Interesting drama on Instagram - auctioned Rolex looks to be faked

[mjgerrard]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BdfQmVsldeT/

Phillips Watches appear to have already commented in the thread that they will contact the buyer regarding the piece. The interesting twist to this is the heavy relationship and hype with Hodinkee in the picture. Ben Clymer has already waded in on the Instagram comments section.

M.

[hughtrimble]

Could you link to the second picture the OP on Instagram mentions in the description? I can't find it on his profile anywhere (I truly despise Instagram's desktop interface...it's horrendous to use)

Edit: worked it out! Gosh, that is pretty impressive. Interesting they didn't bother to try and deal with those identifying marks when removing the Cosmograph writing.

[mjgerrard]

Here you go. Makes it a bit easier to see what we are talking about.

[hughtrimble]

Perfect! Thanks muchly.

[mjgerrard]

Just deciphering what seems to have gone on here from the comments, but I might be incorrect:

- Cosmo Daytona sells on Antiquorum auction - serial number is noted.
- Somewhere between that sale, and the sale on Phillips, is that the dial is then altered to make it a lot rarer - however, serial number is the same. Commenters speculate that it is the watch auction houses that hire vintage experts to alter the dials for more profit.
- Hodinkee features/hypes the watch coming up for auction at some point. Again, commenters point out that there is very much a "I scratch your back" situation going on between auction houses and Hodinkee.
- Sale goes through
- This chap on IG points out the problem.

All very fishy business I have to say.

[Idc0001]

I wonder what happens now. I assume Phillips refund the buyer but then how do Phillips recoup that money and also what happens to the watch?

[RobDad]

When this much money is involved, it stops being about watches and it’s all about ‘collectibility’ and profit imho. That’s where I lose interest I’m afraid - anyone with access to the internet becomes an ‘expert’ and all the nerdy differentiation between models that only wis used to care about become leverage for more profit - sad really


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[Montello]

Does removing one word really make it worth more; I'd have thought it would de-value the watch ..

[ollipekka]

When this much money is involved, it stops being about watches and it’s all about ‘collectibility’ and profit imho. That’s where I lose interest I’m afraid - anyone with access to the internet becomes an ‘expert’ and all the nerdy differentiation between models that only wis used to care about become leverage for more profit - sad really


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Makes me super dubious of 'vintage'. You pay a big premium for collectibility and easily get screwed. There are very few people who can say if it is real or not.

[Bobbyf]

Does removing one word really make it worth more; I'd have thought it would de-value the watch ..

It would seem so in this case.


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[Montello]

It would seem so in this case.


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So what are the figures?

[mjgerrard]

I was trying to track that down, but 200% profit was mentioned in the post. Which is, a lot.

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[MICHAELHS]

Is a fair point so why is the T Swiss T different on both dials.

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[JGJG]

Weird that they repainted the bezel engravings - surely that was moving the watch in the opposite direction from where they were trying to go with the dial change :dunno:

[Gunscrossed]

I love his blog, very informative.

[stelmo01]

I'm curious - I understand that adding text to a dial would be relatively straightforward (Like the many dubious Tiffany dials out there), but how would someone remove text without leaving a mark on the base layer of paint, or causing damage?


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[Robbyman]

HODINKEE is ex-investment banker run and private equity funded. It is a lot less about cardigans and beards and more Gordon Gecko.

I actually prefer ablogtowatch with Arial Adams.

[DimGR]

how much was it sold for ?

[verv]

It's putting me in mind a bit of that guy that hoodwinked John Meyer with some shady part rolexes.
Can't remember his name tho.

Edit - Bob Maron

[Ar.parask]

It's putting me in mind a bit of that guy that hoodwinked John Meyer.
Can't remember his name tho.

Bob Maron?


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[verv]

Yep. Altho foraging dictates that it would seem Meyer was having a tantrum over not much and dropped the claim.

[744ER]

The majority of red submariner dials are faked or repainted according to Rolex. Italians have been at this for years, easy money.

[JP Chestnut]

HODINKEE is ex-investment banker run and private equity funded. It is a lot less about cardigans and beards and more Gordon Gecko.

I actually prefer ablogtowatch with Arial Adams.

That's like choosing cat poop over dog poop.

The forums are the best place to get solid information. There are guys on here, and especially VFR, who put the blogs to shame with their knowledge.

[Robbyman]

That's like choosing cat poop over dog poop.

The forums are the best place to get solid information. There are guys on here, and especially VFR, who put the blogs to shame with their knowledge.

You're right of course.

[OliverD]

Worrying how blatant it is.

It would be hard to pick a more conspicuous watch to alter than one that had been previously auctioned by a major auction house.

Makes you wonder how many are done and got away with.

[jameswrx]

What I find a bit strange is the fact someone is willing to spend a serious amount of money on a Watch without doing their research. Surely they’d have asked for the serial number? A Watch so rare had a good chance of being sold/seen/talked about online so wouldn’t you google the serial? Does that say to you they’d more than likely have been advised into the purchase? Seeing as ‘rare’ watches like this are such a great investment these days it doesn’t really smack much of a purchase by a collector that’s been chasing one for years (who would know the Rolex logo was off and would know the Watch). The fact a random guy that had nothing to do with the Watch manages to find out it’s been faked and re-sold with a bit of googling is laughable for the people who buy this type of thing.

Makes you wonder how many of these things are created and sold to unsuspecting people who just believe what they’re told. Let’s hope it doesn’t turn out to have something to do with the well known restorers in the Rolex world.

The whole way the vintage Rolex scene has gone is quite depressing really. And as for Instagram and Rolex collectors, either most of them are fakes or these ‘rare’ watches are actually common as muck. I’ve seen people with tables full of supposedl unicorns.

More fool the buyers really.

[JP Chestnut]

I've heard from longtime collectors (guys who started in the 80's) that the vast majority of Newman dials are altered.

[crooky13]

What I find a bit strange is the fact someone is willing to spend a serious amount of money on a Watch without doing their research. Surely they’d have asked for the serial number? A Watch so rare had a good chance of being sold/seen/talked about online so wouldn’t you google the serial? Does that say to you they’d more than likely have been advised into the purchase? Seeing as ‘rare’ watches like this are such a great investment these days it doesn’t really smack much of a purchase by a collector that’s been chasing one for years (who would know the Rolex logo was off and would know the Watch). The fact a random guy that had nothing to do with the Watch manages to find out it’s been faked and re-sold with a bit of googling is laughable for the people who buy this type of thing.

Makes you wonder how many of these things are created and sold to unsuspecting people who just believe what they’re told. Let’s hope it doesn’t turn out to have something to do with the well known restorers in the Rolex world.

The whole way the vintage Rolex scene has gone is quite depressing really. And as for Instagram and Rolex collectors, either most of them are fakes or these ‘rare’ watches are actually common as muck. I’ve seen people with tables full of supposedl unicorns.

More fool the buyers really.

Ageee but most are learning about vintage Rolex all the time (especially me). I pick up a lot of information from places like HODINKEE, so if they stood behind a piece as well as Aurel Bacs then I could see how someone would easily defer to them (and their supposed knowledge)

[JP Chestnut]

Ageee but most are learning about vintage Rolex all the time (especially me). I pick up a lot of information from places like HODINKEE, so if they stood behind a piece as well as Aurel Bacs then I could see how someone would easily defer to them (and their supposed knowledge)

One for their first watch sales was a totally misrepresented vintage speedmaster. They suck.

[WORKSIMON]

Surely they know the ownership path of the watch between the two sales and they would be able to determine exactly who altered the dial and when ? Perhaps revealing the person who altered it would be the best thing to come out of the situation.

[bobbee]

Ageee but most are learning about vintage Rolex all the time (especially me). I pick up a lot of information from places like HODINKEE, so if they stood behind a piece as well as Aurel Bacs then I could see how someone would easily defer to them (and their supposed knowledge)

Perhaps reading the "Bring a brain" threads on WUS f11, or on Watchlords would change your mind.
The dink are blatant profiteers whose knowledge about vintage has been blown out of the water.

[MrBanks]

I follow Perezscope on IG and he seems a very knowledgeable person when it comes to all things vintage, and has no qualms about calling out fakes when he sees it.

[bobbee]

I follow Perezscope on IG and he seems a very knowledgeable person when it comes to all things vintage, and has no qualms about calling out fakes when he sees it.

Try his website:

https://perezcope.com/sitemap/

He knows Panerai very well.