my impression is that it was.

Were the AP’s (I’m assuming Royal Oaks?) equally hard to spot?

Yes, very high quality. I would expect a careful observer to spot the movement, given some genuine comparisons......but the rotor was very well marked.

You said the watch felt light- how reproducible is the weight? Obviously one not re-finished, head only or with all links. And what about the serial numbers, do you think they’ll all be unique?

Weight is easily reproducible of course, just a matter of additional metal added somewhere inside, such as I've seen on some fake Breitling. "In the field," of course, the removable links in the bracelet will make this a variable, but simply in handling the watch I felt it a little light / less solid in my hands than a real one. Admittedly subjective, as my words perhaps suggested, and no use to you unless you are also handling them all the time. As for the serial numbers, yes, these are increasingly unique and of course matched the warranty card.

It looks in the photo as though the rehaut engraving does not line up with the minute markers?

They did line up -- and were excellent. The style and application of the numbers / figures needs to be seen, even with a 10x loupe. Note how the "Rs" of ROLEX on the LHS all align with the hour markers and all the "Xs" align with the hour markers on the RHS. Any apparent misalignment is simply caused by perspective in my photograph. I did have a crowd around me while I was doing this!

When you see an advertised watch and they say "willing to meet at an AD to check authenticity"
Hows this work?? Do you just roll up at a AD and say " check this out pal" must be a charge etc, always wondered.

Very, very few ADs have the knowledge or experience to be able to identify fake parts, never mind having any inclination to try. I could cite examples of fakes and fake parts they have missed and, with very rare exception, the whole idea is an ebay myth. You have more chance of finding work as a beachcomber in Liechtenstein.

I assume the police were called, as this was a clear attempt at fraud?

Was it? I may have my own view of the truth, but what if he says "I didn't know it was fake and you've just accused me of what, exactly?" [Historians may judge this civilised Skinner-Milton exchange to be more pivotal than North and South Korea meeting to discuss the Olympics. You can be Little Kim, though, okay?]

Not sure what can be done but to buy direct from an AD.

Buying new from an AD would be one way to buy a good watch, unless a baddie has been in and substitited their fake for one while looking at it, tags swapped over and all. Yes, it has happened.

Buying a pre-owned Rolex from an AD should give even less certainty.

Did you call the Police?

See earlier answer. We took certain steps, through our cross-border jewellery industry anti-crime operation, Safergems. If Beaker or the watch resurface in a similar way, they will be flagged very quickly and I would expect a collar to be felt. As it was I think cloth was touched.

Indeed, I would have thought a pawn shop would be the obvious place to try and flog these. Although maybe he wouldn’t have got a free cup of coffee in those places.

Wrong on so many levels.....

Did you call the police? Certainly, if video footage was taken, then the police should be informed in my view. After all, if you had taken it in good faith and later it was discovered you had sold it on, your reputation would be severely damaged...

See my earlier comments. Yes, video footage of course --- and audio.

You are right to fear that scenario. Only last year another business (and a respectable one at that) near one of mine was robbed. They provided a list of items taken from their window, which included a fake Submariner we knew of!

Very reassuring that my only Rolex came from Haywood's shop, I hope it was checked thoroughly.

Indeed.......but if you didn't buy it directly from us then theoretically anything could have happened to it, even within the space of a few hours. I am sure it didn't, of course, but the fact that it was okay when it left X a week ago does not mean that a watch will be fine when you buy it from Y a week later.

You said it felt light. If the ADs where given the exact weights of head only watches could that be used as another check?

No.

"Huang, each of this batch of fakes weighs 1.6 grammes less than a real one. Put that much extra metal into the interior of the case, will you?"

Job done.

I would be interested in how good the bracelet was Haywood? Was it of comparable quality where you wouldn't know the difference?

The end links were outstanding. Finish, form, application of numbers, shape of coronets.....just brilliant. The rest of the bracelet was superb but the clasp would never have got past me. Forgive me not wanting to say why. It was, nonetheless, very good and I would expect it to get past most people.

Reading this post, i think the safest option when buying second hand must be to focus on reputable and experienced bricks and mortar stores, or to buy models which have been recently serviced from Rolex - or can evidence of the latter also be faked easily?

Faked Rolex service docs etc are rare (so far), but what comfort should they give you? Within a few hours of receiving a watch back from Rolex, a baddie may have swapped out any number of good parts for bad ones. It used to be a greater risk in the high value world of vintage, but prices make this more appealing than ever for cheaper models. Consider a Rolex on a President bracelet and with a diamond bezel, just serviced by Rolex. In minutes a baddie could then swap the bracelet for a good 18k fake (sometimes fitted with the genuine clasp from an old, genuine one that had been scrapped, so the markings are all spot on) and fit a generic diamond bezel. He then advertises the watch with 1-day old Rolex service card......but has swapped out a genuine Rolex diamond bezel and President bracelet, both worth thousands.

H

[JasonM]

There’s a guy on TRF that took a sub he was buying to an Indy to inspect, they gave it the ok so he bought it there and then off the kid.

He wore it for months and the next time he was in the shop they offered to clean it for him (or something) then they came back out with it telling him it’s a fake.

Now the bloke reckons the kid he was dealing with swapped the watches after the inspection but my money is on the Indy popping the back off and seeing a ‘rolex’ movement and thinking it was legit. Just seems strange to me that they had another look and said it was fake and the kid must have done a slight of hand after they first checked.

Bare in mind the fake had a ‘rolex’ replica movement. I just think if some scummy kid was doing this would he really risk a genuine rolex getting taken in the deal (imagine if the buyer had not let the kid handle it after inspection). Also if he was going to do a switch why not swap a sub without a ‘rolex’ replica movement too as that would be a hell of a lot cheaper.

I still think the Indy that looked probably heard months later the fakers do near identical movements and wanted another look before the story got out of their control.

The more likely scenario is i was initially misdiagnosed as genuine by the kid.

[sean]

Why not try to earn your money honestly when you are going through so much effort?

Ginault?

[verv]

Thanks for this HM. Really fascinating stuff.
I had no idea about the uv on card. I will use it in future. See, not just for making lume glow like a torch :)

[JasonM]

"They did line up -- and were excellent. The style and application of the numbers / figures needs to be seen, even with a 10x loupe. Note how the "Rs" of ROLEX on the LHS all align with the hour markers and all the "Xs" align with the hour markers on the RHS. Any apparent misalignment is simply caused by perspective in my photograph. I did have a crown around me while I was doing this!"

And you thoroughly deserve that crown.
Thanks for posting

[Haywood_Milton]

"They did line up -- and were excellent. The style and application of the numbers / figures needs to be seen, even with a 10x loupe. Note how the "Rs" of ROLEX on the LHS all align with the hour markers and all the "Xs" align with the hour markers on the RHS. Any apparent misalignment is simply caused by perspective in my photograph. I did have a crown around me while I was doing this!"

And you thoroughly deserve that crown.
Thanks for posting

Damn! Now corrected, though the idea has merit.

[Itsguy]

For them to put so much effort into the faking of the watches, to the extent that the a fake Rolex probably has better fit and finish than a decent affordable watch, means their profit margins must be significant.

And that of course is directly correlated to Rolex retail prices, so in a strange way Rolex, through their marketing and price positioning (and ubiquity) are creating the opportunity the scammers see and want to grab.

This may be true in a sense, and there’s always a clear financial incentive to make fakes. But Rolex also had to design and develop the actual watch in the first place, pay for marketing, run a dealer and service network, and so on. The faker doesn’t have these costs, they are a parasite using the reputation and spending of the real brand, and are stealing their intellectual property. So while the real brand may indeed have a large markup, and the additional markup of the bricks and mortar dealer on top of their wholesale price, we can’t simply conclude that they created the opportunity by overcharging. It may be true that some brands charge silly money for artificially scarce branded products, but it’s far from the whole story.

An extreme example of the same thing would be arguing that record companies seem to charge a lot for didgital music, when the files can be copied for nothing. The difference is that in one case, the band actually gets paid, and that’s why the music exists in the first place.

[Lorex]

Very interesting thread, thank you.

Is the UV light pattern on the card unique to Rolex? Or do most manufactures have these on their cards? E.g. Omega, Breitling, Tudor etc.

[Yeti]

I’ve seen a fake Rolex that a guy I know tried to test me on. Made out he’d bought it new and what did I think of it etc. As per Haywood, this thing was spot on that it almost and I mean almost fooled me. High quality coronet on the glass, check. Superb bracelet, check. Perfect dial and engraved rehaut, check. The only thing I got on was when I pulled the crown out and wound the movement. It didn’t feel and sound right. Plus the stem wobbled. When I said I’m not sure it’s genuine or at least not the movement, he laughed and said he was just testing me. Bought online for around £300 as an A rated copy. Genuinely scary. And as per Haywood, the next time I saw him he had an AP Michael Schumacher limited edition and I have to say the quality for £300 was mind boggling. Scary scary times.

[Haywood_Milton]

Very interesting thread, thank you.

Is the UV light pattern on the card unique to Rolex? Or do most manufactures have these on their cards? E.g. Omega, Breitling, Tudor etc.

Not unique to Rolex, and each iteration of Rolex papers / card exhibits different security features so make sure to compare like with like.

H

[UKMike]

Needless to say the next generation of fakes will be even closer to the originals. Each iteration closes that gap. The question "When is a Rolex not a Rolex" ? might eventually be answered by "When it doesn't have a light sprinkling of Swiss pixie dust".

With fakers ripping off the innocent and also some of the professionals, the hungry-shark pricing of the genuine article and the attitude of most of the ADs, it has put the final nail in the coffin of the brand for me.

(Ironically, some of these recent fakes could be snapped up by Chinese tourists and end up back in China!)

[Senninha]

Many thanks for taking the time to write that up and post it. VERY good warning to be on the lookout. Not even 'buy the seller', but 'buy the seller of the seller, of the...'. Even if everyone in a chain is really honest and decent, if no-one spots a very good fake...

[Oracle]

Brilliant Haywood!

Fantastic work and comprehensive sharing.

As you know Beaker's image has been circulated to the trade.

Thanks

David

[bambam]

That is a great write-up and thanks very much for posting about this.

Very scary how good the fakes are these days.

Are there other brands that you come across that are commonly faked?

[timc]

so scary. thank you for sharing.

[33JS]

Will they be able to fake the data held on the mag-strip of the new style warranty cards??

[Wallasey Runner]

Brilliant Haywood!

Fantastic work and comprehensive sharing.

As you know Beaker's image has been circulated to the trade.

Thanks

David

As Haywood said, at the first attempt Beaker can always claim that he was unaware and be given the benefit of the doubt, but once his description and details of the Watch have been circulated around the trade I assume that he is committing a criminal offence on the second attempt for knowingly trying to pass a fake on. What happens then, is he detained and the police called or is he told he is a very naughty boy and sent on his way.

[bambam]

Eventually won't they put all high value items like watches, diamonds, artwork etc. onto a blockchain of some sort that will provide a record of the provenance? That will be much harder to fake I would have thought.

I know it was being looked at for diamonds.

[Mick P]

Will they be able to fake the data held on the mag-strip of the new style warranty cards??

They could do that 30 years ago and when I was dealing with secure printers between 1986 - 2002. The cost then of a magnetic forgery was the princely sum of just 3pence. For that they would put anything in it.

Basically if a bona fide retailer brings out a security card or a document to accompany a product, it can be faked within 3 years. So if you are buying a 2010 Rolex, the original papers could easily be faked. This is why I keep banging on about it, papers have always been easy to fake.

[Montello]

Is it worth putting the serial number in the topic title so it gets indexed by google.

[Oracle]

As Haywood said, at the first attempt Beaker can always claim that he was unaware and be given the benefit of the doubt, but once his description and details of the Watch have been circulated around the trade I assume that he is committing a criminal offence on the second attempt for knowingly trying to pass a fake on. What happens then, is he detained and the police called or is he told he is a very naughty boy and sent on his way.

I would assume that you are right in thinking he is committing an offence by continuing to try and sell it as genuine having been proven it was a fake by Haywood.

If he showed his face here we would attempt to get him to leave it for an hour whilst we "check it out" and have him picked up on return if the police believe he is committing an offence.

[Norbert]

Posts about fakes usually bore me but I thought members might appreciate this alert.

In the last six months the UK trade has seen a significant number of fakes which in many ways are much closer to the real thing than anything that has gone before. Mostly it is the desirable Rolex sports classics like Date Submariners, DeepSeas etc, but a number of businesses have also lost thousands of pounds on fake Audemars Piguets, typically complete with very high quality booklets and documentation. Just before Christmas I was sent two of those APs for my written appraisals. The Rolex commonly come with unique, matching warranty cards (fake), a mix of real and fake boxes, booklets, swing-tags etc, and well-crafted background stories that allow the sellers to claim ignorance if caught. The coincidence, wide geography and careful orchestration of the set-up suggests it is a well-co-ordinated, professional scam. Members here are exposed perhaps to direct sales of these items, but also if they buy them unwittingly from jewellers and others who have themselves been duped. We all know there are many in the trade who really haven't much of a clue, including some otherwise respected names.

This afternoon Beaker from The Muppet Show (or his incarnation in human form) tried to sell this watch to one of my companies:



The warranty card was a good effort.

While I could see that the font of the unique elements wasn't quite correct, it was close:



The back tries hard, but perhaps a little too hard. Have you ever seen one from Goldsmiths stamped thus?



However, the fake card completely failed my UV light test (decent UV torches available circa £15 online are also useful for checking bank-notes, discovering what is illustrated throughout your passport and exciting-young-children-at-bed-time-when-you-were-supposed-to-be-calming-them-down-dear).

This is what you should see when a UV light is shone on a genuine card of this type:



The movement displayed great effort on the part of the bad guys. Its appearance was very much that of a correct 3135 Rolex calibre, having authentically coloured and placed metal / plastic wheels and plates marked up as a 3135 with all text ostensibly correct in size, placement, orientation etc. I opened up my personal Sea-Dweller 16600 with its own 3135 and compared them side-by-side. It then became clear that the fake's text was filled with inferior quality and "dirtier" yellow ink. The deepest movement plate lacked some vital detail and the finish on the plates generally was not as good. While it was obvious to me with considerable experience and a control exemplar next to it, the fake 3135 would, I am sure, have fooled many. I wish that I had taken some photos, but was busy showing a gaggle of interested colleagues my findings as I went.



The watch felt a little light overall. The bezel clicked authentically but just a little less robustly than the real thing. You can see the crown-guards and hands for yourselves, but each "tell" will slowly be improved upon. The dial itself was very well done, as the better fakes typically are in recent years, and the inner rehaut script accurately reproduced, with the correct letters corresponding with the relevant hour markers. Lasered coronet - check, and much better than on previous fakes, but crucially omitting the one, final security feature which is so hard to reproduce. The bracelet was in some ways superb. The attention to detail and alphanumeric markings on the end links were troublingly close. The clasp was less convincing but, as with my comments on the movement, I'd rather hold some detail back so as not to help the baddies. Case back interior markings were impressive.

This generation of fakes has already proved good enough to earn the crooks many thousands all over the country. They will continue to fool the unwary and will of course continue to evolve further. The method of delivery, with accessories correct or faked, is well-conceived and shows considerable knowledge of what buyers may be looking for in both the seller and what they are offering. Ebay's going to see a tonne of these.

What more can I say about Beaker?



I do wish I could share his photo with you.

Not the sharpest screwdriver in the box, this one. Expensive-looking suit and brusque manner, demanding a cup of coffee before it was offered - what image was this to convey? While he waited, he spread some very important-looking papers over the desk to study, clearly relaying the impression he was a respectable businessman. However, the grubby and worn hands of a labourer, their knuckles scabbed as if from recent fights, did not support the impression of life near a water-cooler. The shaky meltdown when told the watch was fake and questioned about it was classic. "So, tell me now why you didn't want us to take the back of your watch at any point, even if we agreed a price. That's it, just smile for the camera while you're at it. So, who's the crook, you or the guy who sold you the watch? You said you knew him; shall we call him now?" etc.

Be warned, everyone: attention to detail, replicative technology and "setting up" the sale of these fakes have all improved to a point where this isn't funny any more.

H

Once again Sir this community owes you a huge debt of gratitude .
Bless you , you are a top man .


Sent from my iPhone using TZ-UK mobile app
Norbert

[Neil.C]

Unfortunately we can assume there are hundreds of these in circulation with more to come.

Very few dealers will have the knowledge HM has displayed and will be more easily fooled.

From experience many of these fake pushers will choose to put their stuff through pawnbrokers, in fact I spotted a fake Planet Ocean on this very site that had been purchased from one such place simply because pawnbrokers can't be experienced at everything.

It's a real worry for second hand buyers in the future and if too many of these fakes get into circulation it could cause the value of the real things to fall as well.

[monogroover]

Was the bezel ceramic? If so, that would be quite impressive and worrying. I understand manufacture of ceramic bezels is particularly difficult. The slightest defect and the bezel will shatter under normal fitting and operational use

Even the cheaper (eg less than £100) Rolex / Omega etc fakes have ceramic bezels. The only noticeable difference is the quality or shade of the paint in the engraved numerals in them. I assume the received wisdom about them being difficult or expensive to manufacture is just marketing.

[Montello]

I wonder how many members here are wearing a fake and don’t even know ...

[Dynam0humm]

I would have loved to have seen a movement shot. Up until now I assumed the high end fakes used ETA clones with a couple of wheels painted red to mimic the teflon coated reversing wheels on a genuine 3135. If they are now replicating the movements then that is a very worrying development.

[Evanssprky]

Even the cheaper (eg less than £100) Rolex / Omega etc fakes have ceramic bezels. The only noticeable difference is the quality or shade of the paint in the engraved numerals in them. I assume the received wisdom about them being difficult or expensive to manufacture is just marketing.

This ^. Ceramic is hardly an exotic material. Once the fakers have produced a mold or whatever is required to produce the insert, they can bake them off in their tens of thousands for pence. The breakage rate is pretty much immaterial however fragile.
Only the purveyors of watches with ceramic bezels (eg Rolex) claim there is anything "special" about them.

[Bodo]

As vintage Seiko prices are rising fast I wonder how long it will be before nigh on perfect copies of 6105s, 6159s and 6217s will hit the market. Up until now they have been mostly quite crude offerings with possibly the scubapro 450 6306 being the most convincing. I imagine it is on the horizon. And comparatively easy compared to what's happening with Rolex.

[JohnnyE]

Ceramic bezels are readily available for around $40 for modding Seikos... So you can be sure these fake Rolex ones are ceramic.

Seiko example source : lcbistore.com

[walkerwek1958]

It’s very worrying if the movements can appear genuine, I hadn’t realised the fakes were so good.

If the copies reach reach a standard where only the real experts can tell them apart, the repercussions for the watch trade are serious.

I’m not condoning anyone trying to pass a fake off as genuine, but if they’re reaching such a high standard more people who aspire to owning the real thing will settle for a copy instead, they’ll bask in the knowledge that their copy is so good it would fool most dealers. The extreme anti- fake philosophy on this forum isn’t representative of the majority of people; we take the view that the fake- buyers are the idiots whereas many people would take the opposite view.

If the world really does end up awash with high quality replicas of the popular desirable watches this will erode the desirability of such models. If the fakes really are out there in quantity over a period of time it stands to reason that most examples seen in the wild will be copies, and that’s bound to have an effect.

The one thing the fakers will never get right is the quality of the movements, it would cost far too much and I can’t see it happening.

Paul

[aksing]

Even five years ago when I was looking at a used Breitling I could see the best fakes were very close, I imagine now they must be even closer, so be very wary of your source and buy the seller, never the price.

[oldoakknives]

Great post HM and thanks for bringing it to our attention. Interesting reading and pretty scary for sure.

[Rubymac]

Hi Haywood
Great thread and great work on your part ,notice this was the slightly older card , have you seen many of the newer print cards faked or any with the newer hang tags with serials printed on white plastic ?
Have seen a copy of the James Cameron where the movement was engraved and was frightening how close it was to the real thing. Now with 3D printers are they eventually going to get all the documents exact and if they do what happens to the 2nd hand market , and also if the copies are getting to close to tell could it devalue the market ?
Cheers Jamie

[Bonesey]

Yes the bezels are real ceramic, they can even do the pepsi and batman bezels. The Hulk green is currently unreplicated accurately. They now use a silver compound to replicate the platinum pvd of the genuine article. Only the cheapest still use the white paint.

Yes they have cloned the 3135 and 3187 movements. They have some reliability issues. Mostly though they use cloned ETA movements. But functionally they are the same, they have the correct hand stack for the GMT movements ( gen and clone 3187 on bottom, ETA clone is GMT hand above hour hand).

The biggest tell is usually the hands themselves. In both the luster and finishing of the white gold, or the fineness of the lumed areas. They also struggle to create the black hole effect of the Cyclops AR coating as they only single coat the underside of the cyclops. Datewheels also continue to be an issue with them either being poorly printed or aligned high and to the left of the centre of the date window.

They also cannot produce the green sapphire of the Milgauss GV and replicate it with awful green tinted AR and a green crystal gasket.

In the past four years the replicas have come on greatly. Not just Rolex, but they have authentic Panerai movements, especially the 6497 ETA based ones as well as cosmetically accurate auto movements. AP are popular and very well replicated as well as the usual contenders of Omega, Breitling etc.

Be warned though. The tells I have listed can be rectified. The case sets are now so good that you can install genuine parts in them relatively easily. A fake case for a modern maxi case watch will take genuine bezel assemblies and inserts, dials, the rep movements will take genuine hands etc. It's no longer as simple to spot a replica as it used to be.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[Rubymac]

It’s very worrying if the movements can appear genuine, I hadn’t realised the fakes were so good.

If the copies reach reach a standard where only the real experts can tell them apart, the repercussions for the watch trade are serious.

I’m not condoning anyone trying to pass a fake off as genuine, but if they’re reaching such a high standard more people who aspire to owning the real thing will settle for a copy instead, they’ll bask in the knowledge that their copy is so good it would fool most dealers. The extreme anti- fake philosophy on this forum isn’t representative of the majority of people; we take the view that the fake- buyers are the idiots whereas many people would take the opposite view.

If the world really does end up awash with high quality replicas of the popular desirable watches this will erode the desirability of such models. If the fakes really are out there in quantity over a period of time it stands to reason that most examples seen in the wild will be copies, and that’s bound to have an effect.

The one thing the fakers will never get right is the quality of the movements, it would cost far too much and I can’t see it happening.

Paul

- - - Updated - - -

Have to agree with this

[Raffe]

Yes the bezels are real ceramic, they can even do the pepsi and batman bezels. The Hulk green is currently unreplicated accurately. They now use a silver compound to replicate the platinum pvd of the genuine article. Only the cheapest still use the white paint.

Yes they have cloned the 3135 and 3187 movements. They have some reliability issues. Mostly though they use cloned ETA movements. But functionally they are the same, they have the correct hand stack for the GMT movements ( gen and clone 3187 on bottom, ETA clone is GMT hand above hour hand).

The biggest tell is usually the hands themselves. In both the luster and finishing of the white gold, or the fineness of the lumed areas. They also struggle to create the black hole effect of the Cyclops AR coating as they only single coat the underside of the cyclops. Datewheels also continue to be an issue with them either being poorly printed or aligned high and to the left of the centre of the date window.

They also cannot produce the green sapphire of the Milgauss GV and replicate it with awful green tinted AR and a green crystal gasket.

In the past four years the replicas have come on greatly. Not just Rolex, but they have authentic Panerai movements, especially the 6497 ETA based ones as well as cosmetically accurate auto movements. AP are popular and very well replicated as well as the usual contenders of Omega, Breitling etc.

Be warned though. The tells I have listed can be rectified. The case sets are now so good that you can install genuine parts in them relatively easily. A fake case for a modern maxi case watch will take genuine bezel assemblies and inserts, dials, the rep movements will take genuine hands etc. It's no longer as simple to spot a replica as it used to be.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

Mr. Fake, again.

[Montello]

The brands have to take a bigger role in protecting the used market.

They could easily manintain an ownership database like the DVLA do with cars.

[Liam1288]

Rolex NEEDS to invest some of their profits in taking AD sales staff on an indepth inspection course!

I'd say the ADs NEED 1 model of each watch at all times to use as a comparison against fakes and makes it a good idea to also use it as a tester piece for customers to try on.
I mean loads of people are putting names on waiting lists for subs, GMTs etc without even trying on to see if they even 'work' with the potential buyer...

[Dave+63]

The one thing the fakers will never get right is the quality of the movements, it would cost far too much and I can’t see it happening.

Paul

I think you’re probably being optimistic here Paul. Haywood’s initial post shows that they’re not far away now and only getting better.

It’s getting to the stage where the only way to be sure it’s genuine is to buy new from an AD (and even that’s not foolproof) which will kill the second hand market.

[Neil.C]

Mr. Fake, again.

Once people start using the terms "replica", "rep" or "tells" it's a sure sign they are into the counterfeit scene.

[Kingstepper]

The brands have to take a bigger role in protecting the used market.

They could easily manintain an ownership database like the DVLA do with cars.

Or on a blockchain.

[PhilipK]

Is it worth putting the serial number in the topic title so it gets indexed by google.

Isn't the point that these fakes have unique serial numbers, so this is no longer a valid way of detecting them?

I would assume that you are right in thinking he is committing an offence by continuing to try and sell it as genuine having been proven it was a fake by Haywood.

While we are all in awe of Haywood's knowledge and expertise, he hasn't "proven" (to the extent required by the law) that it's fake. I imagine that would require a written report on headed notepaper, and even then that could be subject to challenge in court by any other expert. The scrote could always claim that he still believed the watch to be genuine and that he thought that Haywood was trying to rip him off. Hence why it's so difficult to get such people prosecuted, and why it wasn't just a simple case of Haywood calling the boys in blue when presented with this fake.

[Montello]

Or on a blockchain.

Yep, if they don’t act the party may soon be over.

[amcneill]

Hats off to the fakers - it's amazing what they can do and very worrying.you tend to think of them as ramshackle cheap labour crap but these guys must almost be on a par with the real manufacturers - cnc machines,proper watchmakers etc..

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[Haywood_Milton]

Isn't the point that these fakes have unique serial numbers, so this is no longer a valid way of detecting them?


While we are all in awe of Haywood's knowledge and expertise, he hasn't "proven" (to the extent required by the law) that it's fake. I imagine that would require a written report on headed notepaper, and even then that could be subject to challenge in court by any other expert. The scrote could always claim that he still believed the watch to be genuine and that he thought that Haywood was trying to rip him off. Hence why it's so difficult to get such people prosecuted, and why it wasn't just a simple case of Haywood calling the boys in blue when presented with this fake.

Just FYI my written reports on behalf of the police, asset recovery teams etc (which can extend to six pages of text on a single watch) have never been been disputed in a court of law or even argued in correspondence. I would love it if a supposed expert were silly enough to take instruction to defend this watch as genuine, because his reputation would shortly afterwards be rightly destroyed. I’m not perfect and certainly don’t deserve the status you kindly suggest, but some things can be established beyond argument.

I would be confident of accusing someone of a criminal offence and supporting the relevant charges if the only matter in question were the demonstrable fact that their watch is fake. Unfortunately this is not the only pre-requisite.

[Chris_in_the_UK]

Hats off to the fakers - it's amazing what they can do and very worrying.you tend to think of them as ramshackle cheap labour crap but these guys must almost be on a par with the real manufacturers - cnc machines,proper watchmakers etc..

You are joking of course?.....

[amcneill]

You are joking of course?.....

No.think about it - making something fake to this level is very impressive.they are not your cheap obvious fakes but designed to a level to deceive people who are in the business or enthusiasts like us.

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[W44NNE]

Thanks Haywood, very interesting. I guess as time goes on, it’ll only get more difficult to tell.