None of my last three cars have been very powerful. 190/ 150 and the current SLC 201 BHP . But all of them have been a source of embarrassment especially on M roads .......they all exceed the speed limits so effortlessly. Driving is 10% pleasure and 90% watching the speedo. As I say even these fairly modest cars are just so fast, what drivers do with their constant quest for more power is beyond my understanding. An excuse used to be more power for overtaking, but these days on normal roads when was the last time you performed that manoeuvre, all cars seem to travel at or just above the national speed limits.
I live in a small cul -de-sac of about 20 houses. Guy on the end has a Ferrari, next door neighbour an M5 BMW, and across the road a bloke with an SL 63 AMG. All these are about 500bhp. Oh and round the corner is a guy with a Ford Focus, don't know how powerful, but it sounds like a Formula 1 when he drives past.
Forums are full of threads from people requiring re mapping tuning etc, why? Is it because they really need the power, if so why, or is it they feel challenged in certain physical appendages.
Now if anyone mentions track days fine, but what percentage of owners undertake that on other then an infrequent occasion?
No, I feel even with my modestly powered car a constant frustration, keeping it ( and me) in check. In the past I have been just as mad for power as the next petrol head,, but that was in the days when driving speeds were not enforced so much, a police car had to clock you and if he did it was your stupidity in not spotting him .....and even if you were caught a friendly warning was not unusual. But now with so many cameras it's just doesn't seem worth the worry of waiting for postie after every trip down the motorway.
Mind you, I was in Mercedes the other day, an SLS took my eye......and it wasn't just the fabulous matt silver grey paint finish that attracted me. :)
Last edited by BrianT; 8th January 2018 at 11:19.
I often feel the same - I certainly don't drive anything exotic or overly powerful; a bog standard BMW 335d with circa 300bhp and around 6s 0-60 time.
At the NSL it doesn't feel much different to doing 1/2 that speed. I find that to really open it up, you have to be doing stupid speeds for UK roads - though the 425 ftlbs can put a smile on my face every now and again.
The car that I had the most "fun" driving was, dare I day it, an MX5 that I owned a couple of years ago.
Power to Weight is important, not just power.
Personally, I'm not a fan of big, heavy cars with huge engines, but it seems the 'Top Trumps' factor is popular with many people who should be able to see past that.
It seems that the German manufacturers, especially, are involved in a kind of Arms race where they need to provide their cars with ever increasing BHP for no real reason (the argument that you can go any speed you like on the Autobahn is an ever diminishing one and they've had a voluntary 155 MPH limit for years!) other than bragging rights.
The obsession with 'Ring lap times and the motoring press' enthusiasm to test even the most mundane shopping trolley and SUV on race circuits is a factor too.
In reality, what you get are cars which are remote and uninvolving and too fast for the majority of real world roads, certainly at legal speeds.
On the positive side, when you do crash, you're more likely to walk away...
There are still a few great cars out there, but the numbers are declining year on year and it's been going on for decades...
That said, best car I've driven was a Ferrari 458 Speciale, but not because it had N hundred BHP, but because its responses were instant
M
Last edited by snowman; 8th January 2018 at 11:59.
Get something with thin tyres and balanced handling.
My old Mini Cooper was great fun on a wet roundabout at 20mph. Think the 1.3 engine had around 70bhp.
It spent its life below the speed limit.
Driving anything with an excessive amount of power involves a certain amount of restraint. Opportunities to give it some welly do seem to be declining but if you are choosy about the time & place you can still have a bit of fun, which doesn't necessarily have to involve stretching the speed limits much. Over the years I've gravitated more towards cars (and bikes) that give a decent sensation of driving rather than because they are outright fast. For me it's mostly about the engine, having had several V-twin bikes which sounded gorgeous, and now a supercharged v8 Jaaag which also sounds fantastic. I can have fun in the mid-range just rolling on and off the throttle in the twisties, hardly using the brakes and enjoying the sound & feel rather than it being all about speed. Just takes a slightly different mindset.
Quite bizarrely, driving Mrs R's Fiat Panda twinair is great fun. There's something rewarding about getting 'a lot out of a little'..Originally Posted by AlphaOmega
I had a Fiat 500 last year as a courtesy car, that was also great fun with impressive corner speed. That said, it would be tiring on a long journey having to spank it everywhere.
Modern cars have to be "safe", so they are heavy, over-tyred, under-steered and consequently boring to drive. Excess power helps a bit but it is like adding hot water to the bath once you've dipped into it, it is never enough to recapture the first experience.
And then there's the Clarkson effect...
Yep, fair comment. Luckily, we've got a powerful generic Eurobarge for those longer journeys. But the little Panda has made me fall in love again with driving, something I never would have thought for a minute.
For a couple of years I had a Pug 106 Rallye, complete with short ratio box and super revvy engine. It was an awesome B-road tool, punching well above its weight. However, I once had to drive down to Portsmouth in it (500 mile round trip) and remember sitting at 75 on the motorway with the motor nudging 5000rpm. My ears are still ringing! Still wish I'd kept it though. Not much grip, but a great chassis, engaging motor and steering which made you feel like you were holding onto the front hubs.
Had far more fun in my 1.0 Toyota Yaris than i ever did in my 330d BMW.
Looking forward to a go in the new VW Up GTi
Got about 470BHP in the Mustang.......currently looking at Edelbrock supercharger that’ll give 700BHP at the wheels...
Why????
Because I can and it’s fun...😎
Daily driver is a 15 year old Yaris 1.0VVT.....Love it. I call it the little car that can👍
I drive a Jaguar XF with a 5l petrol engine and am ashamed to admit I have no idea how many bhp it makes. What I do know is that it puts a smile on my face with the ease with which it goes from a comfortable cruiser to something with a bit of bite!
The whole car industry has adopted this stupid muscle car type mentality for their "drivers cars". Increased safety/weight and the wide spread application of things like electric power steering and nannying traction control systems has robbed drivers of many of the enjoyable sensations "drivers cars" used to offer and so manufacturers have replaced them with ridiculous roller coaster type acceleration. The trouble with this is that once you've launch controlled your RS6 (for example) for the 10th time the novelty starts to wear off. So many people stage 1 remap to get that sensation again... then that gets boring so they go stage 2 etc. People have forgotten what makes driving fun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfDHULZZjpQ
Mazda Mx-5
Someone told me standing in the shower tearing up fifty pound notes is fun. Didn't understand that one either.
But I return to my original question.
Is there any practical for anyone to drive cars with so much power? In what conceivable circumstance would you be able to actually use that amount of power?
The little MX5 has already been mentioned. I would suggest that only 1% of drivers can drive that 120 ish BHP car at anything like it's potential. So what the hell one does with 700 is beyond me.
Different tools for different job;
I've an Mx-5 & Mk1 Mr2 both under 140bhp, & I've also a 470bhp AMG.
Can you guess which one took 4 blokes & weeks kit to LeMans in total comfort & ease?
For me with the AMG its the way the torque is delivered in a compromised package that is great fun.
Agree 100% with the OP, the quest for more power is pointless unless you genuinely do track days. More fun could be had in the past when roads were quieter and speed cameras didn`t exist; anything with 100bhp/ton was fast enough to be very entertaining in those days (late 70s).
Why the quest for more power?.......it's yet another of society's cock-measuring contests.
Paul
(The Lost Art of) Overtaking safely does require a decent amount of power on today's roads. This may occasionally result in the speed limit being exceeded for a short time (not me obviously, but a mate of my uncle), but that isn't in itself dangerous, and certainly not as dangerous as attempting an overtake in an underpowered car can be.
(Of course it's all relative - I agree that the latest wave of cars with 700+ BHP are a bit mad, and very hard to enjoy safely on public roads.)
In a nut-shell.
"Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."
'Populism, the last refuge of a Tory scoundrel'.
That's a rather lazy argument against anything one doesn't like though, from watch sizes to TV shows to awards ceremonies to the bespokeness and expensiveness of ones suits or shoes.
Isn't it rather that it's very easy to generate more power, especially with turbocharged engines, as the cars get bigger and heavier and less engaging to drive, rather than engineer in something as ephemeral as 'feel' or 'enjoyment'?
It's easier for manufacturer X to outdo manufacturer Y with N% more horsepower in their equivalent model (a small number of which will be sold as the majority will buy the 1.2 3 cylinder or the 2.0 diesel still) than it is to make it more entertaining or more efficiently packaged.
While the majority of the motoring press seems more interested in doing "powaaaaaaaar" slides around race circuits in supercars than bemoaning these power-steroid-enhanced leviathans are little fun to drive, manufacturers will be able to continue down this path.
I read Evo and nearly every month, there's a new 2 tonne car with 500+ BHP which they dutifully report is 25 KG lighter than its predecessor and has 1.5% more BHP - Who cares? No-one will feel the difference (and probably option it away anyway) and the predecessor had the same dead electric steering and was more than fast enough anyway!
Grrrrr!!!
M
Just because you have 4/5/6/700bhp on tap doesn't mean you have to try and use it all the time. Yes the country has speed cameras but there are still plenty of places where you can put your foot down a bit - albeit not keep it there! Having a surfeit of power, as hinted at by paulpsz008, makes big mileages, or carrying a full load, effortless. Doesn't have to be all about peak performance. One of the attractions of TDI's in recent years has been their huge mid-range torque, and a large V8 is very similar in that respect but without sounding like a transit van.
I like driving, whether it be in a fast or slow car. I don't need a daily driver so I can be fussy and don't have to think about making a comfortable car go fast. I now only have three cars, all of which are modified and all of which go faster than standard. I also use my wife's 1.2-litre, 69bhp Fiat 500, which requires huge run-ups to overtake anything at all but is huge fun to hustle along and extract every little bit of momentum. The Forester is the sensible family car, currently 245bhp for 1,600kg. A heavy car in my book, but then so's the Fiat (over 1,000kg!), something that annoys the pants off me.
The MX-5 is where the fun's all at, I've had adjustable dampers fitted along with better wheels, new tyres and so on. Most importantly I've had a plug-and-play ECU fitted which has transformed the power delivery. It now has 125bhp (standard when new was 120, before the ECU was fitted three weeks ago it was on around 115) and I've been sorely tempted to squeeze a few more bhp out of it with a couple of simple engine mods but I'm going to have it turbocharged in a month or two's time. It will have 180bhp as standard with a switch on the dash to take it to 230-240bhp. Why? Well, it handles so well (just over 900kg) and while the new ECU has given it some extra mid-range and lots of extra top-end ooomph, it can take a lot more and now I have the ECU it's an easy operation.
Almost all of my MX-5 driving is on quiet or deserted A- and B- roads and it's best used on roads with lots of bends. It's not much fun over 80mph and the turbo will kick in somewhere around 2,000 - 2,500rpm so there'll be a lot of instant power.
Motorway driving is dull and there are lots of speed cameras and unmarked police cars, which is how it should be. All the fun's to be had on the open road late at night.
And yes, the MX-5 will also receive a roll bar and uprated brakes and I'll be taking it on trackdays.
"A man of little significance"
If it’s beyond you.....you’ll never understand so no point wasting my time explaining.... although I do like a bit of drag racing, and the odd track day
I’m quite happy with my penis size by the way... then again a bit more girth might help, but unfortunately a powerful car isn’t the answer
If anyone works in the automotive industry, correct me if I am wrong: why don’t the car makers bother with specific region tuning? I don’t need my old suv to work in minus or plus 40 degrees. So, map it to work in this country. Before I had mine mapped, it was pig on hills and traffic. Up and the gears all the time! Now, stage one tune later, turbo comes in sooner, torque curve smoother, and much much nicer to drive.
Improves fuel economy with a better more effective burn.And lowers pollution of course!
Sounds good - what's the downside, lower reliability?
It’s a good point.... I had my old Ducato camper van “chipped” for more torque, made it so much easier to drive, and 30mpg on a long run compared to 27mpg before...
Spot on!
I have a Subaru BRZ (GT86 equivalent) with 200bhp, rear wheel drive and skinny tyres &, in the 5 years that Ive owned it, Ive never been bored or wished that I had more power.............
I have ticked the big power box though & yes its mostly frustration and dangerous.............track days were the only outlet!
Cheers
Paul
? No..dont see why it should. Certainly not in my experience..
Those 'flying machines' are only useful(...) in Germany. But the quality of the road surface is so bad over there, that you will think twice before you push the pedal! Furthermore: 'Strassenarbeiten' that stretch for more than 20 miles are quite common these days in Germany. So yes, you're allowed to go fast, but no, you can't/won't try. As a result: useless power.
Over here, speeding is very expensive: 20km speeding (13 miles too fast) is 162 euros; speeding more: 30 kms too fast is at least 271 euros and your driver's license is taken by the police.
Menno
Last edited by thieuster; 8th January 2018 at 21:23.
^^^^ I agree... the autobahn’s are certainly not what people believe them to be when it comes to being able to drive fast...
I had my old TVR up to 140 ish, and it was all I could do to hang on to the wheel... cruising at a more sensible 120 was fine though...
The Mustang hit the limiter at 160 and was rock solid......limiter has since been removed, and I’m going back in May so it’ll be interesting to see what she’ll do...
I drive a 1.2 litre grey vw
Sometimes I wish it had more ponies but I don't want to die.
It is a fast carwhen it goes slow amd in a straight line. Round corners it is pure adrenaline. All over.
Sent from my [device_name] using TZ-UK mobile app
The simple answer to ‘why’ is ‘because’.
If you like engineering then you’ll probably want to drive something that pushes the boundaries a little, be that in terms of handling, power, styling etc.
I’ve always gone for the performance variant of all the cars I’ve owned because I like driving something that is more powerful and quicker than the run-of-the-mill variants.
For example, when I had an MGB I had a GTV8, when I had a TR6 it had to be a 150BHP CP series, when I ran MK2 Golfs they were GTI 16 valvers, when I had an Impreza it had to be a WRX STI. Now I have an M6 with the N/A V10 that pushes 507BHP as standard before the re-map, performance induction and exhaust, lightened pulleys etc.
I drive it because I like the sound and performance. If I want to drive a little run around then I have an E30 323 for that. It’s horses for courses and if you don’t understand then fine, but don’t knock it.
I'm certainly not knocking it. I was merely suggesting that it must be very frusrtrating to drive around in a car and not be able to use a fraction of it's potential. My Mercedes SLC with only 200 BHP and 360 ft lbs torque is bad enough.
But it does seem that it's a rather pointless excercise, car makers produce more and more powerful cars, customers clamour to buy them and then spend shed loads of money to get even more power, and the authorities respond with more and more controls limiting their usage.
Last edited by BrianT; 8th January 2018 at 22:36.
Rather ironic isn't it on a (mainly) luxury watch forum, we're discussing producers making more and more powerful/expensive/complicated* products and customers clamouring to buy them?
A bit like the £5000 Rolex vs £5 Casio argument?
Live and let live is my motto; if it floats your boat, is legal and doesn't do any harm - go for it!
*delete as required
Now I think you might be trolling! Are you really suggesting that owners of powerful cars don't enjoy them?!?
https://youtu.be/OkYA7GHc8HU
This is me. Cost £12k, no limits, cops or lanes... lots of fun!
Got bored with fast cars and all of the limitations on them now.
Last edited by 33JS; 8th January 2018 at 23:11.
You can apply the same mentality to watches or lots of things. Why pay X to have some incredible engineering feat when a G shock will do the job. Why buy a big house, etc
It's about the whole experience. Like watch owning, it's something that either excites you or doesn't. If you are a true petrol-head, just getting in to drive some cars fills you with excitement and anticipation, notwithstanding you observe all speed limits etc. Firing up a V8 (better still a V12) stirs the soul.
So remember, a lot of people in threads on other forums will equally be having this debate over the purpose of having more than one (basic but accurate) watch....you either "get it" or you don't, fine either way
Power doesn't = fun on track days.
For some bizarre reason people often confuse track days with a competitive race where they feel the need to show up with the fastest most powerful car. Nothing worse than showing up in some sort of super expensive 600bhp flagship Kübelwagen and having to give way to sub 200bhp renaults and mazdas all day.
Thank you for putting my thoughts into words!Rather ironic isn't it on a (mainly) luxury watch forum, we're discussing producers making more and more powerful/expensive/complicated* products and customers clamouring to buy them?
A bit like the £5000 Rolex vs £5 Casio argument?
Live and let live is my motto; if it floats your boat, is legal and doesn't do any harm - go for it!
*delete as required
I went from a 261 bhp Z4 roadster to a 450 bhp TT RS and it was the worst thing I ever did, numb steering, vague feedback, boring straight road warrior.
My 2013 R56 Mini JCW @ 208 bhp (stock currently...) is twice the car the TT RS could ever dream to be. So much character.
Good topic.
I bought an Audi S8 at the end of November. My previous car was a c. 350bhp 5 series BMW and there's quite a difference in day to day driving. My driving is either running around locally (I live in a rural area and the school run is a 15 mile round trip) or long distance motorway sessions of 3-400 miles in a day with the occasional A road run.
It's my third A8 - I really like the comfort, space and toys plus the four wheel drive is useful on the often slippery roads where I live. This is the first "fast" one that I've had though. There are definitely times on the motorway where it's absolutely begging to go faster and even a squeeze of the throttle will head up into illegal figures quickly but as long as I can resist the temptation it's extremely quiet and comfortable for the long trips, even relatively economical at high 20s on a run.
The benefit of the power is when pressing on - I just (safely) overtake any slower traffic now and can be past very quickly - time exposed to danger is low. I can save loads of time on a longish A road drive as I'm past the "40 everywhere" Jazz/Juke brigade and on with my trip. It's also relatively fun to drive. No sports car, obviously, but entertaining at times. It took four of us plus a week's luggage around the Yorkshire Dales over Christmas and just shrugged off the weather but lots of cars would do that.
I quite like the engineering that's gone into making something big, comfortable, quiet and fast. A lot of driving isn't much fun so it's at least pleasant to be in a nice place while you do it.
I realise this post makes me sound like a knob with a small penis. Sometimes the truth hurts :-)
Subtle difference: whether you have a £5 casio or a£50K PP, it wont get you banned/ license revoked. Your flash gas guzzler 500bhp monster is more likely to, as you will be tempted to let rip somewhere.
Indeed the watch analogy is rather fragile to say the least. Unless of course someone reported spending £100,000 on a watch then paying Fred £20,000 to make it go faster. But even this would involve the mental health experts rather then upholders of the law.:)
This post did at least for me have a quite serious question.
Last week I joined the M1 in Leeds. I was driving my Mercedes SLC. I slotted in behind a fantastic looking Ferrari, not up on these things but it had a 2016 plate. Anyway we drove in convoy down to junction 36 where I turned off. Our speed had never strayed but had been a steady 75/79 MPH. Yes loads of cars or rather white vans went screaming past but my newly found playmate and I kept within the law.....despite it being so frustrating. And if I in my modest 200bhp 360 lbft car felt a level of frustration I just wondered how the guy in front felt.
That was my original question, levels of frustration and if there is any practical use for these enormously overpowered for purpose cars.
Please don't get me wrong I am rather fond of cars. In the last eighteen months I have bought a Mini Cooper S convertible, a MX5 mk4 and a Mercedes SLC 250d, all new or pre reg. In 60 years of motoring I have owned some now mouth watering cars. Cars some of which have increased in value 500 times and more from what I paid.
The best of the recent three is certainly the little Mazda, it's the Sports Nav 1.5 ltr, about 125bhp, it is so nimble and responsive at around legal speeds, rolls a bit but that's part of the fun.The Mercedes is a very comfortable boulevard cruiser while the Mini is just.... a Mini with 190bhp.
But now I find cars just get better and better in terms of performance, whilst sanction restricting their use get more and more draconian.
I find that frustrating.
Last edited by BrianT; 9th January 2018 at 09:34.
The simple answer is yes, it is frustrating.
I've owned cars that hit the NSL in no time at all. You just can't use it unless you have little regard for the legal repercussions or your own and others personal safety. With my last car it felt like maybe half the performance could be used. For me this really limited the enjoyment of ownership so for the first time ever I replaced my car with something less powerful. However, its still got too much power so next car I'll be going down lower.
Sent from my Swift 2 Plus using Tapatalk
Having had mainly classics (Triumph Dolomite(1850HL and a Sprint), TR7, Acclaim) and via a Rover 100 to a Toyota ST182 Celica (158bhp when new), onto a Celica T-Sport with ~190bhp its a right hoot.
I agree with smaller cars can be real run on a back road, even with less than 100bhp and a lightweight body, but even something with a modest amount of poke (for todays market) like the T-Sport is a revelation when you get it over 6000rpm onto the high lift cam! Warp Speed for the masses!
In the Celica, to get into the lift, in 3rd you are already breaking the speed limit but it is good for overtaking efficiently on A/B roads.
*andy tims is on holiday*
"A man of little significance"
No different though - A Casio will probably tell the time better than a PP, so why 'waste' your money?
I see lots of fast, expensive cars being driven slowly - I expect the drivers let rip now and then, but they stick out like sore thumbs, so it's even harder for them to speed.
However, I'm sure for a lot of people, the pleasure is just in getting in and driving these rarified machines, exactly like owning an expensive PP - It's not rationale, but it appeals to something in people's psyche, and it's not hurting anyone is it?
I'm sure someone will argue that owning a fast cars proves you drive illegally, but that's a different matter altogether - A lot of fast, expensive cars are never driven at all!
M
I don't think it matters much what car you're in. Virtually everything these days will break the speed limit with ease and that's if you're ever lucky enough not to be stuck behind the increasing number of drivers who are so brainwashed about speeding that they never exceed 40mph. Doesn't much matter if you have 100bhp or 500bhp, it's all the same in a traffic jam.
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