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Thread: 2021 America's Cup

  1. #101
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    Interesting to watch, those boats are flying with the hulls raised out of the water.


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  2. #102
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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    Oops!

    ...image...
    From that link:

    ...Every single one of the teams came to help Patriot. They may be fierce competitors, but they are also ultimate sportsmen, and no-one wants to see a team in the kind of situation the American Magic crew were in. Emirates Team New Zealand helmsman Peter Burling was seen pulling and folding a sail onto their support boat. Through this combined effort, the yacht was stabilised and began a slow journey back to their base.

    Well after dark the yacht was hoisted out of the water and the true extent of the damage was revealed. A gaping hole in the port side, just forward of the foil arm. The designers and boat builders will now be working through the night to assess what else is broken in Patriot.

    The AC75 is rammed full of complex electronics, hydraulics, and a ton of technical wizardry that I can only hazard a guess at. As well as the visible damage, all of this will need to be checked, cleaned or replaced and tested. The team have until Friday to get the boat ready for Round Robin 3 or, failing that, the PRADA Cup Semi-Final begins on 29th January. Realistically, at 0-4 after two Round Robins that must be the team's goal.

    Good luck to all at New York Yacht Club American Magic. The America's Cup needs all the teams to be racing to continue this fantastic spectacle.

  4. #104
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    Photos link

    It took ages to stabile the boat (link to NYYCAM statement) before towing it to the dock for it to be lifted out...and there was I wondering what happened to the post race press conference.
    Last edited by PickleB; 17th January 2021 at 14:33.

  5. #105
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    These speeds are phenomenal. Covid has turned the sailing world upside down. Normally, a lot of young sailors would have stayed within the 'confinement' of the Olympic Program. PrMy eparing themselves for Olympic venues to come. My son's 'year' started with 11 sailors. Now, there are only three left. The others went their way: the uni and or other boats.

    That's the moment where different, non-Olympic classes became interesting for young sailors. A few of the original 11 have switched to 69F's. Since it's not endorsed by the Dutch Royal Yachting Association, it's a matter of very, very deep pockets. A few parents have dug deep and have invested in two boats. Needless to say that we didn't. I will not and can not spend > 50K euros/year on a non-Olympic class. But those who did, came up with something great. (My son went the other direction: coaching and he was rather successful: 4 of his young Optimist sailors made it into the Dutch National Optimist Squad).

    The 69F is a 'foiler' as well. This 3-person boat (mixed) is faaaast. Below a video (in Dutch) of the recordbraking 34,9 knots trip. (62+ km/hr). Lars, the guy at the helm later told: "We were going downwind, already doing 28 knots, when I noticed a big gust coming from behind. I steered and I think that I've never had the helm so tight in my hands! The boat kept accelerating!"

    There's a big chance that Covid will change the 'look' on the water. Less white Laser sails, more high performance boats and more foiling.


  6. #106
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    Keeps it interesting. I'm sure they'll be able to effect repairs and get back in the race, thanks to the sponsors.

    A great spectacle.

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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASW1 View Post
    Keeps it interesting. I'm sure they'll be able to effect repairs and get back in the race, thanks to the sponsors.

    A great spectacle.

    Sent from my moto g 5G plus using Tapatalk
    Not so sure. The electronics and hydraulic systems will be ruined.

    I think we are down to two challengers now. Sadly.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASW1 View Post
    Keeps it interesting. I'm sure they'll be able to effect repairs and get back in the race, thanks to the sponsors.

    A great spectacle.

    Sent from my moto g 5G plus using Tapatalk
    There are a great deal of electronics below deck including the foil control system that are restricted (2 only) items supplied as standard to all competitors. Let's hope that their standard of water proofing was sufficiently high.

  9. #109
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    Terry Hutchinson comment:

    “Dean made the correct decision to tack around the left gate, keep us in the pressure and just try to deliver us down to the finish. We got hit by a reasonably big gust. When you're racing the boat, you're racing the boat.”

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    Terry Hutchinson comment:

    “Dean made the correct decision to tack around the left gate, keep us in the pressure and just try to deliver us down to the finish. We got hit by a reasonably big gust. When you're racing the boat, you're racing the boat.”
    He has to back his helm but it was an unnecessary high tariff manoeuvre that has cost them dearly.

    Goody highlighted it would be a challenge, and they obviously didn’t spot the new pressure, plus the port back stay was not released ..a catalogue of issues. Should have given away a little and gone for the other bouy and gone with the easier bear away. They had enough lead not to try that in those conditions.
    Last edited by Montello; 17th January 2021 at 19:15.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    He has to back his helm but it was an unnecessary high tariff manoeuvre that has cost them dearly.

    Goody highlighted it would be a challenge, and they obviously didn’t spot the new pressure, plus the port back stay was not released ..a catalogue of issues. Should have given away a little and gone for the other bouy and gone with the easier bear away. They had enough lead not to try that in those conditions.
    As skipper and team leader, of course he must. He's also unlikely to blame the tactician for not spotting the shift in conditions as he doubles up with as a grinder and could well have his eyes inside the boat during the manoeuvre.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    As skipper and team leader, of course he must. He's also unlikely to blame the tactician for not spotting the shift in conditions as he doubles up with as a grinder and could well have his eyes inside the boat during the manoeuvre.
    He IS the tactician...

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    He IS the tactician...
    You spotted the implication of my post...

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    You spotted the implication of my post...
    I think Goody had spotted it but is probably too junior in the afterguard to have overruled the call.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    I think Goody had spotted it but is probably too junior in the afterguard to have overruled the call.
    He's the main trimmer I believe and so maybe not too junior but, possibly, their command structure is too complex. By that I mean 'who is in change'? When the helmsman seems to be calling the shots and the skipper / tactician is grinding so who takes on board input from the guy in charge of the main in order to effect change without a discussion.

    It will be interesting to see if we ever find out why that backstay was still tensioned. Was it a mechanical / electronic control failure or human overload / error?

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    He's the main trimmer I believe and so maybe not too junior but, possibly, their command structure is too complex. By that I mean 'who is in change'? When the helmsman seems to be calling the shots and the skipper / tactician is grinding so who takes on board input from the guy in charge of the main in order to effect change without a discussion.

    It will be interesting to see if we ever find out why that backstay was still tensioned. Was it a mechanical / electronic control failure or human overload / error?
    The manoeuvre looked a late call to me so the runner is likely human error. I’ve watched it a few times and it just looks like a poor decision which lead to poor execution which was punished by a unfortunate nasty gust.

    Mix of many things. Real shame for the competition.

  17. #117
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    "With the boat safely back on land, American Magic is now repairing the boat with a focus on being back on the water in time for the semi-finals which kick off on January 29.

    As a result, Hutchinson confirmed the Americans would not race next weekend in the third and fourth round robins meaning they will enter the knockout stage winless after losing their first four races over the weekend.". https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/spor...-capsize-chaos

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    The manoeuvre looked a late call to me so the runner is likely human error. I’ve watched it a few times and it just looks like a poor decision which lead to poor execution which was punished by a unfortunate nasty gust.

    Mix of many things. Real shame for the competition.
    I've always tried to stay out of comments of how it should be done. I'm not a coach and my life-time competitive sailing results aren't good enough to give me a right to comment better sailors than I am.

    I think you should apply for the next series to become a team member, to compensate for Goody 'being too junior'. Obviously, you have the experience and the knowledge. Having said that, you're the first (at least what I've heard and read) who argues the left/right buoy decision and I can see your argument of 'why taking the risk in this part of the race'.

    But, as you said it: "I watched it a few times" and those guys made a split decision. Perhaps the block release (or whatever mechanism) failed. Things go so incredibly quickly on these boats.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    I've always tried to stay out of comments of how it should be done. I'm not a coach and my life-time competitive sailing results aren't good enough to give me a right to comment better sailors than I am.

    I think you should apply for the next series to become a team member, to compensate for Goody 'being too junior'. Obviously, you have the experience and the knowledge. Having said that, you're the first (at least what I've heard and read) who argues the left/right buoy decision and I can see your argument of 'why taking the risk in this part of the race'.

    But, as you said it: "I watched it a few times" and those guys made a split decision. Perhaps the block release (or whatever mechanism) failed. Things go so incredibly quickly on these boats.
    This is a spectator sport and as fans we can reasonably comment on the event; that isn't an attempt to say I could have done better but it's just part of sport ... it is entertainment after all.

    There is a pecking order of seniority in the after-guard and Goody isn't at the top of that so he is a junior member ... that does not imply he isn't a world class sailor because of course he is which is why he's on the boat.

    I have won World, European and National Championships as an amateur and if the lottery funding had existed when I was young I would have probably been a pro sailor but as a 19 year old I had to go and get an education and a proper job; my parents are not rich. So, I know a little about sailing ...

    Terry Hutchinson has done a 30 minute press conference and touches on the points I made ... maybe watch it; he's a top guy and his conference is masterful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-yvEmEqdBc
    Last edited by Montello; 18th January 2021 at 11:44.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by higham5 View Post
    A chap who lives next door to my mother in law son is in NZ filming this! He is a fully qualified drone pilot but for this race they want water based shots. He travels all over the world filming events but sailing is his preference as he is also a qualified skipper. Living the dream.

    I have been following the Vendee through the Sea Wolves you tube channel. Where is the best place to view follow the AC highlights please

    Steve
    Quote Originally Posted by ASW1 View Post
    "With the boat safely back on land, American Magic is now repairing the boat with a focus on being back on the water in time for the semi-finals which kick off on January 29.

    As a result, Hutchinson confirmed the Americans would not race next weekend in the third and fourth round robins meaning they will enter the knockout stage winless after losing their first four races over the weekend.". https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/spor...-capsize-chaos
    Thanks for reminding me that I signed up on TVNZ some time ago for their news coverage during the earthquakes. If you use a VPN then their coverage offers an alternative commentary and points of view: www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/36th-americas-cup.

  21. #121
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    I have won World, European and National Championships as an amateur and if the lottery funding had existed when I was young I would have probably been a pro sailor but as a 19 year old I had to go and get an education and a proper job; my parents are not rich. So, I know a little about sailing ...
    Yes, I know. I was referring to that when I wrote:

    I think you should apply for the next series to become a team member, to compensate for Goody 'being too junior'. Obviously, you have the experience and the knowledge.
    Although, when re-reading I realise that you can read it as something sarcastic. That was not the intention. I really mean it. Good people with tons of experience are hard to find.

  22. #122
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    If you've got the time then the stern camera videos give you an insight into the onboard dynamic and team communications. Plus you get to watch the main constantly being trimmed.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by thieuster View Post
    Good people with tons of experience are hard to find.
    When I was a teenager I was sailing against people who went on to win Olympic medals and who became pro sailors and joined AC teams ... they chose pro sailing; I went to uni & got a job. I didn't have the financial backing to be a pro sailor.

    I'm still a competitive amateur but the gap in expertise between a pro and a keen amateur is vast ... these guys are really very good. Although I have placed ahead of an Olympic silver medallist in a World Championships in the overall results.

    In the heat of the battle things can still go badly wrong as we have seen and it's amazing how obvious some things look to a spectator which are less clear in the moment when you have the tiller in your hand.

    Fingers crossed America Magic can fix things up and get back on the water for the semis.

  24. #124
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    American Magic Youtube video link: Fight to Save PATRIOT.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    American Magic Youtube video link: Fight to Save PATRIOT.
    Would be one hell of a come back. I hope they get back, the other challengers need the competition to push ETNZ.

  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    Would be one hell of a come back. I hope they get back, the other challengers need the competition to push ETNZ.
    How do you suppose they might complete the round robin tournament. Without AM there are only two races left next weekend. If LR were to win both then they would be tied on 4 points with ITUK. I can only find the stipulation that ''The highest ranked Competitor will be admitted to the Prada Cup Final' and that 'The other two Competitors will race in the Semi Final.' Do they hold another race to establish the highest ranked competitor to break the tie or do they look at the number of losses a team has suffered? Does anyone know, please?

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    How do you suppose they might complete the round robin tournament. Without AM there are only two races left next weekend. If LR were to win both then they would be tied on 4 points with ITUK. I can only find the stipulation that ''The highest ranked Competitor will be admitted to the Prada Cup Final' and that 'The other two Competitors will race in the Semi Final.' Do they hold another race to establish the highest ranked competitor to break the tie or do they look at the number of losses a team has suffered? Does anyone know, please?
    If AM don’t return they will just hold the challenger final at the end of the RR.

    The winner of the RR will progress to the final, 2nd and 3rd will progress to the semi. If AM can compete then 2nd will progress to the final by default to face the winner of the RR. Simple.

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    If AM don’t return they will just hold the challenger final at the end of the RR.

    The winner of the RR will progress to the final, 2nd and 3rd will progress to the semi. If AM can compete then 2nd will progress to the final by default to face the winner of the RR. Simple.
    That I understood...my question was who wins the round robin (and goes through to the PC final) if LR manage to defeat ITUK in their two races scheduled for RR3 and RR4?

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    That I understood...my question was who wins the round robin (and goes through to the PC final) if LR manage to defeat ITUK in their two races scheduled for RR3 and RR4?
    Don’t worry, won’t happen 👍

  30. #130
    I've f-up a few times in exactly the same way as American magic, aggressive round mark at high speed then then bear away with added gust and quickly overpowered, in a laser the classic is getting the main sheet caught up as you gybe and then you are going one way.......splash

    If you can do it in a conventional boat, its much much easier in a flying boat at 30-40 knots

    This is not conventional sailing and it is very very unforgiving, but great to watch

    I was involved in the Americas cup in Rhode island when I was supposed to be doing A levels, 12m class seems very pedestrian now!

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by simon-c View Post
    I've f-up a few times in exactly the same way as American magic, aggressive round mark at high speed then then bear away with added gust and quickly overpowered, in a laser the classic is getting the main sheet caught up as you gybe and then you are going one way.......splash

    If you can do it in a conventional boat, its much much easier in a flying boat at 30-40 knots

    This is not conventional sailing and it is very very unforgiving, but great to watch

    I was involved in the Americas cup in Rhode island when I was supposed to be doing A levels, 12m class seems very pedestrian now!
    Apparently dinghy sailing / racing / tactics are quite relevant to racing the AC75s: www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP1MIIU7Y5g.

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    That I understood...my question was who wins the round robin (and goes through to the PC final) if LR manage to defeat ITUK in their two races scheduled for RR3 and RR4?
    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    Don’t worry, won’t happen 
    Maybe not, but I found my answer in this link: "...if the Italians win both races then they would be in a tie for six points. In this scenario, the Italians would go through to the final as the boat that won the most recent race."

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    Maybe not, but I found my answer in this link: "...if the Italians win both races then they would be in a tie for six points. In this scenario, the Italians would go through to the final as the boat that won the most recent race."
    OK - interesting - you'd have thought they would have split it based on the head to head matches.

    Firstly lets hope the Ineos winning streak continues; if not that they don't get whitewashed during the remain RR.

    Definitely an advantage to have the development time rather than the semi races.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    Maybe not, but I found my answer in this link: "...if the Italians win both races then they would be in a tie for six points. In this scenario, the Italians would go through to the final as the boat that won the most recent race."
    The two races are scheduled for 03h00 GMT (16h00 NZDT) on Saturday and Sunday...link:

    In order to comply with the formality of the Regulations, after finishing the above races both competitors will have to take the start of a “ghost race” vs New York Yacht Club American Magic to allow the Regatta Director to award the point to the relevant team. The “ghost race” will then be suspended just a few minutes after the start. The rule of 25 minutes between the two starts will not apply to these “ghost races”.

    Should INEOS TEAM UK win the Saturday race, the Sunday race result will be redundant as INEOS TEAM UK would be the first classified team of the Round Robins and, as such, will go directly through to the PRADA Cup Final. In that event the two teams will have the choice whether or not to race on Sunday."
    Last edited by PickleB; 20th January 2021 at 21:19.

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    If Ineos win Saturday I expect them to elect not to race Sunday. Bad news for us spectators.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    If Ineos win Saturday I expect them to elect not to race Sunday. Bad news for us spectators.
    You're correct...according to SBA:

    To come out on top [this week-end] buys you time and time in this game is everything. Some upgrades might be an over-night job, others might take three or four days. Winning the Round Robin will buy the team the flexibility to change things you wouldn't have the chance to change otherwise. It's going to be significant in the overall outcome if this Cup.


    There's a rule change whereby a capsize instantly stops the race...see link:

    ...The new safety rule will see a boat instantly ruled out of the race the moment it capsizes to allow quicker rescue assistance.

    Previously the rule said a boat would only be disqualified when it received outside assistance...


    And they're given up on Course A where the capsize happened in favour of a new location that combines other course areas (link) back inside the islands and nearer to the harbour entrance (I suspect that will be good for the spectators).

  37. #137
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    Word is America Magic are well ahead of plan to get back on the water.

  38. #138
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    Congratulations to team UK. Great race. 50,29 knots maximum speed! That was close. Wow...






    Gesendet von iPad mit Tapatalk

  39. #139
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    What a race. Superb performance with a sub par boat. Cunno fixed off was a real handicap.

    Epic sailing performance by GBR.

  40. #140
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    Real question is what watch is SBA wearing. Seems to be on the water too.




    Edits. See. https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...-watch-is-this
    Last edited by Montello; 23rd January 2021 at 18:50.

  41. #141
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    Lots of enthusiasm and compliments between the teams but underneath all that there is still an edge to the competition: YouTube link.

  42. #142
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    Proper edge of the seat racing.

    Sent from my moto g 5G plus using Tapatalk

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    Lots of enthusiasm and compliments between the teams but underneath all that there is still an edge to the competition: YouTube link.
    Yeah, SBA not happy. Certainly seems that ITA and USA are aligned against GBR.

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    Real question is what watch is SBA wearing. Seems to be on the water too.




    Edits. See. https://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.p...-watch-is-this
    I believe it is a Yacht-master (Rolex). He is on record acknowledging that Rolex have made and presented him with his own titanium YM, perhaps it was a black one too (as everyone knows black is the fastest colour).
    Great racing today, I was surprised they thought that was 5m away from being a valid protest in the last moments, I thought it was further swsy than that, despite JS's attempts to make it as close as possible.
    D

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweets View Post
    I believe it is a Yacht-master (Rolex). He is on record acknowledging that Rolex have made and presented him with his own titanium YM, perhaps it was a black one too (as everyone knows black is the fastest colour).
    Great racing today, I was surprised they thought that was 5m away from being a valid protest in the last moments, I thought it was further swsy than that, despite JS's attempts to make it as close as possible.
    D
    There is a 'keep clear border' defined in the racing rules for AC36 (see p3 of this pdf link) that adds to the physical dimensions of the boats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    There is a 'keep clear border' defined in the racing rules for AC36 (see p3 of this pdf link) that adds to the physical dimensions of the boats.

    Spithill was dialing down on the cross and was probably a boat length from making it stick.

    They must have been bricking it approaching the cross on port.

    I’ve watched the race 3 times now, impressive race.

  47. #147
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    Great race from start to finish. That last cross had me on the edge of my seat!

    Sent from my SM-G780F using Tapatalk

  48. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    Spithill was dialing down on the cross and was probably a boat length from making it stick.

    They must have been bricking it approaching the cross on port.

    I’ve watched the race 3 times now, impressive race.
    It seemed to me that LR started steering a bit to port to make the cross closer than it could have been, is that what you mean? I guess the judges spotted he came off the optimum heading to try & draw the penalty.

    Ineos were peaking at nearly 60mph which is pretty incredible. As someone pointed out the tiddly little chase boats need 1350hp to keep up.

  49. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pointy View Post
    It seemed to me that LR started steering a bit to port to make the cross closer than it could have been, is that what you mean? I guess the judges spotted he came off the optimum heading to try & draw the penalty.

    Ineos were peaking at nearly 60mph which is pretty incredible. As someone pointed out the tiddly little chase boats need 1350hp to keep up.
    Yes, he’s allowed to alter course as he wishes to catch them on starboard but if he does change course he needs to give them room to avoid a collision. It’s called a dial down. At the start they sometimes do a dial up and end up head to wind but I’ve not seen them try that on the foilers.

  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by PickleB View Post
    Lots of enthusiasm and compliments between the teams but underneath all that there is still an edge to the competition: YouTube link.
    Quote Originally Posted by Montello View Post
    Yeah, SBA not happy. Certainly seems that ITA and USA are aligned against GBR.
    It may be that the issue is up for resolution:

    • Key rule review looms

      ...To get the rule reviewed - and changed - needs a heavyweight meeting of minds and agreement, something that isn’t always easy in the Cup game.

      The measurement committee, regatta director Iain Murray, chief umpire Richard Slater, who oversees the racing rules of sailing, defender Emirates Team New Zealand, and challenger of record Luna Rossa would need to thrash it out around a table.

      Stuff understands that will happen and there is some urgency on the matter.

      There is a feeling that the rule may be too harsh when it involves tweaks that aren’t improving performance and some leeway should be given in that area to get the balance right between sensible innovations and blatant attempts to get an illegal advantage...

    • At the evening media conference, the issue of INEOS having a Complaint of Non-Compliance, was raised.

      Her offence was over the way a line was lead through a hole in the mainsail.

      The issue was some days old, but nevertheless INEOS are vulnerable to a very pernicious Rule 78, which covers performance enhancing infringements and also those which are a technical breach of the letter of the rules, but have no effect on performance.

      Ainslie claimed that for a second infringement non-speed enhancing draft rules prescribed an automatic disqualification. But that draconian penalty is not in the currently published rule. However, it is believed to be awaiting the sign-off of the Defender, Emirates Team New Zealand, who are understood to be less than enamoured with the approach.

      Bluntly, the class and event do not need this prescriptive approach to rule enforcement. It just reinforces the public perception that first hire into an America's Cup team is a lawyer.

      The Cup is perceived as being litigious, self-indulgent and not particularly exciting...

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