Show Us Your (Vintage) Smiths
Let's be seeing them then!
The English ones (Deluxe, Astral, Everest, Imperial) and the lesser Welsh one (Empire).
I'll kick it off with this little number.
1953/4 Smiths Deluxe - one of the first 17 jewel centre seconds movements (basically the same as the earlier 1215 with the subseconds at 6 o'clock -- this one even has the "15" overstamped with "17" and a low serial number).
Horn (also called pagoda) lugs - not as nice as the heavy Dennison cases but nicer than the simple snap-back Smiths-cased ones.
Lovely blued steel "sword" hands with lume infill (though oddly, the seconds hand is missing from the cannon pinion).
Dial is in reasonable condition and it keeps good time.
A joy to wear with a tweed jacket.
Nice case on that second one!
Nice A153.
I'm not impressed with the offhand "lesser" moniker ;)
In-house, Welsh-made movements (even if some did contain some Swiss-made parts) are hardly to be sniffed at.
Did you know there was a ladies version of the Everest...?
[url=https://flic.kr/p/kuoiHe]
The Welsh Smiths watches were first produced in the Anglo Celtic Factory at Ystradgynlais starting around 1948 or so. This factory was a joint venture between Smiths, Ingeroll and Armstrong Vickers. The intention was to produce "popular" watches. By 1969 the Factory was wholly owned by Smiths and known internally as the Empire Factory after the watch line they produced. The first watches produced were pocket watches with the 19 ligne calibre "PY" they were sold as Smiths Empire and as Ingrsoll Triumph. They were to the same design as an earlier Ingersoll movement that was assembled from imported parts. By 1949 a wristwatch range with a 13 ligne movement designated calibre RY was in production. This was a 5 jewel watch with a Roskopf pin pallet.
This is a 19 jewel "Everest" model produced in Cheltenham.
Last edited by aldfort; 12th July 2014 at 17:48.
I feel lucky to have found this one. its exactly the style I like and its in pretty good shape, a little sun damage to the lower part of the dial but not too bad. There's a bit of an ugly nick in one of the lugs but not too bad also.
[IMG][/IMG]
Is that an A460 - Antarctic model?
Wow. Thank you, I had no idea. That's the first time I've ever heard that name.Originally Posted by Broussard
Update: I did some googling and found this ad for an Antarctic, and mine certainly matches. I dont have a tool to open the back (i let my watch guy seal'em tight and I dont interfere!) but I did see the movement when I first bought it ten years ago and it "looks" the same.
http://www.smithswatches.com/product...serviced-gwo-2
Last edited by MikeP; 12th July 2014 at 17:47.
Yeah, or "lesser" as I more succinctly put it. To be fair, I think there are some Welsh 19 jewel movements (iirc), but I don't know how Welsh they really are (cf. the "imported parts" bit above). As a rule of thumb, the Smiths that say "Made In England" are better; the ones that say "Great Britain" - not so much.
Looks like it! Dennison screwback case?
Yes! Dunno about Dennison but its a screwback.
You guys have really made my Saturday. I bought it basically as Junk off ebay (it was sold with 2 other non-working watches) and had my watch guy get it working. I've loved it for years and treated it as something special just because of being Made In England.
:)
There were plans to produce 17 jewel movements in Wales from the mid 60's. Prototypes were made in a range of sizes but only a 10.5 lignes made it to production AFAIK. The calibre was designated "Streamline" but I've never seen one. Some sources suggest this was a 7 jewel rather than 17 jewel movement.
That's great! If it's a screwback it's a Dennison, made in Birmingham about 50 miles north of Cheltenham (where the watch was made). Some people collect Dennison cased watches as a category in themselves (D. cased-up some Swiss imports, including Omega and Rolex, in the 1950's -- something to do with import duty, quota, tax, tariffs etc. I think it was a loophole to import movements rather than watches.) Inside of caseback probably says Dennison Aquatite or somesuch.
Nice piece! Not very valuable (few Smiths are: the automatics and W10s always go for a lot though) but I love them!
Anyway, I'm no expert, I just like old Smiths. An expert will be along shortly!
Yes - looks like an A460 Antarctic of crica 1960 vintage to me. "Cheltenham" Smiths are becoming quite collectable.
Last edited by aldfort; 12th July 2014 at 18:06.
A few of mine
Now sold
And some old ad's I've picked up along the way
Can't post a pic at the mo as photobucket is down for maintenance. However here's a link to my Step Dad's Smith Astral which I repaired and serviced a couple of years back.
http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...ghlight=smiths
Cheers,
Gary
Last edited by Omegary; 13th July 2014 at 17:36.
Anyone got the Barrie Smith book about Smiths Watches?
If so, could they have a look at the pages for 1953 / 4 and identify my watch in the OP?
Ta!
From what I can gather one of Smiths' rarest pieces... A family heirloom, 1963 Smiths Everest from 25 Years of Service at Bristol Siddeley (Bristol Aero-Engines and Armstrong Siddeley Motors merger). 18ct gold 36mm case, 16mm lugs, with Smiths in-house 16 jewel movement uprated to 18 jewels - supposedly their finest movement.
Dial and hands say A453 from 1953 Case says A153 from 1954 but this is Smiths we are talking about so might be a transitional model.
Looks like an A520/E as listed in the 1964 catalogue possibly made to special order for AS. However the upgrading of the Calibre 400 movement to 18 jewel was quite common. The later version of the Calibre 400 being the 17 jewel version. This watch was however more than twice the price of almost every other Everest listed in 1964
Last edited by aldfort; 12th July 2014 at 20:41.
THANKS!
That fits with the movement serial number of C150931, which according to the info below is '53-4.
-------------
Dating of the ‘English-made’ Smiths watches
Unfortunately there is no published ‘system’ for dating Smiths watches but if the case is solid gold then it’s probably best to use the hallmark date letter – this holds true throughout the production period 1947 to 1970. Beware that many Smiths watches have been re-cased and sometimes movements have been repaired with cannibalized parts so it is all a bit of a minefield. However, the following observations should help in ascertaining the date of production:-
Production started in 1947 and the early ones had just ‘Smiths’ on the dial. The movements were nickel not gilt, were sub-second and were marked with an engraved serial number which initially had NO PREFIX LETTER
1948 saw the introduction of the prefix letter to the serial number – starting with A but within the year a ‘B’ and finally a ‘C’ was used.
1952 – DeLuxe appears on the dial – movement serials still have ‘C’ prefix which continues sequentially until 1959. There is quite a ‘spread’ in the serial numbers c.f. dates suggesting that some movements and/or cases were stored for a significant time before use.
1953 – the 17J centre second movement arrives – usually the movement serial is prefixed with a JC but the serial number is in the same sequence as the sub second range
1958 – Shockproofing is introduced to the DeLuxe range but initially the dials do not state this. The top-of-the-range 18J was Shockproofed in 1955 as was the cheap ‘pin-pallet’ range.
1958 – the 19J Imperial calibre 0104 is introduced – no serial numbers are ever used on the Imperials – just the calibre and batch number – sometimes. Imperials are always shockproof.
1959 – DeLuxe dials now marked ‘SHOCKPROOF’
1959/60 – DeLuxe movements are no longer serial numbered – just the batch number is used. The last serial number is ~C46xxxx
1959 – The Astral is introduced – no serial numbers are used on Astral movements – just the batch number. Astrals are always shockproof.
1961 - The 25J Automatic movement (based on the Imperial) is introduced
1960 to1962 - Imperial, DeLuxe and Astral continue with just batch numbers on movements and are difficult to date at this point.
1963 – Some DeLuxe and all Imperial models are rebranded as EVEREST. Rebranded Imperials have a calibre number 0104E or 10104E. Astral range stays as it was. The 25J Automatic calibre number is 10144G.
1964 – Astral dial script is changed to ‘SMITHS ASTRAL’ in line. Previously the ‘Astral’ was printed in italics below the name ‘Smiths’.
1964 – The old 27CS 17J centre second movement is modified to become a ‘slimline’ movement in line with the then current trend for slim watches. This slimline movement becomes THE standard for all the centre second models.
1965 – The calibre number is introduced to all watches – stamped next to the balance.
60461E is the 15J sub second
60464E is the slimline 17J centre second
60465E is the slimline 17J centre second with calendar
1967 – 60466E (slimline 17J centre second with hacking) is introduced. Smiths GS4701 Military Watches appear and use this movement
1968 – 60474E (slimline 17J centre second with calendar – maybe hacking as well) is introduced for the CM4501 Astral Diver. The 60467E (calendar) is also introduced but I don’t know the difference between this and the earlier 60465E calendar. The 60471E 16J sub second is introduced
If you use the hallmark date letter from gold cased DeLuxe watches as the dating medium, it is possible to get some idea of the serial numbering sequence (please bear in mind that there is sometimes a significant overlap as watch movements and cases were stored before use) – anyway it goes something like this:-
Pre 1948 – no prefix letter used with serial number
1948 – A, B and C prefix used.
Year serial number
1947/48 C794
1948/49 C32208
1950/51 C53225
1951/52 C106845
1952/53 C143852
1953/54
1954/55 C204851
1955/56 C253061
1956/57 C340318
1957/58 C356042
1958/59 C408323
1959/60 C445920
This is just a 'first attempt' at dating Smiths and hopefully as more information becomes available it will become more accurate
source: http://www.thewatchforum.co.uk/index...ic=50202&st=60
Here's another quick movement shot:
Last edited by Broussard; 13th July 2014 at 11:41.
Your watch seems to have something stuck on it...
Lovely watches, chaps!
Amazing, and a little bit sad really, to think that England and Wales used to produce such quality timepieces, not so long ago...
Any more with any more?
Gotta be some nice old pieces out there.
The acrylic glass is cracked.
It also has a replacement movement and mercedes hands.
Nice oneI feel lucky to have found this one. its exactly the style I like and its in pretty good shape, a little sun damage to the lower part of the dial but not too bad. There's a bit of an ugly nick in one of the lugs but not too bad also.
[IMG]
Do you know what is the name of the model?A few of mine
Here's my diver and very proud to own a real English watch!
Smiths "Cambrian" from 1964, made in Gt Britain, 21 jewel manual w/ date
Those Astral divers are fascinating. Presume case was bought in (seems to share a great many characteristics with other divers of the time). Interesting bezel - see also a countdown version.
^^^^ very nice
Welsh? Swiss movement? English?
I may need to re-think my opinion of the Welsh Smiths!
(PS note how I refrained from quoting the preceding post -- and thus reproducing the entire photo again immediately below. That is a bugbear of mine!)
I think the case on the Smiths Astral diver is the Seiko 62MAS case -- my guess is that when Seiko brought out the 6105 they had these cases spare. Just a guess though. I raised the question here a while back:
http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.ph...=Jaquet+Girard
Which led to this:
"The Smiths Astral Diver for example, would appear to use exactly the same case as the Seiko; indeed, so would watches from the likes of Ulysse Nardin, Jaquet-Girard, Rodania and others. All these watches are I believe post 1965 and I have even postulated that Seiko sold a large stock of raw cases into Europe early after the introduction of the 62MAS – I assume that there is some chance of this for the following reason: within two months or so of production, the crown tube and crown of the 62MAS were changed and replaced with much beefier affairs (certainly, most images you will see of the 62MAS show the big crown model) – could Seiko have had a large stockpile of small crown tube cases to dispose of?"
from here: http://watcharama.com/smiths-diver-p...ew-seiko-6105/
Cambrian Smiths were Welsh. Nice cases, still the "lesser" movements. I believe they manufactured almost everything in the two Welsh factories - including solid gold cases for the English watches (possibly in the Enflield plant).
Does anybody have a Smiths Imperial automatic?
It is a grail for me so I would love some pictures :)
I would be *extremely* surprised if the Smiths case were the same as the 62MAS, but nice story, nonetheless. What's the height on the Astral? Looks a lot slimmer than a Seiko - similar to the generic Schild divers made for Aqualung / Spirotechnique etc. But I could be wrong. I usually am...
Agreed. I want one.
But did they not have "Smiths" on the dial? Was "Astral" a brand they were developing rather than just a model?
I'd concur that the watch was entirely made in the two plants in the Gurnos (In S Wales). There is some evidence to suggest that the Enfield factory, which was always wholly owned by Smiths and right next door to Anglo Celtic made a lot of parts for Cheltenham, certainly gold cases were made there. I'm not sure the upgraded 17 jewel movement could be described as lesser although I believe it was a derivative of the original 5 jewel. Sadly the Cambrian production run seems to have been shortlived.
The big "tell" for the Welsh made watches, of course, is the "Made in Great Britain" rather than "Made in England" on the dial.
Usually Smith watches did have Smiths on the dial but the range was huge and it's always hard to say with certainty that a dial is not original just because it does not match any of the catalogue images. The history of this company is already partly lost to us in a little under 70 years.
Deluxe, Astral, Imperial etc. were all model ranges that Smiths used from time to time. But their marketing was confused back in the day and is capable of leaving the enthusiast confused now. It's no better looking at the calibres as a guide as these too came in a range of qualities as has been mentioned.
Some of the divers say "Smiths Astral" others just "Astral"
Some have count-up bezel numbering, some count-down.
No idea why.
There's one on ebay the moment. "Everest" marque, not Imperial, but same movement.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Classic-Vi...item3ce45428dd
Last edited by Rev-O; 16th July 2014 at 18:09.
There's one on ebay the moment. "Everest" marque, not Imperial, but same movement.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Classic-Vi...item3ce45428dd
I retract my "lesser" jibe - at least for these ones!
The 5 and 7 jewel Empire models are crap though.
Does anyone know what was made at the Smiths factory in Cricklewood, north west London? During WW2 at least I think it might have made clockwork bomb timers but not sure what else during or after.
My grandfather worked there and was presented with a gold Smiths on, I think, retirement.
Last edited by markrlondon; 16th July 2014 at 20:51.
Domestic clocks, from memory.
Just looked it up in "Smiths Domestic Clocks" - "between the wars it produced clocks & instruments for S Smith & Sons (Motor Industries) Ltd. During the second World War it produced aircraft instruments."
Seems post-war it continued to make instruments and clocks.
"By 1951 the factory had reached its target of two million clocks per year..."
Part of the factory was re-purposed to make synthetic watch and clock jewels.
Last edited by Broussard; 16th July 2014 at 20:23.
Astral (and indeed "Empire" and even "Enfield" for clocks) was a name acquired by Smiths through acquisition. Perhaps, towards the end, it still carried a certain caché even without the Smiths branding...
Last edited by Broussard; 16th July 2014 at 20:51.
One of the main reasons I was drawn to Smiths were the memories of various car dashboards from my youth. The dials of my old triumph spitfire in particular, and then later MG midget.
How did the vehicle instrument business tie in with the watches?
Thanks, most interesting.
I remember the building from my childhood. They were eventually pulled down and turned into a retail park. Ho hum.
Also timer fuses for bombs were made there during the war. As mentioned Smith's acquired several companies that made or could make watch and clock components. Until the war Cricklewood was the main manufacturing site. Cheltenham started out as a shadow factory at the outbreak of war and turned to watch making after the war ended.
I have never seen the model in any Smiths advert's or catalogues and just about every watch I have seen is an ICI or IMI long service reward. I wonder if they were sold exclusively to these companies, which were enormous employers at the time and I suspect had many, many employees who spent their lives working for the company and thus received a watch as a retirement gift. Mine is in a silver Dennison case, hallmarked 1958.
The only cushion case I can find in Barrie Smith's book is the B207. A 15 jewel De Luxe ladies watch in the '53 and '54 catalogues.
When I bought the Smiths book I couldn't find the sterling-cased cushion models or a Smiths Mercury which I had at the time - with an unusual, moiré silk looking dial and a loupe over the date window. I wrote to Barrie Smith via the publisher but he didn't know anything about these models.
there's two different cushion ones for sale here: a silver ICI (on page 2) and a Benson chrome and steel (i.e. silver coloured) on page 1.
http://www.smithswatches.com
HTH
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